Judges Chapter 11- Did God Demand A Virgin Sacrifice?

[JoeB131]

Nope. God didnt demand anything. A fool made a foolish vow and rather than repent from his vow, carried it out.

Or he was too scared to repent.

He gave this girl a whole month for God to think it over and let him repent. He didn't.

(Again, probably because he doesn't actually exist!)

Then again, why didn't he order Private Ehud Snuffy to ride ahead and make sure that when General Jephy got back, the first thing he met was an appropriate sacrifice....

For someone that doesn't believe, you sure give God the reigns for a lot of our day-to-day.

Not necessarily, but this strikes me as a part where he needed to step in. He just spent a lot of time dissuading his followers from human sacrifice, and here was some guy doing it

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It shows the folly of making a vow without thinking it through. Bit complicated concept for a person that thinks he understands everything and actually knows nothing.

It's not a complicated things at all.

Jephthah's daughter did not deserve to be butchered, dismembered and burned because her father made a rash and foolish vow that violated God's commandments.

Any God who would make a demand that such an oath be fulfilled isn't worthy of anyone's worship.

The problem with trying to reconcile a savage bronze age God with a modern people. You have to do some real mental gymnatistics, and of course, if you are too lazy to do that, just say the person who questions it "doesn't understand" when he opines that a god that demands the murder of children cannot be called "good" in any sense of the word.

She did not deserve to have an idiot for a father, why is that God's fault? Do you blame Him because you do stupid things? Or do you only blame Him for stupid things other people do?

 

[hortysir]

Or he was too scared to repent.

He gave this girl a whole month for God to think it over and let him repent. He didn't.

(Again, probably because he doesn't actually exist!)

Then again, why didn't he order Private Ehud Snuffy to ride ahead and make sure that when General Jephy got back, the first thing he met was an appropriate sacrifice....

For someone that doesn't believe, you sure give God the reigns for a lot of our day-to-day.

Not necessarily, but this strikes me as a part where he needed to step in. He just spent a lot of time dissuading his followers from human sacrifice, and here was some guy doing it

He's also spent thousands of years telling people not to commit Adultery.

But guess what still happens???

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Joe, I think you're a shithead. God didn't ask him to kill his daughter. God didn't reward him for killing his daughter.

In fact, I'd say this reflects a lack of faith on Jephthah's part. The context shows that God was already going to give the victory to the Israelites, before Jephthah's promise. Yet, Jephthah still tried to buy God's blessing (which isn't for sale in the first place) by offering a member of his household as a sacrifice.

God wasn't going to change his plans for Israel based on the idiocy of a bastard.

But yet that God made that bastard Judge of all Israel, and later on, he would go on to slaughter 42,000 members of the tribe of Epharam (A tribe of Israel.)

Thanks for proving you haven't actually read the Bible, you just picked a story you thought proved you are smarter than other people. If you go read Judges 10 you will see that the judge that proceeded Jephthah was Jair, and that Israel did evil in the sight of YHWH after he died. When their enemies overran them they petitioned God for another judge to lead them, and he said no. Israel then put away their idols, but still insisted on doing it their way, and picked out someone they thought would be able to win.

Like I said earlier, it is a bit complicated if I am talking to someone who thinks he knows everything and actually knows nothing. The fact is that you have all the facts wrong.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

But yet that God made that bastard Judge of all Israel, and later on, he would go on to slaughter 42,000 members of the tribe of Epharam (A tribe of Israel.)

God didn't appoint Jephthah as Israel's leader.

No, he just gave him victories... and enjoyed himself some barbeque virgin.

The other white meat!

Did He?

 

[JoeB131]

It shows the folly of making a vow without thinking it through. Bit complicated concept for a person that thinks he understands everything and actually knows nothing.

It's not a complicated things at all.

Jephthah's daughter did not deserve to be butchered, dismembered and burned because her father made a rash and foolish vow that violated God's commandments.

Any God who would make a demand that such an oath be fulfilled isn't worthy of anyone's worship.

The problem with trying to reconcile a savage bronze age God with a modern people. You have to do some real mental gymnatistics, and of course, if you are too lazy to do that, just say the person who questions it "doesn't understand" when he opines that a god that demands the murder of children cannot be called "good" in any sense of the word.

She did not deserve to have an idiot for a father, why is that God's fault? Do you blame Him because you do stupid things? Or do you only blame Him for stupid things other people do?

I don't blame "Him" at all because I don't think "He" exists. You miss the point entirely of this discussion.

Believers have this image of God as this benevolent character who watches out for fools and small children, but the verses in the bible they don't preach in Church paint quite a different picture.

I went through twelve years of Catholic Schools and never heard of Jephthah. In fact, they skipped over the entire book of Judges except for talking about Samson and his hair in a way that "Disneyfied" the story to make Samson look like less of a terrorist. it was only through atheist websites I found this little gem.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This is typical of many Christians. They always claim when there is something in the Bible that does not go along with their set ideology it was because of a wrong interpretation.
And then when it is something that matches with their ideology 100% they claim there is only ONE interpretation of the Bible.
The Bible is the greatest book on earth but it was written and inspired BY MEN.
Always open to interpretation and the politics of the days when it was translated.

No, it is typical of idiots.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Joe, I think you're a shithead. God didn't ask him to kill his daughter. God didn't reward him for killing his daughter.

In fact, I'd say this reflects a lack of faith on Jephthah's part. The context shows that God was already going to give the victory to the Israelites, before Jephthah's promise. Yet, Jephthah still tried to buy God's blessing (which isn't for sale in the first place) by offering a member of his household as a sacrifice.

God wasn't going to change his plans for Israel based on the idiocy of a bastard.

Ariux is right on the money. Jephthah offering a sacrifice goes back to his origins in Syria.
God never asked for such an action. Nothing implies that God gave him spiritual knowledge or wisdom or that God condoned such sacrifices. What God did give Jephthah was a special measure of valor to defeat the Ammonites.
For a list of offerings condoned by God, read Leviticus. Had you read that first, you would have had your answer.

If you voted for Obama, does that mean you also approved of him having a list of people he wants to kill?

Actually, I voted for McCain. Might have voted for the Republican this time if the GOP hadn't been hijacked by the Latter Day Saints Cult.

To the point, where do you get the whole "Jephthah was from Syria" bit?

Read the actual verse...

11:29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.
11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
11:31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.


In short, the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephy before he ever thought of sacrificing something.

Now I cut Jephy some slack. Maybe he thought the first thing he was going to encounter was a sheep or a cow, which God considered "pleasing" sacrifices. But God knows all and sees all. He knew he was going to get him some Virgin.

The Spirit of the Lord also came upon Balaam, and his ass, neither of which were judges of Israel. After the Spirit of the Lord came upon Balaam he went out to prophecy against Israel. You should go look and see how that turned out.

 

[JoeB131]

Thanks for proving you haven't actually read the Bible, you just picked a story you thought proved you are smarter than other people. If you go read Judges 10 you will see that the judge that proceeded Jephthah was Jair, and that Israel did evil in the sight of YHWH after he died. When their enemies overran them they petitioned God for another judge to lead them, and he said no. Israel then put away their idols, but still insisted on doing it their way, and picked out someone they thought would be able to win.

Like I said earlier, it is a bit complicated if I am talking to someone who thinks he knows everything and actually knows nothing. The fact is that you have all the facts wrong.

Go back to my citation of Verse 11:29 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah"

Which indicates collusion. God also gave Jephy a victory over the Ammonites AND didn't say boo when he butchered his daughter.

FURTHERMORE- while Jewish scholars have argued what Jephthah did was wrong and was in the theme of a lawless time before Kings, the New Testement praises Jephthah as one of the heroes of the Bible.

Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's not a complicated things at all.

Jephthah's daughter did not deserve to be butchered, dismembered and burned because her father made a rash and foolish vow that violated God's commandments.

Any God who would make a demand that such an oath be fulfilled isn't worthy of anyone's worship.

The problem with trying to reconcile a savage bronze age God with a modern people. You have to do some real mental gymnatistics, and of course, if you are too lazy to do that, just say the person who questions it "doesn't understand" when he opines that a god that demands the murder of children cannot be called "good" in any sense of the word.

She did not deserve to have an idiot for a father, why is that God's fault? Do you blame Him because you do stupid things? Or do you only blame Him for stupid things other people do?

I don't blame "Him" at all because I don't think "He" exists. You miss the point entirely of this discussion.

Believers have this image of God as this benevolent character who watches out for fools and small children, but the verses in the bible they don't preach in Church paint quite a different picture.

I went through twelve years of Catholic Schools and never heard of Jephthah. In fact, they skipped over the entire book of Judges except for talking about Samson and his hair in a way that "Disneyfied" the story to make Samson look like less of a terrorist. it was only through atheist websites I found this little gem.

The point of the discussion is you don't know enough about the Bible to have a point. Anything beyond that is just reinforcing the point that you are a fool. I have heard the story of Jephthah in 4 different churches, none of which were Catholic. Maybe the problem here is you think other people are responsible for what you know, you should try reading things for yourself.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Thanks for proving you haven't actually read the Bible, you just picked a story you thought proved you are smarter than other people. If you go read Judges 10 you will see that the judge that proceeded Jephthah was Jair, and that Israel did evil in the sight of YHWH after he died. When their enemies overran them they petitioned God for another judge to lead them, and he said no. Israel then put away their idols, but still insisted on doing it their way, and picked out someone they thought would be able to win.

Like I said earlier, it is a bit complicated if I am talking to someone who thinks he knows everything and actually knows nothing. The fact is that you have all the facts wrong.

Go back to my citation of Verse 11:29 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah"

Which indicates collusion. God also gave Jephy a victory over the Ammonites AND didn't say boo when he butchered his daughter.

FURTHERMORE- while Jewish scholars have argued what Jephthah did was wrong and was in the theme of a lawless time before Kings, the New Testement praises Jephthah as one of the heroes of the Bible.

Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

Go back and read how God chose the judges of Israel, never once did it happen by the people of Israel picking the local thug to lead them into battle.

 

[JoeB131]

The point of the discussion is you don't know enough about the Bible to have a point. Anything beyond that is just reinforcing the point that you are a fool. I have heard the story of Jephthah in 4 different churches, none of which were Catholic. Maybe the problem here is you think other people are responsible for what you know, you should try reading things for yourself.

Really? How did these "four different chruches" explore the issue. That should be amusing.

I have read this story for myself... in several different translations. No one comes off good except maybe poor Jepthtah's daughter, who endures a horrible death because her father worships a sociopath.

 

[hortysir]

The point of the discussion is you don't know enough about the Bible to have a point. Anything beyond that is just reinforcing the point that you are a fool. I have heard the story of Jephthah in 4 different churches, none of which were Catholic. Maybe the problem here is you think other people are responsible for what you know, you should try reading things for yourself.

Really? How did these "four different chruches" explore the issue. That should be amusing.

I have read this story for myself... in several different translations. No one comes off good except maybe poor Jepthtah's daughter, who endures a horrible death because her father worships a sociopath.

The Good news is Jesus served as the Final Sacrifice

 

[The Irish Ram]

Joe, "To the point, where do you get the whole "Jephthah was from Syria" bit?"
Judges 11: 1-3
If you have read the Bible it clearly states what is an acceptable sacrifice. I can't find innocent girl anywhere on God's list.

 

[Gadawg73]

This is typical of many Christians. They always claim when there is something in the Bible that does not go along with their set ideology it was because of a wrong interpretation.
And then when it is something that matches with their ideology 100% they claim there is only ONE interpretation of the Bible.
The Bible is the greatest book on earth but it was written and inspired BY MEN.
Always open to interpretation and the politics of the days when it was translated.

No, it is typical of idiots.

I agree. Most religions, Christians included, have their share of idiots.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The point of the discussion is you don't know enough about the Bible to have a point. Anything beyond that is just reinforcing the point that you are a fool. I have heard the story of Jephthah in 4 different churches, none of which were Catholic. Maybe the problem here is you think other people are responsible for what you know, you should try reading things for yourself.

Really? How did these "four different chruches" explore the issue. That should be amusing.

I have read this story for myself... in several different translations. No one comes off good except maybe poor Jepthtah's daughter, who endures a horrible death because her father worships a sociopath.

They explored it as part of a comprehensive Bible study, how do you think they explored it?

Please point out where I said anyone came across as good. After you do that go back and show me where YHWH said Jephthah is the Judge of Israel.

 

[JoeB131]

The point of the discussion is you don't know enough about the Bible to have a point. Anything beyond that is just reinforcing the point that you are a fool. I have heard the story of Jephthah in 4 different churches, none of which were Catholic. Maybe the problem here is you think other people are responsible for what you know, you should try reading things for yourself.

Really? How did these "four different chruches" explore the issue. That should be amusing.

I have read this story for myself... in several different translations. No one comes off good except maybe poor Jepthtah's daughter, who endures a horrible death because her father worships a sociopath.

The Good news is Jesus served as the Final Sacrifice

Right. So God came down to earth by knocking up a virgin and being his own father, in order to lift a curse he had laid down because a rib woman committed the awful sin of listening to a talking snake and eating fruit from a magic tree...

The sad thing is you don't realize how laughable that sounds to rational people.

 

[JoeB131]

The point of the discussion is you don't know enough about the Bible to have a point. Anything beyond that is just reinforcing the point that you are a fool. I have heard the story of Jephthah in 4 different churches, none of which were Catholic. Maybe the problem here is you think other people are responsible for what you know, you should try reading things for yourself.

Really? How did these "four different chruches" explore the issue. That should be amusing.

I have read this story for myself... in several different translations. No one comes off good except maybe poor Jepthtah's daughter, who endures a horrible death because her father worships a sociopath.

They explored it as part of a comprehensive Bible study, how do you think they explored it?

Please point out where I said anyone came across as good. After you do that go back and show me where YHWH said Jephthah is the Judge of Israel.

"Comprehensive Bible Study"... also known as "Indoctrination and Brainwashing".

"The Spirit of the Lord came over Jephthah"- This was BEFORE he had the whacky idea of offering up a sacrifice that might have involved his virgin daughter in the mix.

And the problem is, the Bible is full of Yahweh inflicting these petty and meaningless punishments on people. Lot's wife getting turned into salt, Uzzah getting zapped dead for keeping the Ark of the Covenant from falling off a wagon, God killing 70,000 because David conducted a Census that God ordered. (Or maybe Satan did. 2 Samuel and 2 Chronicles can't agree.)

 

[JoeB131]

Joe, "To the point, where do you get the whole "Jephthah was from Syria" bit?"
Judges 11: 1-3
If you have read the Bible it clearly states what is an acceptable sacrifice. I can't find innocent girl anywhere on God's list.

Okay, here we go...

11:1 Now Jephthah the Gileadite was a mighty man of valour, and he was the son of an harlot: and Gilead begat Jephthah.
11:2 And Gilead's wife bare him sons; and his wife's sons grew up, and they thrust out Jephthah, and said unto him, Thou shalt not inherit in our father's house; for thou art the son of a strange woman.
11:3 Then Jephthah fled from his brethren, and dwelt in the land of Tob: and there were gathered vain men to Jephthah, and went out with him.

It says he was the son of Gilead, NOT that he was from Syria.

Now he dwelt in the land of Tob, but that was in Jordan, not Syria.

 

[hortysir]

Really? How did these "four different chruches" explore the issue. That should be amusing.

I have read this story for myself... in several different translations. No one comes off good except maybe poor Jepthtah's daughter, who endures a horrible death because her father worships a sociopath.

The Good news is Jesus served as the Final Sacrifice

Right. So God came down to earth by knocking up a virgin and being his own father, in order to lift a curse he had laid down because a rib woman committed the awful sin of listening to a talking snake and eating fruit from a magic tree...

The sad thing is you don't realize how laughable that sounds to rational people.

Cammpbelll? Is that you?

Never knew you were so insulting of others' faith, Joe.

Nowhere have I ridiculed you.

Lesson learned.