Judges Chapter 11- Did God Demand A Virgin Sacrifice?

[The Irish Ram]

Joe, do you believe God exists and is just really stupid, or He doesn't exist at all?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Really? How did these "four different chruches" explore the issue. That should be amusing.

I have read this story for myself... in several different translations. No one comes off good except maybe poor Jepthtah's daughter, who endures a horrible death because her father worships a sociopath.

They explored it as part of a comprehensive Bible study, how do you think they explored it?

Please point out where I said anyone came across as good. After you do that go back and show me where YHWH said Jephthah is the Judge of Israel.

"Comprehensive Bible Study"... also known as "Indoctrination and Brainwashing".

"The Spirit of the Lord came over Jephthah"- This was BEFORE he had the whacky idea of offering up a sacrifice that might have involved his virgin daughter in the mix.

And the problem is, the Bible is full of Yahweh inflicting these petty and meaningless punishments on people. Lot's wife getting turned into salt, Uzzah getting zapped dead for keeping the Ark of the Covenant from falling off a wagon, God killing 70,000 because David conducted a Census that God ordered. (Or maybe Satan did. 2 Samuel and 2 Chronicles can't agree.)

What makes you think they are in disagreement about who tempted David?

 

[JoeB131]

Joe, do you believe God exists and is just really stupid, or He doesn't exist at all?

I'm apathetic to the whole "God" question.

I can't believe that if there is a God, he is the horrible creature portrayed in the bible. I refuse to beleive the universe is that badly designed.

 

[JoeB131]

They explored it as part of a comprehensive Bible study, how do you think they explored it?

Please point out where I said anyone came across as good. After you do that go back and show me where YHWH said Jephthah is the Judge of Israel.

"Comprehensive Bible Study"... also known as "Indoctrination and Brainwashing".

"The Spirit of the Lord came over Jephthah"- This was BEFORE he had the whacky idea of offering up a sacrifice that might have involved his virgin daughter in the mix.

And the problem is, the Bible is full of Yahweh inflicting these petty and meaningless punishments on people. Lot's wife getting turned into salt, Uzzah getting zapped dead for keeping the Ark of the Covenant from falling off a wagon, God killing 70,000 because David conducted a Census that God ordered. (Or maybe Satan did. 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles can't agree.)

What makes you think they are in disagreement about who tempted David?

The fact the verses differ.

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1) "Go, number Israel and Judah."

24:2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
-

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

Now a key thing here might be the evolution of Satan within the bible itself, and how he goes from being a agent of Yahweh to an adversary to the lovable guy we know today...

But it is a contradiction, to be sure.

 

[Ariux]

Go back and read how God chose the judges of Israel, never once did it happen by the people of Israel picking the local thug to lead them into battle.

Does it take a lot of work to be so stupid, or does it come naturally for you?

The story of Jephthah is exactly that of the people of Israel picking a local thug to lead them into battle. Albeit a thug with a lot of faith in God.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

"Comprehensive Bible Study"... also known as "Indoctrination and Brainwashing".

"The Spirit of the Lord came over Jephthah"- This was BEFORE he had the whacky idea of offering up a sacrifice that might have involved his virgin daughter in the mix.

And the problem is, the Bible is full of Yahweh inflicting these petty and meaningless punishments on people. Lot's wife getting turned into salt, Uzzah getting zapped dead for keeping the Ark of the Covenant from falling off a wagon, God killing 70,000 because David conducted a Census that God ordered. (Or maybe Satan did. 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles can't agree.)

What makes you think they are in disagreement about who tempted David?

The fact the verses differ.

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1) "Go, number Israel and Judah."

24:2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
-

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

Now a key thing here might be the evolution of Satan within the bible itself, and how he goes from being a agent of Yahweh to an adversary to the lovable guy we know today...



But it is a contradiction, to be sure.

It certainly appears to be, but neither version says anything about anyone other than David ordering a census. Considering that God had specifically forbidden one, I think you are going to have a hard time proving he ordered it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Go back and read how God chose the judges of Israel, never once did it happen by the people of Israel picking the local thug to lead them into battle.

Does it take a lot of work to be so stupid, or does it come naturally for you?

The story of Jephthah is exactly that of the people of Israel picking a local thug to lead them into battle. Albeit a thug with a lot of faith in God.

Isn't that what I said?

 

[Moonglow]

Israel kept picking the wrong leaders and they sinned in the eyes of the lord. Eventually Israel was divided into two nations, and they were eventually conquered. Israel ceased to exist because they did not keep Gods laws, instead they acted like the peoples that bordered Israel.
Israel killed Gods prophets and showed little loyalty to thier God.

 

[JoeB131]

What makes you think they are in disagreement about who tempted David?

The fact the verses differ.

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1) "Go, number Israel and Judah."

24:2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
-

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

Now a key thing here might be the evolution of Satan within the bible itself, and how he goes from being a agent of Yahweh to an adversary to the lovable guy we know today...

But it is a contradiction, to be sure.

It certainly appears to be, but neither version says anything about anyone other than David ordering a census. Considering that God had specifically forbidden one, I think you are going to have a hard time proving he ordered it.

I'm not the one "proving" anything here, guy. I don't think God nor Satan actually exist except in the minds of funditarded morons who need a 3000 year old book to tell them what is right and wrong

I just point out that the 3000 year old book contradicts itself. And God was so mad about the census that he killed 70,000 Isrealites, just to teach David a lesson.

 

[Gadawg73]

The fact the verses differ.

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1) "Go, number Israel and Judah."

24:2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
-

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

Now a key thing here might be the evolution of Satan within the bible itself, and how he goes from being a agent of Yahweh to an adversary to the lovable guy we know today...

But it is a contradiction, to be sure.

It certainly appears to be, but neither version says anything about anyone other than David ordering a census. Considering that God had specifically forbidden one, I think you are going to have a hard time proving he ordered it.

I'm not the one "proving" anything here, guy. I don't think God nor Satan actually exist except in the minds of funditarded morons who need a 3000 year old book to tell them what is right and wrong

I just point out that the 3000 year old book contradicts itself. And God was so mad about the census that he killed 70,000 Isrealites, just to teach David a lesson.

Man in their many translations of The Bible contradicts himself. Love thy neighbor is just one of the many of the things that I learn dealing with what is right and wrong from the Bible.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The fact the verses differ.

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1) "Go, number Israel and Judah."

24:2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
-

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

Now a key thing here might be the evolution of Satan within the bible itself, and how he goes from being a agent of Yahweh to an adversary to the lovable guy we know today...

But it is a contradiction, to be sure.

It certainly appears to be, but neither version says anything about anyone other than David ordering a census. Considering that God had specifically forbidden one, I think you are going to have a hard time proving he ordered it.

I'm not the one "proving" anything here, guy. I don't think God nor Satan actually exist except in the minds of funditarded morons who need a 3000 year old book to tell them what is right and wrong

I just point out that the 3000 year old book contradicts itself. And God was so mad about the census that he killed 70,000 Isrealites, just to teach David a lesson.

You are the one that made the statement that one verse says God ordered it, and another says Satan did. Neither of them says anything like that. If you aren't trying to prove anything why say things like that?

 

[JoeB131]

It certainly appears to be, but neither version says anything about anyone other than David ordering a census. Considering that God had specifically forbidden one, I think you are going to have a hard time proving he ordered it.

I'm not the one "proving" anything here, guy. I don't think God nor Satan actually exist except in the minds of funditarded morons who need a 3000 year old book to tell them what is right and wrong

I just point out that the 3000 year old book contradicts itself. And God was so mad about the census that he killed 70,000 Isrealites, just to teach David a lesson.

You are the one that made the statement that one verse says God ordered it, and another says Satan did. Neither of them says anything like that. If you aren't trying to prove anything why say things like that?

Go back and read the verse. One says God told him to do it, the other said Satan did.

But let's leave that issue to the side for the second. Let's look at God's reaction to this Census he did or didn't order.

He gives David a choice. Three years of famine, three months of war, three days of pestilence. David picks what's behind Door #3. God kills 70,000 people.

Hey, now would be a good time to point out that Yahweh is a benevolent God who loves his chosen people.

 

[AmericanFirst]

If you are not familiar with the story, and honestly, I never heard it in 12 years of Catholic Education, here it is...

SAB, Judges 11

Long story short, Jephthah the Gileadite asks Yahweh for help with his battle with the Ammonites. To sweeten the pot, he vows to God that he will offer up as a burnt offering the first thing that he encounters when returning home. God must have been down with this, because the Ammonites are completely crushed.

Well, surprise, the first thing that greets him at his door is his daughter. He lets her know that he has vowed to sacrifice here (seriously, was he expecting to meet a cow or a dog or something?) and he must keep his word. His daughter goes off to bewail the fact she will die a virgin.

Now, here's the interesting point for all you believers out there. God did not do what he did in teh whole Isaac story and stop it at the last minute. He seems to passively allow this offer and passively allow the sacrifice. (A few apologists claim she lived as a virgin for the rest of her life, and that was her "sacrifice". Any reading of the bible would debunk that.) He could have told Jephthah no, or arranged for a dumb animal to greet him or just intervene..

But he didn't.

Thoughts?

God has never required a virgin sacrifice. The point of the story is not to promise God something he would never require of you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm not the one "proving" anything here, guy. I don't think God nor Satan actually exist except in the minds of funditarded morons who need a 3000 year old book to tell them what is right and wrong

I just point out that the 3000 year old book contradicts itself. And God was so mad about the census that he killed 70,000 Isrealites, just to teach David a lesson.

You are the one that made the statement that one verse says God ordered it, and another says Satan did. Neither of them says anything like that. If you aren't trying to prove anything why say things like that?

Go back and read the verse. One says God told him to do it, the other said Satan did.

But let's leave that issue to the side for the second. Let's look at God's reaction to this Census he did or didn't order.

He gives David a choice. Three years of famine, three months of war, three days of pestilence. David picks what's behind Door #3. God kills 70,000 people.

Hey, now would be a good time to point out that Yahweh is a benevolent God who loves his chosen people.

No, one of them says God moved David to do it, and the other says Satan provoked him. Maybe the problem here is you don't actually speak English.

 

[JoeB131]

You are the one that made the statement that one verse says God ordered it, and another says Satan did. Neither of them says anything like that. If you aren't trying to prove anything why say things like that?

Go back and read the verse. One says God told him to do it, the other said Satan did.

But let's leave that issue to the side for the second. Let's look at God's reaction to this Census he did or didn't order.

He gives David a choice. Three years of famine, three months of war, three days of pestilence. David picks what's behind Door #3. God kills 70,000 people.

Hey, now would be a good time to point out that Yahweh is a benevolent God who loves his chosen people.

No, one of them says God moved David to do it, and the other says Satan provoked him. Maybe the problem here is you don't actually speak English.

I do speak English and I've read commentaries from people who've read it in the original Hebrew.

Sorry, God and Satan told David to take a census, and then God murdered 70K Israelites, because that was the kind of whacky Sky Pixie he was.

 

[JoeB131]

If you are not familiar with the story, and honestly, I never heard it in 12 years of Catholic Education, here it is...

SAB, Judges 11

Long story short, Jephthah the Gileadite asks Yahweh for help with his battle with the Ammonites. To sweeten the pot, he vows to God that he will offer up as a burnt offering the first thing that he encounters when returning home. God must have been down with this, because the Ammonites are completely crushed.

Well, surprise, the first thing that greets him at his door is his daughter. He lets her know that he has vowed to sacrifice here (seriously, was he expecting to meet a cow or a dog or something?) and he must keep his word. His daughter goes off to bewail the fact she will die a virgin.

Now, here's the interesting point for all you believers out there. God did not do what he did in teh whole Isaac story and stop it at the last minute. He seems to passively allow this offer and passively allow the sacrifice. (A few apologists claim she lived as a virgin for the rest of her life, and that was her "sacrifice". Any reading of the bible would debunk that.) He could have told Jephthah no, or arranged for a dumb animal to greet him or just intervene..

But he didn't.

Thoughts?

God has never required a virgin sacrifice. The point of the story is not to promise God something he would never require of you.

By letting you do it anyway?

Frankly, not seeing how the lesson is learned here. If the first thing Jeffy ran into was an Oxen or a Sheep or some other poor animal that would make a pleasing smell to the Lord, it wouldn't have been an issue.

Jephy had no idea what he would encounter, but God would have (if he weren't the figment of Bronze Age imaginations, that is.)

 

[uscitizen]

Is this where the chapter 11 bankruptcy came from?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Go back and read the verse. One says God told him to do it, the other said Satan did.

But let's leave that issue to the side for the second. Let's look at God's reaction to this Census he did or didn't order.

He gives David a choice. Three years of famine, three months of war, three days of pestilence. David picks what's behind Door #3. God kills 70,000 people.

Hey, now would be a good time to point out that Yahweh is a benevolent God who loves his chosen people.

No, one of them says God moved David to do it, and the other says Satan provoked him. Maybe the problem here is you don't actually speak English.

I do speak English and I've read commentaries from people who've read it in the original Hebrew.

Sorry, God and Satan told David to take a census, and then God murdered 70K Israelites, because that was the kind of whacky Sky Pixie he was.

The word in both verses is cuwth, which means incite, lure, instigate, or entice. It does not mean ordered.

 

[JoeB131]

No, one of them says God moved David to do it, and the other says Satan provoked him. Maybe the problem here is you don't actually speak English.

I do speak English and I've read commentaries from people who've read it in the original Hebrew.

Sorry, God and Satan told David to take a census, and then God murdered 70K Israelites, because that was the kind of whacky Sky Pixie he was.

The word in both verses is cuwth, which means incite, lure, instigate, or entice. It does not mean ordered.

Incite or instigate means that they wanted David to do this, so God would come back later and punish him for it. Logically, I suppose the Chronicles version makes a bit more sense, Satan being a cosmic Eddie Haskel always getting David and the Beav in trouble.

Really, though, totally inexcusable to kill 70,000 people over something as petty as a census.

Now, a rational person would realize these were Bronze Age savages, and "God" was the go to explanation for everything they didn't understand. THunder? Must be God. Plague? Must be God. Hoard of Locust? Must be God. Enemies who don't believe in God defeat you and burn down your temple? You must not be believing in God sincerely enough.

It that some of you want to use this as a basis of morality in the 21st century that's kind of scary. 9/11? God must be unhappy about the Gheys (Robertson) or racial inequality (Wright).

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I do speak English and I've read commentaries from people who've read it in the original Hebrew.

Sorry, God and Satan told David to take a census, and then God murdered 70K Israelites, because that was the kind of whacky Sky Pixie he was.

The word in both verses is cuwth, which means incite, lure, instigate, or entice. It does not mean ordered.

Incite or instigate means that they wanted David to do this, so God would come back later and punish him for it. Logically, I suppose the Chronicles version makes a bit more sense, Satan being a cosmic Eddie Haskel always getting David and the Beav in trouble.

Really, though, totally inexcusable to kill 70,000 people over something as petty as a census.

Now, a rational person would realize these were Bronze Age savages, and "God" was the go to explanation for everything they didn't understand. THunder? Must be God. Plague? Must be God. Hoard of Locust? Must be God. Enemies who don't believe in God defeat you and burn down your temple? You must not be believing in God sincerely enough.

It that some of you want to use this as a basis of morality in the 21st century that's kind of scary. 9/11? God must be unhappy about the Gheys (Robertson) or racial inequality (Wright).

Actually, it doesn't. You can be held legally responsible for inciting a riot even if you can prove you did not want to start one.