lolwut?
Navigation
Install the app
How to install the app on iOS
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
More options
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Expectations of Minimum Wage
- Thread starter DustyInfinity
- Start date
lolwut?
- Aug 4, 2009
- 281,163
- 140,693
- 2,615
Because minimum wage is our starter wage. Not intended to support a family but to allow a worker to establish themselves in the workforce. Get an education, buy a car, get a place to livePrice of everything?I'm sure this thread has been done to death, but I have never followed any as of yet. I think it boils down to one simple question. Are minimum wage jobs meant to support and raise families, to be the primary income for families? Does it make sense for someone working at McDonald's for 30 hrs a week, if they can get those hours, to say hey, I think I'll have three kids? I know many Republicans make the erroneous statement that it is just high school kids getting their first jobs. Many, many adults work minimum wage jobs, and many adults are not able to move up to better jobs. This doesn't change anything however, because if you are an adult, I would hope you would not try to start a family on a minimum wage job. Why do Democrats think that adults who work minimum wage jobs should have kids they can't afford? I have a strong hunch that the attempt to make every single job in America a bread winning family supporting job is a folly. Does it make sense that every job should guarantee the ability to raise a family? I think it makes more sense for people to wait to have kids until if or when they can afford them. Is that a radical idea?
Let’s look at it this way
When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months. I could buy a new car after working six months. On an hours work, I could buy seven gallons of gas for that car.
It would take you $15 an hour to do the same today
When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months.
Throw trillions of government dollars into demand, without increasing supply, you'll cause the price to go up.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Price of everything?
Price of tuition. Price of healthcare.
Just to name the two biggest.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Why should it?
$7.25 does not do that
I'm sure this thread has been done to death, but I have never followed any as of yet. I think it boils down to one simple question. Are minimum wage jobs meant to support and raise families, to be the primary income for families? Does it make sense for someone working at McDonald's for 30 hrs a week, if they can get those hours, to say hey, I think I'll have three kids? I know many Republicans make the erroneous statement that it is just high school kids getting their first jobs. Many, many adults work minimum wage jobs, and many adults are not able to move up to better jobs. This doesn't change anything however, because if you are an adult, I would hope you would not try to start a family on a minimum wage job. Why do Democrats think that adults who work minimum wage jobs should have kids they can't afford? I have a strong hunch that the attempt to make every single job in America a bread winning family supporting job is a folly. Does it make sense that every job should guarantee the ability to raise a family? I think it makes more sense for people to wait to have kids until if or when they can afford them. Is that a radical idea?
I dunno. Its a deep topic. Minimum wage going up is going to cause inflation. Inflation will lessen the burden of plenty of bad mortgages.
Also consider those for illegals are effectively for people working under minimum wage. Those against illegals are demanding businesses pay at least minimum wage.
Most inflation is caused by investor returns. In the mid-70's investors received 10% of net profit, today it's 50%.
Most inflation is caused by investor returns.
Toro
What do you think?
lolwut?
He's always good for a laugh. More than supposn.
Because minimum wage is our starter wage. Not intended to support a family but to allow a worker to establish themselves in the workforce. Get an education, buy a car, get a place to livePrice of everything?I'm sure this thread has been done to death, but I have never followed any as of yet. I think it boils down to one simple question. Are minimum wage jobs meant to support and raise families, to be the primary income for families? Does it make sense for someone working at McDonald's for 30 hrs a week, if they can get those hours, to say hey, I think I'll have three kids? I know many Republicans make the erroneous statement that it is just high school kids getting their first jobs. Many, many adults work minimum wage jobs, and many adults are not able to move up to better jobs. This doesn't change anything however, because if you are an adult, I would hope you would not try to start a family on a minimum wage job. Why do Democrats think that adults who work minimum wage jobs should have kids they can't afford? I have a strong hunch that the attempt to make every single job in America a bread winning family supporting job is a folly. Does it make sense that every job should guarantee the ability to raise a family? I think it makes more sense for people to wait to have kids until if or when they can afford them. Is that a radical idea?
Let’s look at it this way
When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months. I could buy a new car after working six months. On an hours work, I could buy seven gallons of gas for that car.
It would take you $15 an hour to do the same today
When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months.
Throw trillions of government dollars into demand, without increasing supply, you'll cause the price to go up.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Price of everything?
Price of tuition. Price of healthcare.
Just to name the two biggest.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Why should it?
$7.25 does not do that
Why do you think it should be enough to do those things?
It's meant for the least skilled, least experienced.
People who should be taking the bus, living with parents, still in high school.
Currently, less than 2% make MW or less.
Refer to CPI Inflation Calculatoruntil it exceeds 25% of its February 1968 Cost-Price Index value.SlyHunter, I'm a proponent for annually increasing the federal minimum wage rate by 12.5% until it exceeds 25% of its February 1968 Cost-Price Index value. There after it should be monitored and annually adjusted when necessary as not to fall below that purchasing power.
It's unlikely that a "livable wage" could be achieved prior to first substantially increasing the purchasing power of the federal minimum wage rate and annually sustaining that increased rate. wage" rate.
Respectfully, Supposn
25%?
That would be less than $3 an hour.
the February-1968 federal minimum wage rate was $1.60 then.
Adjusting for the U.S. dollar's loss of purchasing power, that's the equivalent of $11.83 in February- 2019.
the equivalent value of 125% OF $1.60, (i.e. $2) in February -1968 was $14.78 in February- 2019.
ToddsterPatriot, you're striving to prove you weren't pretending to be ignorant?
Refer to CPI Inflation Calculatoruntil it exceeds 25% of its February 1968 Cost-Price Index value.SlyHunter, I'm a proponent for annually increasing the federal minimum wage rate by 12.5% until it exceeds 25% of its February 1968 Cost-Price Index value. There after it should be monitored and annually adjusted when necessary as not to fall below that purchasing power.
It's unlikely that a "livable wage" could be achieved prior to first substantially increasing the purchasing power of the federal minimum wage rate and annually sustaining that increased rate. wage" rate.
Respectfully, Supposn
25%?
That would be less than $3 an hour.
the February-1968 federal minimum wage rate was $1.60 then.
Adjusting for the U.S. dollar's loss of purchasing power, that's the equivalent of $11.83 in February- 2019.
the equivalent value of 125% OF $1.60, (i.e. $2) in February -1968 was $14.78 in February- 2019.
ToddsterPatriot, you're striving to prove you weren't pretending to be ignorant?
Adjusting for the U.S. dollar's loss of purchasing power, that's the equivalent of $11.83 in February- 2019
Yup. And 25% of 11.83 is LESS THAN $3
- Apr 10, 2013
- 23,667
- 1,880
- 265
I'm sure this thread has been done to death, but I have never followed any as of yet. I think it boils down to one simple question. Are minimum wage jobs meant to support and raise families, to be the primary income for families? Does it make sense for someone working at McDonald's for 30 hrs a week, if they can get those hours, to say hey, I think I'll have three kids? I know many Republicans make the erroneous statement that it is just high school kids getting their first jobs. Many, many adults work minimum wage jobs, and many adults are not able to move up to better jobs. This doesn't change anything however, because if you are an adult, I would hope you would not try to start a family on a minimum wage job. Why do Democrats think that adults who work minimum wage jobs should have kids they can't afford? I have a strong hunch that the attempt to make every single job in America a bread winning family supporting job is a folly. Does it make sense that every job should guarantee the ability to raise a family? I think it makes more sense for people to wait to have kids until if or when they can afford them. Is that a radical idea?
Let’s look at it this way
When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months. I could buy a new car after working six months. On an hours work, I could buy seven gallons of gas for that car.
It would take you $15 an hour to do the same today
you didn't have 50 million illegal Mexicans in this country in 1970, We were still exporting more then we were importing, it didn't change till the mid 1980'S
They came for the jobs. A pipeline of undocumented workers for Donald Trump ran from Costa Rica to N.J.: 'My whole town practically lived there'
- Aug 4, 2009
- 281,163
- 140,693
- 2,615
AbsolutelyBecause minimum wage is our starter wage. Not intended to support a family but to allow a worker to establish themselves in the workforce. Get an education, buy a car, get a place to livePrice of everything?Let’s look at it this way
When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months. I could buy a new car after working six months. On an hours work, I could buy seven gallons of gas for that car.
It would take you $15 an hour to do the same today
When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months.
Throw trillions of government dollars into demand, without increasing supply, you'll cause the price to go up.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Price of everything?
Price of tuition. Price of healthcare.
Just to name the two biggest.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Why should it?
$7.25 does not do that
Why do you think it should be enough to do those things?
It's meant for the least skilled, least experienced.
People who should be taking the bus, living with parents, still in high school.
Currently, less than 2% make MW or less.
Starting wage
Meant for young workers trying to move up the ladder
I could pay my college tuition making minimum wage over the summer in the 70s.
Today’s college students have to work all summer and then take out massive student loans to get through school
Why should students have to go into dept so that employers can get low cost labor?
AbsolutelyBecause minimum wage is our starter wage. Not intended to support a family but to allow a worker to establish themselves in the workforce. Get an education, buy a car, get a place to livePrice of everything?When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months.
Throw trillions of government dollars into demand, without increasing supply, you'll cause the price to go up.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Price of everything?
Price of tuition. Price of healthcare.
Just to name the two biggest.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Why should it?
$7.25 does not do that
Why do you think it should be enough to do those things?
It's meant for the least skilled, least experienced.
People who should be taking the bus, living with parents, still in high school.
Currently, less than 2% make MW or less.
Starting wage
Meant for young workers trying to move up the ladder
I could pay my college tuition making minimum wage over the summer in the 70s.
Today’s college students have to work all summer and then take out massive student loans to get through school
Why should students have to go into dept so that employers can get low cost labor?
Starting wage
Meant for young workers trying to move up the ladder
Yup. Decent workers quickly earn more.
I could pay my college tuition making minimum wage over the summer in the 70s.
That was before trillions of dollars of government money were poured into the system.
Why should students have to go into dept so that employers can get low cost labor?
I agree, stop giving unlimited government loans to anyone with a pulse.
- Aug 4, 2009
- 281,163
- 140,693
- 2,615
All unrelated to the $7.25 wageAbsolutelyBecause minimum wage is our starter wage. Not intended to support a family but to allow a worker to establish themselves in the workforce. Get an education, buy a car, get a place to livePrice of everything?
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Price of everything?
Price of tuition. Price of healthcare.
Just to name the two biggest.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Why should it?
$7.25 does not do that
Why do you think it should be enough to do those things?
It's meant for the least skilled, least experienced.
People who should be taking the bus, living with parents, still in high school.
Currently, less than 2% make MW or less.
Starting wage
Meant for young workers trying to move up the ladder
I could pay my college tuition making minimum wage over the summer in the 70s.
Today’s college students have to work all summer and then take out massive student loans to get through school
Why should students have to go into dept so that employers can get low cost labor?
Starting wage
Meant for young workers trying to move up the ladder
Yup. Decent workers quickly earn more.
I could pay my college tuition making minimum wage over the summer in the 70s.
That was before trillions of dollars of government money were poured into the system.
Why should students have to go into dept so that employers can get low cost labor?
I agree, stop giving unlimited government loans to anyone with a pulse.
Students need those loans because minimum wages no longer pay enough for tuition. Those loans subsidize employers who profit off of low cost labor
All unrelated to the $7.25 wageAbsolutelyBecause minimum wage is our starter wage. Not intended to support a family but to allow a worker to establish themselves in the workforce. Get an education, buy a car, get a place to livePrice of everything?
Price of tuition. Price of healthcare.
Just to name the two biggest.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Why should it?
$7.25 does not do that
Why do you think it should be enough to do those things?
It's meant for the least skilled, least experienced.
People who should be taking the bus, living with parents, still in high school.
Currently, less than 2% make MW or less.
Starting wage
Meant for young workers trying to move up the ladder
I could pay my college tuition making minimum wage over the summer in the 70s.
Today’s college students have to work all summer and then take out massive student loans to get through school
Why should students have to go into dept so that employers can get low cost labor?
Starting wage
Meant for young workers trying to move up the ladder
Yup. Decent workers quickly earn more.
I could pay my college tuition making minimum wage over the summer in the 70s.
That was before trillions of dollars of government money were poured into the system.
Why should students have to go into dept so that employers can get low cost labor?
I agree, stop giving unlimited government loans to anyone with a pulse.
Students need those loans because minimum wages no longer pay enough for tuition. Those loans subsidize employers who profit off of low cost labor
Students need those loans because minimum wages no longer pay enough for tuition.
Tuition is no longer affordable because government has thrown trillions at college tuition.
Cut off the money flow, colleges would have to layoff professors, like Elizabeth Warren, who had light workloads and fat paychecks. They'd have to stop wasting millions on giant football stadiums, climbing walls FFS, etc. etc. and get back to basics at affordable prices.
Those loans subsidize employers who profit off of low cost labor
Oh, please. Very few students work through school anymore, because they can borrow unlimited amounts from the Feds.
Toronado3800
Gold Member
- Nov 15, 2009
- 7,608
- 560
- 140
I'm sure this thread has been done to death, but I have never followed any as of yet. I think it boils down to one simple question. Are minimum wage jobs meant to support and raise families, to be the primary income for families? Does it make sense for someone working at McDonald's for 30 hrs a week, if they can get those hours, to say hey, I think I'll have three kids? I know many Republicans make the erroneous statement that it is just high school kids getting their first jobs. Many, many adults work minimum wage jobs, and many adults are not able to move up to better jobs. This doesn't change anything however, because if you are an adult, I would hope you would not try to start a family on a minimum wage job. Why do Democrats think that adults who work minimum wage jobs should have kids they can't afford? I have a strong hunch that the attempt to make every single job in America a bread winning family supporting job is a folly. Does it make sense that every job should guarantee the ability to raise a family? I think it makes more sense for people to wait to have kids until if or when they can afford them. Is that a radical idea?
I dunno. Its a deep topic. Minimum wage going up is going to cause inflation. Inflation will lessen the burden of plenty of bad mortgages.
Also consider those for illegals are effectively for people working under minimum wage. Those against illegals are demanding businesses pay at least minimum wage.
Most inflation is caused by investor returns. In the mid-70's investors received 10% of net profit, today it's 50%.
Most inflation is caused by investor returns.
Toro
What do you think?
Investor as in investors in real estate? That seems to snowball based on short term returns.
Investor return on widget manufacturing has a different effect when more folks figure out how tobskirt big government regulations and make widgets flooding the market on something like flat screen tv's
I'm sure this thread has been done to death, but I have never followed any as of yet. I think it boils down to one simple question. Are minimum wage jobs meant to support and raise families, to be the primary income for families? Does it make sense for someone working at McDonald's for 30 hrs a week, if they can get those hours, to say hey, I think I'll have three kids? I know many Republicans make the erroneous statement that it is just high school kids getting their first jobs. Many, many adults work minimum wage jobs, and many adults are not able to move up to better jobs. This doesn't change anything however, because if you are an adult, I would hope you would not try to start a family on a minimum wage job. Why do Democrats think that adults who work minimum wage jobs should have kids they can't afford? I have a strong hunch that the attempt to make every single job in America a bread winning family supporting job is a folly. Does it make sense that every job should guarantee the ability to raise a family? I think it makes more sense for people to wait to have kids until if or when they can afford them. Is that a radical idea?
I dunno. Its a deep topic. Minimum wage going up is going to cause inflation. Inflation will lessen the burden of plenty of bad mortgages.
Also consider those for illegals are effectively for people working under minimum wage. Those against illegals are demanding businesses pay at least minimum wage.
Most inflation is caused by investor returns. In the mid-70's investors received 10% of net profit, today it's 50%.
Based on what?
The total shareholder payout is going to be dramatically different between companies based on the number of outstanding shares.
It is also going to be dramatically different between companies that are buying back shares, and companies that are not.
Besides that, you people on the left claim you want to get money out of corporations, and into the hands of citizens.
Well, the largest investors in corporate stock, is pensions and retirement plans. Wouldn't a higher payout of profits going to the people, be a good thing?
Toronado3800
Gold Member
- Nov 15, 2009
- 7,608
- 560
- 140
I'm sure this thread has been done to death, but I have never followed any as of yet. I think it boils down to one simple question. Are minimum wage jobs meant to support and raise families, to be the primary income for families? Does it make sense for someone working at McDonald's for 30 hrs a week, if they can get those hours, to say hey, I think I'll have three kids? I know many Republicans make the erroneous statement that it is just high school kids getting their first jobs. Many, many adults work minimum wage jobs, and many adults are not able to move up to better jobs. This doesn't change anything however, because if you are an adult, I would hope you would not try to start a family on a minimum wage job. Why do Democrats think that adults who work minimum wage jobs should have kids they can't afford? I have a strong hunch that the attempt to make every single job in America a bread winning family supporting job is a folly. Does it make sense that every job should guarantee the ability to raise a family? I think it makes more sense for people to wait to have kids until if or when they can afford them. Is that a radical idea?
I dunno. Its a deep topic. Minimum wage going up is going to cause inflation. Inflation will lessen the burden of plenty of bad mortgages.
Also consider those for illegals are effectively for people working under minimum wage. Those against illegals are demanding businesses pay at least minimum wage.
Most inflation is caused by investor returns. In the mid-70's investors received 10% of net profit, today it's 50%.
Based on what?
The total shareholder payout is going to be dramatically different between companies based on the number of outstanding shares.
It is also going to be dramatically different between companies that are buying back shares, and companies that are not.
Besides that, you people on the left claim you want to get money out of corporations, and into the hands of citizens.
Well, the largest investors in corporate stock, is pensions and retirement plans. Wouldn't a higher payout of profits going to the people, be a good thing?
I am on the cell and need to use more words.
If Sony can make a flat tv and turn a good profit another company is going to steal the patent of they have to or get around it and make a flat tv themselves. Then another and another and the price of flat tv's will deflate not inflate.
Make it a finite item like land and you may see a rush, infation, one folks start flippin for profit more follow
I'm sure this thread has been done to death, but I have never followed any as of yet. I think it boils down to one simple question. Are minimum wage jobs meant to support and raise families, to be the primary income for families? Does it make sense for someone working at McDonald's for 30 hrs a week, if they can get those hours, to say hey, I think I'll have three kids? I know many Republicans make the erroneous statement that it is just high school kids getting their first jobs. Many, many adults work minimum wage jobs, and many adults are not able to move up to better jobs. This doesn't change anything however, because if you are an adult, I would hope you would not try to start a family on a minimum wage job. Why do Democrats think that adults who work minimum wage jobs should have kids they can't afford? I have a strong hunch that the attempt to make every single job in America a bread winning family supporting job is a folly. Does it make sense that every job should guarantee the ability to raise a family? I think it makes more sense for people to wait to have kids until if or when they can afford them. Is that a radical idea?
I dunno. Its a deep topic. Minimum wage going up is going to cause inflation. Inflation will lessen the burden of plenty of bad mortgages.
Also consider those for illegals are effectively for people working under minimum wage. Those against illegals are demanding businesses pay at least minimum wage.
Most inflation is caused by investor returns. In the mid-70's investors received 10% of net profit, today it's 50%.
Most inflation is caused by investor returns.
Toro
What do you think?
Investor as in investors in real estate? That seems to snowball based on short term returns.
Investor return on widget manufacturing has a different effect when more folks figure out how tobskirt big government regulations and make widgets flooding the market on something like flat screen tv's
Why is that bad? What are you talking about?
Do you want everything to be more expensive? Because that is effectively saying you want everyone poorer.
When someone says "flood the market" to me that means we can get more goods cheaper. Because that is the effect. We get more goods cheaper.
So by all means flood the market. I'd love to be able to replace my car, with a better car at a lower price. How is this bad?
I don't get out of bed for less than $10 an hour. And if you actually want me to labor you damn well better pay more than that.Because minimum wage is our starter wage. Not intended to support a family but to allow a worker to establish themselves in the workforce. Get an education, buy a car, get a place to livePrice of everything?Let’s look at it this way
When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months. I could buy a new car after working six months. On an hours work, I could buy seven gallons of gas for that car.
It would take you $15 an hour to do the same today
When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months.
Throw trillions of government dollars into demand, without increasing supply, you'll cause the price to go up.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Price of everything?
Price of tuition. Price of healthcare.
Just to name the two biggest.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Why should it?
$7.25 does not do that
Why do you think it should be enough to do those things?
It's meant for the least skilled, least experienced.
People who should be taking the bus, living with parents, still in high school.
Currently, less than 2% make MW or less.
Too many jobs pay minimum wage, or just a bit over minimum wage that require experience to do them, or adulthood responsibility to do them. They aren't jobs made for kids. You are wrong.
Why should the federal minimum wage rate be increased and retain its purchasing power? Because it affects all wages in the USA.... Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity. Why should it?
The purchasing power of the median wage is an excellent indicator of USA's middle income families' finances.
The greatest proprtion of those families are primailly dependent upon employment. A great many commercaial enterprises are to a large extent dependent upon the finacial condition of the middle third of our nation's income earners. When they and their families cannot afford to purchase goods and services, our GDP is much less than otherwise.
ToddsterPatriot, you continue demonstrating that you weren't pretending to be ignorant.
I don't get out of bed for less than $10 an hour. And if you actually want me to labor you damn well better pay more than that.Because minimum wage is our starter wage. Not intended to support a family but to allow a worker to establish themselves in the workforce. Get an education, buy a car, get a place to livePrice of everything?When I made minimum wage at $2.10 an hour in the 70s, I was able to pay for a year of college after working three months.
Throw trillions of government dollars into demand, without increasing supply, you'll cause the price to go up.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Price of everything?
Price of tuition. Price of healthcare.
Just to name the two biggest.
Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity
Why should it?
$7.25 does not do that
Why do you think it should be enough to do those things?
It's meant for the least skilled, least experienced.
People who should be taking the bus, living with parents, still in high school.
Currently, less than 2% make MW or less.
Too many jobs pay minimum wage, or just a bit over minimum wage that require experience to do them, or adulthood responsibility to do them. They aren't jobs made for kids. You are wrong.
Too many jobs pay minimum wage,
Less than 2%.
Why should the federal minimum wage rate be increased and retain its purchasing power? Because it affects all wages in the USA.... Minimum wage has not kept pace with any basic commodity. Why should it?
The purchasing power of the median wage is an excellent indicator of USA's middle income families' finances.
The greatest proprtion of those families are primailly dependent upon employment. A great many commercaial enterprises are to a large extent dependent upon the finacial condition of the middle third of our nation's income earners. When they and their families cannot afford to purchase goods and services, our GDP is much less than otherwise.
ToddsterPatriot, you continue demonstrating that you weren't pretending to be ignorant.
Because it affects all wages in the USA.
Prove it.
You don't even know the current median wage. Idiot.
Similar threads
- Replies
- 280
- Views
- 3K
- Replies
- 22
- Views
- 325
- Replies
- 22
- Views
- 336
Latest Discussions
- Replies
- 0
- Views
- 1
Forum List
-
-
-
-
-
Political Satire 8040
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
ObamaCare 781
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Member Usernotes 469
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-