If Jesus couldn't keep HIMSELF out of trouble...

[Cecilie1200]

some of you guys are totally clueless and probably shouldnt even comment ....

Jesus knew his fate (death by torture and crucifixion) from his birth.... it was old testament prophecy... there were no surprises... He was GOD...

He repeated it over and over the the apostles (i will be raised by man) .. only John understood he meant death... the others thought he meant raised to a earthly throne...

if Jesus was God.....when he prayed.....who was he praying too?....

God the Father, the part of the Godhead that stayed in Heaven.

Why is this story so damned difficult for you people to remember? It's not like it's an obscure one that never gets talked about, or anything.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm not a christian, but according to the Bible it seems like he wanted to get in trouble (crucifixion) to absolve people of their sins.

According to the Bible, he had no interest in getting into THAT kind of trouble.

That's why he said "My Lord, my Lord, why have you abandoned me?" when he was on the cross.

I think maybe if you're on the verge of death and dying in such a harsh way, you might not be in your right mind either, Proving he was truly a man.

Sorry, but He was fully in His right mind, and chose His words very carefully, for a very specific reason.

I will say, though, that His words do reveal an extreme level of suffering and anguish. Having God the Father turn away from Him for the first time ever would be a wrenching experience, even knowing it had to happen.

 

[Cecilie1200]

some of you guys are totally clueless and probably shouldnt even comment ....

Jesus knew his fate (death by torture and crucifixion) from his birth.... it was old testament prophecy... there were no surprises... He was GOD...

He repeated it over and over the the apostles (i will be raised by man) .. only John understood he meant death... the others thought he meant raised to a earthly throne...

if Jesus was God.....when he prayed.....who was he praying too?....

Good question.

There are many destinct persons that make up the one God. He could not reveal himself in his full glory,i believe that is why he revealed himself in many forms. The bible say's seven spirits make up God.

With a close study we can see that he revealed himself as the Angel of the LORD,the son of God,and the Holy spirit. Some people don't believe he is God they believe he was the actual son of God. But this is for the individual reader to decide for himself. The key is believing and trusting in the son of God.

You are just babbling mindlessly at this point.

 

[Steelplate]

Judas is in Hell... he had a choice ...he chose evil... it wasnt Gods hand that drove Judas... It was Judas's misunderstanding and desire to see an earthly King conquer the world... He tried to force that hand for his own gain when he betrayed the Christ... It Broke Jesus heart that he could not save Judas..

god made him do it. It was part of the script and jesus knew it was.

God doesn't make anyone do anything, ass munch. Judas did what he did out of his own free will, the same way you're making a public idiot out of yourself out of your own free will. No one to blame but yourself.

While I agree that God doesn't make anyone do anything, and that Judas did what he did out of his own free will. I however, am not sure that it wasn't choreographed between Judas and Jesus.

The Gospel of Judas(found in 1970) describes a very different Judas than is portrayed in our bible. Once again... our bible was a "voted on" affair by men in the Council of Nicaea.

it wouldn't be the first time that they got something wrong. Mary Magdalene, up until very recently was portrayed as a prostitute, when in truth.. she was a trusted member of the group and may have been an apostle herself.

Here's a little something on the "Gospel of Judas"....

The Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot? : NPR

Yeah.. i know... it's NPR... but there are plenty of other links out there.

 

[Mr Natural]

I never quite got the "Jesus died for our sons" concept.

Guess that's why my religious indoctranation never went too far.

 

[Steelplate]

...how do you expect him to save you?

This seems like a fatal theological flaw if ever there was one.

Of course he couldn't keep out of trouble. He was into helping people, which of course makes him a "socialist". He was a "teacher" (insert Palin eye roll here). He was the opposite of everything uncompassionate conservatives stand for. Worst of all, he wanted "hope and change".

A socialist ? WTH are you talking about...? I have yet to find scripture where JC placed any faith in Rome or any government of any kind ... your confusing compassion with liberalism and they have nothing in common.. JC preached Free Will to do good or bad... its your choice.. he never said it was our responsibility to take care of people perfectly capable of taking care of themselves (Socialism)... He preached individual charity for the poor, widows and orphans... not governmental handouts for the lazy ...

No we're not. You are confusing Christ's message with your own political Ideology.

Luke 6:30...If someone takes your coat... offer him your shirt too(close enough without googling).

Matthew 25: 31-46....31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Those aren't "suggestions" they are demands of a Christian society.

Notice... in either of these passages does it say "people who can or cannot do for themselves", does it?

You guys need to stop cherry picking the bible and focusing only on "other people's sins" when there is plenty to go around for all of us.

 

[Youwerecreated]

According to the Bible, he had no interest in getting into THAT kind of trouble.

That's why he said "My Lord, my Lord, why have you abandoned me?" when he was on the cross.

I think maybe if you're on the verge of death and dying in such a harsh way, you might not be in your right mind either, Proving he was truly a man.

Sorry, but He was fully in His right mind, and chose His words very carefully, for a very specific reason.

I will say, though, that His words do reveal an extreme level of suffering and anguish. Having God the Father turn away from Him for the first time ever would be a wrenching experience, even knowing it had to happen.

Good point.

 

[Youwerecreated]

if Jesus was God.....when he prayed.....who was he praying too?....

Good question.

There are many destinct persons that make up the one God. He could not reveal himself in his full glory,i believe that is why he revealed himself in many forms. The bible say's seven spirits make up God.

With a close study we can see that he revealed himself as the Angel of the LORD,the son of God,and the Holy spirit. Some people don't believe he is God they believe he was the actual son of God. But this is for the individual reader to decide for himself. The key is believing and trusting in the son of God.

You are just babbling mindlessly at this point.

Really ,Well who in speaking from the burning bush ?

Exo 3:2 And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire, out of the midst of a thorn bush. And he looked. And behold! The thorn bush burned with fire! And the thorn bush was not burned up.
Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up.
Exo 3:4 And Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to see. God called to him out of the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Here I am.

Babbling no,i do sometimes stutter.

 

[Harry Dresden]

some of you guys are totally clueless and probably shouldnt even comment ....

Jesus knew his fate (death by torture and crucifixion) from his birth.... it was old testament prophecy... there were no surprises... He was GOD...

He repeated it over and over the the apostles (i will be raised by man) .. only John understood he meant death... the others thought he meant raised to a earthly throne...

if Jesus was God.....when he prayed.....who was he praying too?....

God the Father, the part of the Godhead that stayed in Heaven.

Why is this story so damned difficult for you people to remember? It's not like it's an obscure one that never gets talked about, or anything.

your saying God was praying to a part of himself?.....GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK.....there is supposed to be ONE God....as such that one god would not be praying to himself or a part of himself....Jesus was not "God"......he was another distinct Being sent here by that "God" to do what he was supposed to do....for someone who is telling people off because they have not read the Bible......you sure as hell sound just as stupid as anyone here.....including me....

 

[emilynghiem]

It's not that the story doesn't have a message, Emily. As you've shown, it does. It just doesn't hang together logically.

Can you explain which inconsistency in logic is really bothering you as unresolvable?

1. is it the conflict that if God's will is so perfect then why is this horrible thing required to happen to fix God's relationship with man that went astray

2. is it the conflict that if Jesus' will is one with God's will, as inseparable in spirit,
then why is he saying things that sound like he is struggling or "not wanting" it?
that indicate he is separated from or abandoned by God, he is not at peace with this.

which specific point do you find inconsistent?

I am wondering if it is similar to the dilemma that if God's will is absolute/all-knowing and supreme, in control of all things in the universe, then where is man's free will in that?

I believe reconciling these two levels of will is the driving force behind the human conscience, so we will not be fully satisfied until we are at peace with this issue:
the individual will and the collective will, how we connect or relate to greater society or humanity as a whole, this is a constant battle of finding balance and harmony.

How can we have BOTH things, what we want and what is best for the greater good of all?

Is your question related to this theme?
Thank you WP, I believe this is very deep, and your
question is more insightful and not as "dumb" as people might take it on the surface.

I believe this is the fundamental question that has driven humanity
since we became self-aware of our existence in relation to others in the world.

Everyone has a different way of asking it, the same basic question,
and that is why everyone comes to a different answer that brings them peace!

May I encourage you not to be content or complacent with just
"accepting there is something illogical here" but to pursue investigation
until you resolve what you see as the conflict.

I look forward to seeing what answer or understanding you come up with,
as I believe that will help many other people who are struggling with the same.

Thanks again for sharing your insightful perspective!

 

[Lonestar_logic]

...how do you expect him to save you?

This seems like a fatal theological flaw if ever there was one.

Something is flawed alright. And it's your brain!

Please refrain from speaking on things you know nothing about.

Can't argue the point, so you attack? Join the club; it's big around here.

You haven't made a point. However you did confirm that you haven't a clue.

 

[Marie888]

Can't argue the point, so you attack? Join the club; it's big around here.

Dumb ass Jesus CHOSE to allow himself to be executed in order to save mankind. If you do not even know the basic facts please refrain from embarrassing yourself with idiotic posts like this thread.

Then he wouldn't have wondered why God had abandoned him, dumbass.

Damn, the fundies don't even know their own bible.

Why did Jesus cry out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

"In Matthew 27:45-46, it says, "Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" If Jesus is God, why would He say this?

First of all, Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 which begins with, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?". Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. "
..

"Psalm 22 was written about 600 years before Christ was born. At that time, crucifixion had not yet been invented. Actually, the Phoenicians developed it and Rome borrowed the agonizing means of execution from them. So, when Rome ruled over Israel, it became the Roman means of capital punishment imposed upon the Jews whose biblical means of execution was stoning. Nevertheless, Jesus is pointing to the scriptures to substantiate His messianic mission."




Please see link for further reading....

.

 

[emilynghiem]

some of you guys are totally clueless and probably shouldnt even comment ....

Jesus knew his fate (death by torture and crucifixion) from his birth.... it was old testament prophecy... there were no surprises... He was GOD...

He repeated it over and over the the apostles (i will be raised by man) .. only John understood he meant death... the others thought he meant raised to a earthly throne...

if Jesus was God.....when he prayed.....who was he praying too?....

Dear Harry:

(A) This is the passage I used to resolve this between two JW and two Christians:

JOHN 10:29-30
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus acknowledges within the same context, that the Father is GREATER
and also that HE and the FATHER are ONE.

So it does NOT mean they are exactly one and the same IDENTICAL.

They are one in spirit, God's will perfectly incarnated in Jesus without separation.
Clearly Jesus is physically limited in human form, but a perfect manifestation of God's will and spirit of God's laws, that is why Jesus is taught as the fulfillment of God's WORD.

(B) if it is easier to make a secular analogy
the US Government is ONE, there are not "three separate governments"
when we say that governmental authority is manifested as judicial, legislative, executive

even though the people ARE the government
we still have to petition TO the government to redress grievances and
establish points of law

If you take "Jesus" or "Equal Justice for All" to be the governing spirit or body of laws
that the people embody to establish one government over all of us (the second level),
then we STILL may have to petition TO Judicial authority for interpretation (the first level).

Does this help explain the relationship?
How can the people be "one with Government,"
and yet petition TO this Government as distinct entities as well?

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know........according to the Gospel of Judas (recently found), Judas wasn't expecting Yeshua to get turned over to the Roman authorities. When the Jewish leaders turned Yeshua over to the Romans (who are the ones responsible for His crucifixion) it upset Judas enough to the point that he hung himself in front of Caiphas' family tomb to desecrate it forever.

No.........I don't think anyone was expecting things to turn out like they did.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

Unwillingness to exercise a power doesn't demonstrates inability to exercise it.

I have the power to take someone elses life (as most of us do). Does my unwillingness to exercise that power mean i dont have it?

It might hurt your chances if you were to apply to join a mercenary unit.

Duh, dimwit. Since she's unwilling to kill people, she's not very likely to be making that application, now is she? Irrelevant much?

Dear lord, do you EVER say anything that isn't asinine?

Oh goody, another shit wit who has no idea how to apply an analogy.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

Fail.

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."

John 19:30
"When He had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, He bowed His head and gave up His spirit”

Both those verses sound like they're describing a guy who's just depressed.

Maybe He was foreseeing your birth and wondering if it meant that mankind wasn't worth saving, after all. God knows, your existence makes ME wonder that sometimes.

Wow. Skipping your thorazine much??

I have to tell you, this series of tantrum-ettes is only a pathetic shadow of what I've seen you post in the past. You need to up your game, girlie, or I'll have to put you on ignore.

As it now stands, there's no need for you at all. AllieBlubber can post better drivel that what you've come up with in the last 24 hours.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

...how do you expect him to save you?

This seems like a fatal theological flaw if ever there was one.

The flaw in your question is A) that it implies everyone believes in Jesus the same way and B) That you know what is mean t by the phrase "saved" and that it has something to do with evading physical peril.

Now if this was nothing more than an attempt at antagonism, well gee, how clever of you. I suppose I could write something along the lines of
"If 86%+ of the world knows something and you deny it's even possible, do you feel like an idiot?"

But let's go with the assumption that you weren't actually just being an @ss and wanted to disucss this.

Questions? Comments?

If one's being saved has nothing to do with avoiding peril, as you imply, then how can salvation have any meaning?

 

[daveman]

...how do you expect him to save you?

This seems like a fatal theological flaw if ever there was one.

Atheists discussing faith is like ugly virgin prudes discussing sex:

No experience, no chance of getting any, and no interest in getting any.

 

[daveman]

Of course he couldn't keep out of trouble. He was into helping people, which of course makes him a "socialist". He was a "teacher" (insert Palin eye roll here). He was the opposite of everything uncompassionate conservatives stand for. Worst of all, he wanted "hope and change".

A socialist ? WTH are you talking about...? I have yet to find scripture where JC placed any faith in Rome or any government of any kind ... your confusing compassion with liberalism and they have nothing in common.. JC preached Free Will to do good or bad... its your choice.. he never said it was our responsibility to take care of people perfectly capable of taking care of themselves (Socialism)... He preached individual charity for the poor, widows and orphans... not governmental handouts for the lazy ...

No we're not. You are confusing Christ's message with your own political Ideology.

Luke 6:30...If someone takes your coat... offer him your shirt too(close enough without googling).

Matthew 25: 31-46....31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Those aren't "suggestions" they are demands of a Christian society.

Notice... in either of these passages does it say "people who can or cannot do for themselves", does it?

You guys need to stop cherry picking the bible and focusing only on "other people's sins" when there is plenty to go around for all of us.

"You are confusing Christ's message with your own political Ideology."

That's exactly what you're doing. Jesus commands us all to be charitable. He did not command us to request the government force us to be charitable.

It's part of the whole "free will" thing. A gift freely given is priceless. A gift given at gunpoint is worthless.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

...how do you expect him to save you?

This seems like a fatal theological flaw if ever there was one.

Atheists discussing faith is like ugly virgin prudes discussing sex:

No experience, no chance of getting any, and no interest in getting any.

What makes you think I'm an atheist?