Prayer

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by onecut39, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. onecut39
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    onecut39 VIP Member

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    It’s great to be on a message board. Here we can take arguments that have been going on for thousands of years, where everything that can be said has been said and treat it as a brand new topic.

    Let’s take the the problem of a loving God in an evil world.

    In the old days this was not a problem, gods were more or less extensions of the human condition. There were thousands of them, god of this, god of that. They could be helpful but were just as likely, if not more so, to be indifferent or downright hostile.

    Folks made their offerings, burned their incense or sacrificed their virgins knowing full well that their god might not listen or would listen to this group but not that. Fishermen went to sea. Some got good catches, some not, and some just may have gotten drowned.

    This was simply taken that the gods favored some and not others. The fishermen mulled it over perhaps adjusting their offering or prayers in the hope that they would become the favored ones. Gods were expected to be, shall we say, less than nice, and never fair but you kept on plugging and maybe you would get lucky.

    With the advent of the loving, all-powerful, all knowing single god this became a problem. There was evil in the world. God was love and powerful enough to do anything. Something was amiss.

    There was some explaining to do.

    First there had to be a fall guy. Lucifer, Satan, or just the plain Devil filled this role. He would become the personification of evil. The fact that God created him and could simply destroy him also needed to be explained away. To my knowledge it never has been.


    All kinds of excuses came to hand. Man was created perfect they say but the devil made them eat of the tree of knowledge, leaving out how such a situation could exist in a perfectly created world. Man could not know good without knowing evil they say, leaving out why it is so necessary to know evil and pain. Man has a sinful nature they say and the devil is here to exploit that nature, again leaving out why such a nature was created in man.

    Anyway the devil gets the blame for all the bad things and god the credit for all the good. Sounds like the managerial setup in a modern corporation.

    I never have discovered why God could not do the dirty work himself, why he could not do the testing and sorting of of the sinners. He is, after all having no problem casting us into the burning fires of Hell. I see that it might just be a huge PR problem but I see no difference in the final result.

    The old saying has it that the rain falls on both the just and the unjust. Surely this would be a problem as there seems to be a matter of fairness here. Something had to be done.

    This was fairly simple. Just divorce God for the consequences of storms natural disasters, disease, droughts and so forth. We used to call these “acts of God” but god is no longer held responsible. That was a bit of a problem, kind of illogical, so the preferred phrase is now “natural disaster”.

    God is merciful, God is good and if that is so then God should be available to help those in need. Presto! We get prayer. Pray and you will receive. Ask and it will be given. Except it is not. The success ratio of answered prayer is dismal. It has become a truism that nothing fails like prayer.

    First this failure rate was ascribed to a lack of faith, true faith that is because God would surely respond to the truly faithful. Unfortunately it became glaringly obvious, as those of untarnished belief were no more successful than the obviously unfaithful. Then too there were the disasters to those who could be nothing but innocent, like small children. That will bring us to the final cop out.

    Man was given free will they say because it was necessary for us to appreciate the nature of good and evil. Each of us has the ability and responsibility to plot our own course, for good or bad and that is the end of that. God will not force us to be good, nor restrain us from being bad.

    The sad fact is that this is the final and complete nullification of prayer. If someone chooses to do me evil it is because he has free will to do so. If he chooses to run the red light and T bone me it was his free choice and prayer becomes innefective, banned actually. It is illogical to ask for deliverance from actions that the lord had deemed sancrosact.

    So where does that leave us? We can’t pray for relief from natural disasters. Had god wanted us to be saved he would not have made the disaster and he has been relieved of even that responsibility by modern doctrine. We are now stuck with the problems of disease, famine, drought, storms volcanic eruptions etc. Not God’s fault, Not God’s problem. It is yours.

    Since almost anything else bad that happens to us will be the result of our, or someone else’s free will, we can not now be saved from anything be it a traffic accident to being murdered. That’s the way the game has been set up.

    So what can you pray for?

    For the life of me I can see only one thing. You may pray for the strength to endure all the disasters that God either sets upon you or fails to prevent. It is almost a given that you will endure to some extent. If you endure well God will be given the credit, if you do not you will be judged a weakling, or worse, unworthy.

    Makes you wonder if it is worth all the effort.
     
  2. The Irish Ram
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    The Irish Ram LITTLE GIRL / Ram Tough

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    We didn't manufacture one God. He manufactured us. We can't even figure out how to use 80% of the brain He gave us, so it takes us awhile to catch up to what He is capable of.
    We don't need free will to understand the nature of evil, we need it to choose for ourselves wether or not we want to follow evil.
    Instead of Creator, think Father. No. Think Daddy, because adores you. He has a perfect plan for you, a perfect mate, perfect occupation...... we just never ask. Instead we wait till we are in a jam, then evoke His name, and give Him our wish list to carry out without out even realizing that unless we are repentant of our inhumane actions, He can't hear a word we say. Not one word. Then we blame him when we don't get our three wishes.
    Prayer has a lot of functions. For one, it keeps evil away. Good and evil cannot preside in the same body at the same time. Darkness has no choice but to flee in the presence of light.
    And understand that what may seem unfair or bad to us is not necessarily bad or unfair. He may let you hit rock bottom, so you'll finally call on Him once you have failed on your own.
    Unfair to you may be riding down the road singing hymns, and getting t-boned and dying before they can get you out of the car. The truth is that your last breath here on earth is your first breath in a Paradise we can't even begin to picture! Death may seem unfair to you, but it has no impact on God whatsoever. All he cares about is the condition of your soul at the time of your death, and that is where our fee will determines the outcome. If you chose to follow Him, then your coronation awaits. You are a child of the creator of the universe. You are royality now and from that point on.
    Consider life on earth as a mere training camp to determine where and how you will spend the rest of your ceaseless life, then choose which father you want to spend it with.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  3. The Irish Ram
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    The Irish Ram LITTLE GIRL / Ram Tough

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    Pray for everything! strength, wisdom, compassion, help in running the good race, for others...
    If you break down the Lord's Prayer it is meant to be a process, not to parrot.
    P-praise His name to let him know that YOU know who you are calling upon.
    R- repent.< it means return to the highest level (penthouse) Without this step, He can't hear one word you say.
    A- ask anything for anybody.<intercession (Christ's position right now in Heaven. He is still saying, "forgive them they know not what they do".)
    Y-ask God's will for yourself and whatever else you need to talk to Him about.
    And then take a moment to listen to what He has to say.
    I hope that helps answer your prayer question.
     
  4. onecut39
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    onecut39 VIP Member

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    That's a nice little PR piece. Would make a good 30 second ad but you answer nothing.

    I would like to see you address the abysmal success rate for prayer. And remember no "natural disasters" or any "free will" prayers will be considered.
     
  5. Marie888
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    Marie888 † † †

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    Jesus Christ said we can pray for this:

    Do you have everything you need? You got food? You got forgiveness? Are you lead into temptation or are you under some sort of evil? The daily bread can also be a metaphor for God's Word. We have God's Word all around us; He has provided it for us for sure if we are using the internet; it's all online now.
     
  6. Sallow
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    Sallow The Big Bad Wolf. Supporting Member

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    Religion is evil.

    Simple as that.

    Always has been..always will be.
     
  7. onecut39
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    onecut39 VIP Member

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    You can pray for anything you want. Having those prayers answered is a totally different thing.
     
  8. hwyangel
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    hwyangel Member

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    James 2
    14 What good is it, my brothers, if
    someone says he has faith but does
    not have works? Can that faith save
    him? 15 If a brother or sister is
    poorly clothed and lacking in daily
    food, 16 and one of you says to
    them, “Go in peace, be warmed and
    filled,” without giving them the
    things needed for the body, what
    good is that? 17 So also faith by
    itself, if it does not have works, is
    dead. 8 But someone will say, “You have
    faith and I have works.” Show me
    your faith apart from your works,
    and I will show you my faith by my
    works.
     
  9. there4eyeM
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    there4eyeM unlicensed metaphysician

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    Prayer is for the pray - er, not for the Prayee.
    If God is God, God already knows all, so what are you telling God?
    If God is God, all is from God and all is God, so what can you give God?
    If God is other than this, God is not God.
    If God does not exist, there is no problem of praying or not.

    Most people's concept of God is no more sophisticated than a concept of Santa Claus. You can think of God as 'Dad', and it is no insult to God. If God is all, God is great, small, wide, narrow, dad, mom....
    But thinking of God as 'Dad' does not make God 'Dad'. It does reflect a very limited concept. Any definition of God, if God exists, is an attempt to reduce God to human understanding.

    Religions are essentially blasphemy because they teach limited concepts of deity. Worse, they preach separation from God, which by definition cannot be. They distribute neat but trite sayings that comfort our weakest inclinations and maintain us in ignorance and submission.

    And, again, if God does not exist, all this religious b.s. is only....b.s.
     
  10. onecut39
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    onecut39 VIP Member

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