Expectations of Minimum Wage

[rightwinger]

More than tuition is out of reach for those earning minimum wage

A car, an apartment, basic necessities....all I could buy on a $2.10 minimum wage.

Students borrow because they have no other choice given the wages they are paid

That's funny.
Tuition via all manner of grants available is well within reach of ANYONE who applies themselves.

Grants are limited
We are not talking about affordability of tuition for top students, but affordability for all students

Which has risen dramatically primarily due to government involvement. Millions of students getting a free ride, no strings attached, including enough funds for room and board, that never graduate.
This encourages schools to raise tuition, which the government seems to have no limit to just saying "ok" and pay up.

If it were just tuition, you may have a point

But it is all goods and services that are becoming out of reach at minimum wage

At $2.10 an hour, I could afford to buy a new car after working six months
At $7.25, you would have to work over a year

On an hours pay I could buy seven gallons of gas for that car. At $7.25 you can’t buy three

Inflation on those items is the big problem also.
And you will get no argument from me that wages in America are far too stagnant.
It's what happens when our country became a corporatocracy

Employers have made adjustments for inflation in their rents, taxes, costs of supplies, advertising, energy

They have ignored their workforce

 

[iamwhatiseem]

That's funny.
Tuition via all manner of grants available is well within reach of ANYONE who applies themselves.

Grants are limited
We are not talking about affordability of tuition for top students, but affordability for all students

Which has risen dramatically primarily due to government involvement. Millions of students getting a free ride, no strings attached, including enough funds for room and board, that never graduate.
This encourages schools to raise tuition, which the government seems to have no limit to just saying "ok" and pay up.

If it were just tuition, you may have a point

But it is all goods and services that are becoming out of reach at minimum wage

At $2.10 an hour, I could afford to buy a new car after working six months
At $7.25, you would have to work over a year

On an hours pay I could buy seven gallons of gas for that car. At $7.25 you can’t buy three

Inflation on those items is the big problem also.
And you will get no argument from me that wages in America are far too stagnant.
It's what happens when our country became a corporatocracy

Employers have made adjustments for inflation in their rents, taxes, costs of supplies, advertising, energy

They have ignored their workforce

110% correct.

 

[Supposn]

I'm sure this thread has been done to death, but I have never followed any as of yet. I think it boils down to one simple question. Are minimum wage jobs meant to support and raise families, to be the primary income for families? Does it make sense for someone working at McDonald's for 30 hrs a week, if they can get those hours, to say hey, I think I'll have three kids? I know many Republicans make the erroneous statement that it is just high school kids getting their first jobs. Many, many adults work minimum wage jobs, and many adults are not able to move up to better jobs. This doesn't change anything however, because if you are an adult, I would hope you would not try to start a family on a minimum wage job. Why do Democrats think that adults who work minimum wage jobs should have kids they can't afford? I have a strong hunch that the attempt to make every single job in America a bread winning family supporting job is a folly. Does it make sense that every job should guarantee the ability to raise a family? I think it makes more sense for people to wait to have kids until if or when they can afford them. Is that a radical idea?

DustyInfinity, I suppose the Congress's purpose when they passed the first federal minimum wage was to put an explicitly specific floor under the hourly pay rates paid for the least desirable employees, performing the least challenging tasks, anywhere within the United States borders.

Over our years of modifying that minimum rate, the federal law continues to poorly serve that same purpose. If our Congress had any other purpose in mind, the federal law doesn't accomplish it.

The minimum rate doesn't affect all pay scales equally, but it does indirectly bolster all USA wages (including USA's median wage), and it has never been a primary contributor to U.S. dollar's loss of purchasing power. The purchasing power of USA's median wage is among the best indicators of our nation's living standards.

Unless there's a shortage of unskilled labor, the poorer purchasing power of our federal minimum wage to some extent generally drags upon the purchasing powers of USA's wages.
That's why I'm among the proponents of a higher federal minimum wage rate that retains its purchasing power. (Refer to post #91).

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I'm sure this thread has been done to death, but I have never followed any as of yet. I think it boils down to one simple question. Are minimum wage jobs meant to support and raise families, to be the primary income for families? Does it make sense for someone working at McDonald's for 30 hrs a week, if they can get those hours, to say hey, I think I'll have three kids? I know many Republicans make the erroneous statement that it is just high school kids getting their first jobs. Many, many adults work minimum wage jobs, and many adults are not able to move up to better jobs. This doesn't change anything however, because if you are an adult, I would hope you would not try to start a family on a minimum wage job. Why do Democrats think that adults who work minimum wage jobs should have kids they can't afford? I have a strong hunch that the attempt to make every single job in America a bread winning family supporting job is a folly. Does it make sense that every job should guarantee the ability to raise a family? I think it makes more sense for people to wait to have kids until if or when they can afford them. Is that a radical idea?

DustyInfinity, I suppose the Congress's purpose when they passed the first federal minimum wage was to put an explicitly specific floor under the hourly pay rates paid for the least desirable employees, performing the least challenging tasks, anywhere within the United States borders.

Over our years of modifying that minimum rate, the federal law continues to poorly serve that same purpose. If our Congress had any other purpose in mind, the federal law doesn't accomplish it.

The minimum rate doesn't affect all pay scales equally, but it does indirectly bolster all USA wages (including USA's median wage), and it has never been a primary contributor to U.S. dollar's loss of purchasing power. The purchasing power of USA's median wage is among the best indicators of our nation's living standards.

Unless there's a shortage of unskilled labor, the poorer purchasing power of our federal minimum wage to some extent generally drags upon the purchasing powers of USA's wages.
That's why I'm among the proponents of a higher federal minimum wage rate that retains its purchasing power. (Refer to post #91).

Respectfully, Supposn

but it does indirectly bolster all USA wages (including USA's median wage),

You're lying.

 

[dblack]

If the thought is that we can improve the lot of the poor by banning low wage jobs, why not just ban poverty? It's the same logic.

 

[Supposn]

Employers have made adjustments for inflation in their rents, taxes, costs of supplies, advertising, energy.
They have ignored their workforce

RightWinger, landlords, governments, and all other suppliers of goods and services, have expenses are our pressed to demand payments from their customers and clients. Minimum wage employees have extremely little leverage and employers can more easily disregard them, (until and unless they need and are less able to hire them).

The minimum rate has a greater effect upon lower-wages and a lesser effect upon higher wages, but it affects all USA labor markets.
Respectfully, Supposn

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Employers have made adjustments for inflation in their rents, taxes, costs of supplies, advertising, energy.
They have ignored their workforce

RightWinger, landlords, governments, and all other suppliers of goods and services, have expenses are our pressed to demand payments from their customers and clients. Minimum wage employees have extremely little leverage and employers can more easily disregard them, (until and unless they need and are less able to hire them).

The minimum rate has a greater effect upon lower-wages and a lesser effect upon higher wages, but it affects all USA labor markets.
Respectfully, Supposn

Just sayin, he was replying within context of our posts to each other. That overall wages have been ignored, and there is no deniyng that. The stats are clear and speak loudly

 

[rightwinger]

Employers have made adjustments for inflation in their rents, taxes, costs of supplies, advertising, energy.
They have ignored their workforce

RightWinger, landlords, governments, and all other suppliers of goods and services, have expenses are our pressed to demand payments from their customers and clients. Minimum wage employees have extremely little leverage and employers can more easily disregard them, (until and unless they need and are less able to hire them).

The minimum rate has a greater effect upon lower-wages and a lesser effect upon higher wages, but it affects all USA labor markets.
Respectfully, Supposn

Agree

Low skilled labor has little bargaining power and can be quickly replaced. They are forced to accept low wages ......that is why we need a minimum wage

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Employers have made adjustments for inflation in their rents, taxes, costs of supplies, advertising, energy.
They have ignored their workforce

RightWinger, landlords, governments, and all other suppliers of goods and services, have expenses are our pressed to demand payments from their customers and clients. Minimum wage employees have extremely little leverage and employers can more easily disregard them, (until and unless they need and are less able to hire them).

The minimum rate has a greater effect upon lower-wages and a lesser effect upon higher wages, but it affects all USA labor markets.
Respectfully, Supposn

Agree

Low skilled labor has little bargaining power and can be quickly replaced. They are forced to accept low wages ......that is why we need a minimum wage

And here is where we will disagree a little, I loved a line by Chris Christie said in his defunct Presidential run... "it's not a shortage of money that is the problem, it is a shortage of better opportunity".
He was dead on correct.
Before America was wholly corrupted and effected by Globalism and Corporatism, there were real jobs for the masses. College/Professional careers are not for everyone. Many people can't cut it academically, but still had real, honest value as laborers and support staff.
Those jobs are gone.
That is the problem. Minimum wage issues are a symptom, not the problem.

 

[oldsoul]

Too many jobs require experience only or college degrees and then only pay $10 an hour or less. My Nephew handles thousands of dollars a day in sales and only makes a bit over $8 an hour. Positions of responsibility should pay more.

I agree, and disagree. Let me tell you a story. I was once, not too many years ago, making about $8/hr running a department that did over a $1 million in sales annually. I said to myself, "Self, you deserve better pay." So, I went to my boss and asked for a raise. He said "no". I still thought I deserved better pay. What did I do?

I found a better paying job!!!!

That's the free market.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Too many jobs require experience only or college degrees and then only pay $10 an hour or less. My Nephew handles thousands of dollars a day in sales and only makes a bit over $8 an hour. Positions of responsibility should pay more.

I agree, and disagree. Let me tell you a story. I was once, not too many years ago, making about $8/hr running a department that did over a $1 million in sales annually. I said to myself, "Self, you deserve better pay." So, I went to my boss and asked for a raise. He said "no". I still thought I deserved better pay. What did I do?

I found a better paying job!!!!

That's the free market.

America is far-far-far from a free market. You know that right?

 

[oldsoul]

Too many jobs require experience only or college degrees and then only pay $10 an hour or less. My Nephew handles thousands of dollars a day in sales and only makes a bit over $8 an hour. Positions of responsibility should pay more.

I agree, and disagree. Let me tell you a story. I was once, not too many years ago, making about $8/hr running a department that did over a $1 million in sales annually. I said to myself, "Self, you deserve better pay." So, I went to my boss and asked for a raise. He said "no". I still thought I deserved better pay. What did I do?

I found a better paying job!!!!

That's the free market.

America is far-far-far from a free market. You know that right?

I know that it is not a totally free market. Sadly, people, attempting to do good, have managed to bring us further and further from a truly free market, with varying degrees of success. That said, the only totally free market I am aware of is called "The Black Market". No government control of ANYTHING. I seriously doubt anyone, other than anarchists, would say THAT market is a good thing. IMHO there needs to be SOME government "control" on certain aspects of any economy, at least enough to make it difficult for bad actors to do nefarious things. However, control is not really the right word, perhaps "oversight" with very limited regulatory powers would be a better way of describing what I would want.

 

[dblack]

IMHO there needs to be SOME government "control" on certain aspects of any economy, at least enough to make it difficult for bad actors to do nefarious things.

That's not "control". There's a distinct difference between rules that prevent theft and fraud, and those that impose conformity for the convenience of some (usually at the expense of others).

However, control is not really the right word, perhaps "oversight" with very limited regulatory powers would be a better way of describing what I would want.

It's still a loaded term. What do you mean by 'oversight'? Sounds like that could be anything from basic laws protecting property rights to a mandate that we buy health insurance from government approved vendors.

 

[oldsoul]

It's still a loaded term. What do you mean by 'oversight'? Sounds like that could be anything from basic laws protecting property rights to a mandate that we buy health insurance from government approved vendors.

I purposely did not define what I meant. I have, as yet, not fully defined it for myself. That said, it would fall somewhere between, much closer to laws protecting rights, and not much else.

 

[oldsoul]

That's not "control". There's a distinct difference between rules that prevent theft and fraud, and those that impose conformity for the convenience of some (usually at the expense of others).

Actually, control is the right term in a macro sense. Prior to the Great Depression, there were wild swings in the national economy, not true today. Sure there have been some exceptions, but on the whole we have a much more stable economy that prior to the institution of The Federal Reserve Bank. Not that I'm a fan of the Fed, I'm not. However, they have, historically, done a better job of stabilizing our economy than without. I would imagine that there is a better solution, I, however, do not know what it is. I believe that, now that we have grown accustomed to the stability, should the Fed be dissolved, someone would come up with a free market solution.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

That's not "control". There's a distinct difference between rules that prevent theft and fraud, and those that impose conformity for the convenience of some (usually at the expense of others).

Actually, control is the right term in a macro sense. Prior to the Great Depression, there were wild swings in the national economy, not true today. Sure there have been some exceptions, but on the whole we have a much more stable economy that prior to the institution of The Federal Reserve Bank. Not that I'm a fan of the Fed, I'm not. However, they have, historically, done a better job of stabilizing our economy than without. I would imagine that there is a better solution, I, however, do not know what it is. I believe that, now that we have grown accustomed to the stability, should the Fed be dissolved, someone would come up with a free market solution.

There are no exceptions to the rule that any economic system, no matter how large or small eventually gets corrupt. There has never been, or will ever be a human ran economy that does not have a measure of corruption.
The key to a better system is to remove as much corruption as possible. In America, we are going in the opposite direction.
At some point in the late 1970's a tectonic shift occurred in the American system - when preference and attention was shifted from the customer to the shareholder. Prior to this, companies put all of their attention to the number one goal - sales. Growing market share through developing better products and services, with a particular eye on value to their customers.
Today, with few exception, market share is not attained with a better product, it is simply bought. You buy up competing businesses, and the last one left has it all. Today in more and more and more markets - the entire nation has only a small handful of suppliers in an entire industry.

 

[rightwinger]

Employers have made adjustments for inflation in their rents, taxes, costs of supplies, advertising, energy.
They have ignored their workforce

RightWinger, landlords, governments, and all other suppliers of goods and services, have expenses are our pressed to demand payments from their customers and clients. Minimum wage employees have extremely little leverage and employers can more easily disregard them, (until and unless they need and are less able to hire them).

The minimum rate has a greater effect upon lower-wages and a lesser effect upon higher wages, but it affects all USA labor markets.
Respectfully, Supposn

Agree

Low skilled labor has little bargaining power and can be quickly replaced. They are forced to accept low wages ......that is why we need a minimum wage

And here is where we will disagree a little, I loved a line by Chris Christie said in his defunct Presidential run... "it's not a shortage of money that is the problem, it is a shortage of better opportunity".
He was dead on correct.
Before America was wholly corrupted and effected by Globalism and Corporatism, there were real jobs for the masses. College/Professional careers are not for everyone. Many people can't cut it academically, but still had real, honest value as laborers and support staff.
Those jobs are gone.
That is the problem. Minimum wage issues are a symptom, not the problem.

I agree
There was a time when low skilled jobs led to better opportunities
They were a foot in the door
A janitor or ditch digger earned enough to support a family

Now, minimum wage leads to another low paid job

 

[dblack]

Now, minimum wage leads to another low paid job

Heh... that sounds like some rank bullshit right there. Pretty much everyone I know started with low wage jobs. And most of them moved beyond it. Guess they didn't get the memo.

 

[rightwinger]

Now, minimum wage leads to another low paid job

Heh... that sounds like some rank bullshit right there. Pretty much everyone I know started with low wage jobs. And most of them moved beyond it. Guess they didn't get the memo.

Those in college who work minimum wage get better jobs
Those who take those jobs out of high school have limited career advancement

 

[dblack]

Now, minimum wage leads to another low paid job

Heh... that sounds like some rank bullshit right there. Pretty much everyone I know started with low wage jobs. And most of them moved beyond it. Guess they didn't get the memo.

Those in college who work minimum wage get better jobs
Those who take those jobs out of high school have limited career advancement

Again, you're full of shit. My son dropped out of high school. Worked minimum wage jobs into his twenties. Now he's a software engineer at Google. But that doesn't fit your narrative. Sorry.