Jimmy Carter's Op-Ed On Gaza War

[DiveCon]

Any opposition to Israel on this board means that you're some kind of deviant and will bring you showers of insults .. which is all they have.

bullshit BAC
there is a huge difference between criticism and outright support for Hamas

 

[BlackAsCoal]

bullshit BAC
there is a huge difference between criticism and outright support for Hamas

That's bullshit and your own comments prove how ridiculous that claim is.

ANYONE who criticizes Isreal .. even if they are Jewish .. is labelled as some kind of deviant. Seems to me there are quite a few Jews right here who hate other Jews more than those they accuse of hating Jews.

Most have a one dimensional brain and everything has to be black or white. The issues in the ME are more complex than "you're either with us or against us."

 

[Avatar4321]

That's bullshit and your own comments prove how ridiculous that claim is.

ANYONE who criticizes Isreal .. even if they are Jewish .. is labelled as some kind of deviant. Seems to me there are quite a few Jews right here who hate other Jews more than those they accuse of hating Jews.

Most have a one dimensional brain and everything has to be black or white. The issues in the ME are more complex than "you're either with us or against us."

Alot of issues are black and white. you either support genocide or you dont.

 

[Xenophon]

I find it very hard to take anyone seriously who claims that Jimmy carter is any but a massive laughing stock.

 

[DiveCon]

That's bullshit and your own comments prove how ridiculous that claim is.

ANYONE who criticizes Isreal .. even if they are Jewish .. is labelled as some kind of deviant. Seems to me there are quite a few Jews right here who hate other Jews more than those they accuse of hating Jews.

Most have a one dimensional brain and everything has to be black or white. The issues in the ME are more complex than "you're either with us or against us."

more bullshit from BAC

you can be critical of Israel, but not what you and the others are doing


so you can fuck off

 

[pfife]

Alot of issues are black and white. you either support genocide or you dont.

Who's committing genocide?

 

[Ravi]

Most have a one dimensional brain and everything has to be black or white.

This is true. And you suffer from it as well...it's quite obvious from your posts.

 

[garyd]

Bac no one is saying Israel is without sin. What we are saying is the Hamas started this little set to and the blood this time around is upon their head.

By the way leave it to Jimmy the Carter to completely miss the little game of Triangulation Hamas is trying to play here. They don't control the West Bank but if Hamas agrees to their terms on the cease fire - including the West Bank in the deal they will have seriously undermined the some what less virulent Abbas regime in the West Bank which does.

 

[Doug]

A tiny little thread diversion here, from someone who only posts on this board sporadically: what lucky people you are to have two posters in particular: Jillian, and Black as Coal. They're generally on opposite sides of the political barricades from me, but, just as Churchill paid Rommel, "across the havoc of war," the compliment of calling him "a great general," I want to acknowledge that these two people are especially thoughtful and effective at arguing their case. The incoming President could do worse than conscripting them into a commission to deal with the whole horrible Israeli-Palestinian mess.

Okay, enough with the nicey-nice, back to war.

The reality is, there is one piece of land which two people claim.

I couldn't care a fig about the "historical rights to the land arguments'" of either side, except to admire the ingenuity and dishonesty of some people in putting forth their claims.

Very few peoples are now living on land which their distant ancestors found as uninhabited soil. We are a nasty, savage species, and when one tribe sees another tribe in possession of something good, the initial reaction is to try to steal it from them, preferably with lots of rape and murder to accompany the deed. We are slowly evolving (socially, not biologically) beyond that, but that's pretty much been our history up until now.

Those non-Indian Americans who believe the Israelis should all pack up and leave and return Palestine to the Palestinians can set a good example by turning the keys of their house over to the nearest Indian, from whose ancestors America was taken by force.

And anyone who thinks that Israel's attempt to take the West Bank and Gaza, pursued for so long as the Palestinians didn't put up a violent resistance, is justified, carries genocide in their hearts: what was supposed to happen to the original inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza?

Israel had a lot of sympathy among non-Zionists for a long time, until she began the settlements policy. The Palestinians would have a lot more sympathy, if they didn't positively exult in using the most disgusting barbaric tactics in their resistance. (My iconic image of the Palestinian resistance is those grinning killers who, having butchered two Israeli reservists who took a wrong turn, dipped their arms into the blood of the murdered men and held their arms up for everyone to see and cheer at. Hellfire missile, where were you when we needed you?)

Rational people understand: the Palestinians will never, ever, ever get back their land and homes in what is now pre-1967 Israel. They, or some criminally insane but technically-able adherents of the "Religion of Peace" (Orwell, where art thou now?) may turn it into a radioactive wasteland some day ... but the Jews aren't going to go unaccompanied this time into that oven wished upon them by Muslim demonstrators. You can bet your bottom shekel that if Tel Aviv goes, so does Damascus and Cairo and Baghdad and Tehran.

And rational people understand: those settlements are doomed. Go home. Negotiate the best deal you can for extending Israel's "waist", work out something over Jerusalem. Apoligize for having to shove the natives out of the way in 1947 -- you were running from merciless killers and those who enabled or tolerated them. Get Uncle Sucker and the Euro-weenies to pour money into a new Palestinian state. Maybe it will work.

 

[nia588]

Jimmy Carter is anti-semitic .. so is the Red Cross .. so is the Pope and the Vatican .. so is the entire world.

Israel has never done anything wrong.

Moronic to the nth degree.

do you think that just because someone doesn't agree with what Israel does that they must be anti-Semitic? i don't agree with what Israel government has done in Gaza but it doesn't mean I hate Jews.

You know so tired of people accusing Jimmy Carter of being anti-Semitic just because he doesn't agree with the things the Israeli government does. There are Jews who even disagree with Israel.

 

[Doug]

He's being ironic.

 

[jillian]

do you think that just because someone doesn't agree with what Israel does that they must be anti-Semitic? i don't agree with what Israel government has done in Gaza but it doesn't mean I hate Jews.

You know so tired of people accusing Jimmy Carter of being anti-Semitic just because he doesn't agree with the things the Israeli government does. There are Jews who even disagree with Israel.

that isn't why people think jimmy carter is anti-semitic.

and I, personally, am "so tired" of people who support policies that reward terrorists but think it's not ok for Israel to respond to 3,000 missiles... If they were aimed at your kid, you'd want them stopped.

Now try for reality:

http://sderot.aish.com/SderotPetitions/15Seconds.php

 

[Doug]

Jillian: Not meant to be a polemical ploy, but ... what do you think of Israel's settlements policy? Most liberals whom I know well enough to ask, including all the Jews, are very critical of Israel, and certainly of the settlements policy. (I know that my acquaintances are not a random sample.)

I have never heard a convincing argument for the settlements policy. It didn't seem rational to me, and I have not yet heard a rational explanation. (I'm not talking about a moral justification, just a hard-headed, militarily-realistic analysis of why planting hundreds of thousands of Jews amidst millions of Palestinians who want to kill them was a good idea.)

The only half-way convincing argument I have heard was that they were just a bargaining chip, to be traded for peace. But this doesn't really seem to be the case. So what's the story?

 

[jillian]

Jillian: Not meant to be a polemical ploy, but ... what do you think of Israel's settlements policy? Most liberals whom I know well enough to ask, including all the Jews, are very critical of Israel, and certainly of the settlements policy. (I know that my acquaintances are not a random sample.)

I have never heard a convincing argument for the settlements policy. It didn't seem rational to me, and I have not yet heard a rational explanation. (I'm not talking about a moral justification, just a hard-headed, militarily-realistic analysis of why planting hundreds of thousands of Jews amidst millions of Palestinians who want to kill them was a good idea.)

The only half-way convincing argument I have heard was that they were just a bargaining chip, to be traded for peace. But this doesn't really seem to be the case. So what's the story?

I think as part of a full resolution, the settlements will have to be disbanded. And that is exactly what they are --- a bargaining chip except for the most far right.

There are always going to be things I agree with that they do and things I don't. I always thought the stupidest thing Israel ever did was plow under the houses. They may have been justified, but it did major damage in terms of giving ammunition to haters. But when people think that Israel is supposed to live up to a standard that no other nation in the world is, their motivation is clear.

 

[Doug]

Yes. Most of our history is sanitized. The far Left produces history -- mostly true, so far as it goes -- which shows how awful the dominant powers have treated indigenous peoples in the Americas. But no one really writes history which shows how bloody the whole clash of nations has been, and how unfair to the weaker sides.

When I tell people that the whole history of Europe has been one of ethnic cleansing of Europeans against each other, they dismiss this as an exaggeration. But even in the supposedly-enlightened 20th Century, we saw many national groupings driven out of the lands where they had been for centuries. What happened to European Jews was qualitatively worse than what happened to other Europeans, of course; and this was in part because the Jews had no homeland to which they could flee. Which is the whole secular and rational justification of Israel.

I think what has lost Israel a lot of support, or sympathy, was that she continued to build settlements steadily, as if she intended to hold a significant part of the West Bank regardless. This never made any sense to me.

What Israel needs now is a Sharon, or a DeGaul, or a Nixon, a hard man who cannot be accused of being a wimpy liberal (sorry) who will grasp the nettle and make the necessary bold and radical and unpopular decision, and withdraw the settlements. I think this would be the wise move, even with no Arab concessions, although I am sure lots of concessions could be won with such an offer. Then, hopefully, the Palestinians could have their civil war between the intransigents, and the realists.

 

[midcan5]

Yes. Most of our history is sanitized.

Doug, how is it you can't think or write without the idiocy of pointing fingers at your imaginary reason for existence? Existence that can only criticize others without genuine thought.

BOT - Jimmy Carter is that rare human, a honest, moral man, that is why he is disliked so. Israel is an apartheid nation, no one seems to face that fact. And when people are so desperate they blow themselves up rather than live, something is amiss. Read the history and read the terrorism used against the Palestinians. Neither side in this conflict can assume the moral and just mantle - they are both wrong. If one can argue what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians is justified one can justify anything.

 

[Doug]

MidCan: You ask, how is it Ican't think or write without the idiocy of pointing fingers at my imaginary reason for existence? You know, try as hard as I can, I cannot make sense of that sentence. Thus I am unable to answer it. If someone can translate it for me, though, I'll have a go.

"Existence that can only criticize others without genuine thought." No, the ones with genuine thought, I enjoy engaging with. The ones without genuine thought, I just ignore, which is why you're seldom in my sights. I've lowered my standards here just this once, out of charity.

 

[Avatar4321]

Doug, how is it you can't think or write without the idiocy of pointing fingers at your imaginary reason for existence? Existence that can only criticize others without genuine thought.

BOT - Jimmy Carter is that rare human, a honest, moral man, that is why he is disliked so. Israel is an apartheid nation, no one seems to face that fact. And when people are so desperate they blow themselves up rather than live, something is amiss. Read the history and read the terrorism used against the Palestinians. Neither side in this conflict can assume the moral and just mantle - they are both wrong. If one can argue what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians is justified one can justify anything.

Ive already pointed out the reason i dont like Carter is because he a dishonest, disingenious, glory seeker. There is nothing moral about him.

And yes, when people would rather blow themselves up to kill innocent people, somethings wrong. But its not the victims of these people that are the ones with the problem.

its not really hard to justify self defense.

 

[pfife]

its not really hard to justify self defense.

It is when your "self defense" is killing people who didn't attack you.

 

[Avatar4321]

It is when your "self defense" is killing people who didn't attack you.

Yeah cause firing 3000 missles at you is just a nice way to say hello.