Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West.

[rylah]

You can’t address the questions? That is all you can come up with, lobbing insults? Insulting family? Are you channeling another member here because you suddenly are not posting in your normal way.

Well this is a good example of typical abusive manipulative behavior.
You've started cursing already from the 2nd message You sent me today.
In spite that all along our conversation there was no reason to keep calling names.

And now, You're pretending to be a victim...
nice try, but I just won't bite.

 

[rylah]

If one imagine that Israel became a big state with a number of nationalities and religions inside of it. And the power in this Israel was seized by an Orthodox Jews. It became a theocracy with Orthodox rabbis heading the state and imposing religious laws upon the society.

What role would be preserved for religious and national minorities in such a state? What role of women would be? What rules would be regarding public behavior, appearance, arts and so on?

No such animal possible.
Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.

In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.

There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule- a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.

Educate Yourself with the basics.

Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.

Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.

I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.

For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.

If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.

Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.

Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.

As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.

In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.

'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews

'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town

Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back

And that exists considering they are a minority overall. Also, I have seen several videos where Orthodoxes block the roads demanding some things. The most interesting part is that the Orthodox communities live virtually at the expense of the Isrseli society. Only 50 percent of their men have a job and this even is considered a high number comparing with the past.

Btw, I have asked several times about Hasids on this forum. But the Jews here aren't willing to discuss them. I wonder why. Sometimes silence speaks much more than any words.

Why, I actually wanted to address that later after the holiday, my best friend is actually a Hossid,
but You guys can just keep the smear festival among Yourselves, seem to enjoy it...
so maybe I simply shouldn't interrupt?

Anyway forgive my bad manners, I'll still interrupt that circle of joy with some reality check - more than 50% officially employed , many are owners of leading world startups, talking silicon valley stuff.

Other's write Torah scrolls, which most of us probably can't afford, teach, write books or whatever.
These guys usually have 6-14 kids, so I think they actually work harder than most of us "machos".
My Hossid friend served in Lebanon and drives a truck for 12 hours a day...

So thank You for the concern, but no thanks.

 

[ESay]

No such animal possible.
Again You folks are projecting Christianity and Islam on Judaism.

In Judaism the govt сan't impose that which the nation is not willing to accept.
Neither Jewish law allow any such things as "theocracy", monarchy yes, and even that too, is function of popular agreement.

There was only one such occasion in Jewish history of an attempt to run a "theocracy" aka rule of priesthood, that was called the Hashmonean rule- a vivid example of an illegitimate gotv, according to the "orthodox" law itself (if there's such a thing to begin with) that fell for that exact reason.

Educate Yourself with the basics.

Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.

Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.

I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.

For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.

If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.

Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.

Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.

As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.

In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.

'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews

'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town

Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back

And that exists considering they are a minority overall. Also, I have seen several videos where Orthodoxes block the roads demanding some things. The most interesting part is that the Orthodox communities live virtually at the expense of the Isrseli society. Only 50 percent of their men have a job and this even is considered a high number comparing with the past.

Btw, I have asked several times about Hasids on this forum. But the Jews here aren't willing to discuss them. I wonder why. Sometimes silence speaks much more than any words.

Why, I actually wanted to address that later after the holiday, my best friend is actually a Hossid,
but You guys can just keep the smear festival among Yourselves, seem to enjoy it...
so maybe I simply shouldn't interrupt?

Anyway forgive my bad manners, I'll still interrupt that circle of joy with some reality check - more than 50% officially employed , many are owners of leading world startups, talking silicon valley stuff.

Other's write Torah scrolls, which most of us probably can't afford, teach, write books or whatever.
These guys usually have 6-14 kids, so I think they actually work harder than most of us "machos".
My Hossid friend served in Lebanon and drives a truck for 12 hours a day...

So thank You for the concern, but no thanks.

Sorry, man, didn't want to offend anyone. Thanks for input.

No smearing intended, btw. Just trying of a little education for myself.

I will later write about what I meant trying to compare 'true followers' of some religions.

 

[Kilroy2]

If everyone got along then the world would be so peachy

Difference exist because it is in human DNA and people have different experiences, aspirations, and views about the world

If religion cannot heal the divide then politics does not stand a chance.

if opposites attract then they also repel and everyone has an opinion

It is easy to agree but even harder to agree to disagree

then again maybe it just admiration that turns to jealous

 

[rylah]

Theocracy is impossible? Okay. After some time, becsuse of demography, the majority on the Knesset is got by Orthodox parties. They form the government and are able to carry out their policy as they want. Is it possible? And my previous questions still stand - about religious minorities, women and the public rules.

Unless I am mistaken, in some places the Orthodoxes had their demands met about public transport being not operated in Sabbath, for example.

I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.

For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.

If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.

Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.

Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.

As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.

In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.

'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews

'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town

Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back

And that exists considering they are a minority overall. Also, I have seen several videos where Orthodoxes block the roads demanding some things. The most interesting part is that the Orthodox communities live virtually at the expense of the Isrseli society. Only 50 percent of their men have a job and this even is considered a high number comparing with the past.

Btw, I have asked several times about Hasids on this forum. But the Jews here aren't willing to discuss them. I wonder why. Sometimes silence speaks much more than any words.

Why, I actually wanted to address that later after the holiday, my best friend is actually a Hossid,
but You guys can just keep the smear festival among Yourselves, seem to enjoy it...
so maybe I simply shouldn't interrupt?

Anyway forgive my bad manners, I'll still interrupt that circle of joy with some reality check - more than 50% officially employed , many are owners of leading world startups, talking silicon valley stuff.

Other's write Torah scrolls, which most of us probably can't afford, teach, write books or whatever.
These guys usually have 6-14 kids, so I think they actually work harder than most of us "machos".
My Hossid friend served in Lebanon and drives a truck for 12 hours a day...

So thank You for the concern, but no thanks.

Sorry, man, didn't want to offend anyone. Thanks for input.

No smearing intended, btw. Just trying of a little education for myself.

I will later write about what I meant trying to compare 'true followers' of some religions.

Yeah, sorry don't take it personally.
It's just that much of the media is spreading vulgar lies about the community,
I get defensive and spiky by default, but myself realize it's not an easy subject to swallow, and sift through all the typical bs being usually told. People don't realize even the tip of the amount of kindness and warmth they give without one even asking for...
Just love 'em from the bottom of the heart.

Be well, later.

 

[Coyote]

You can’t address the questions? That is all you can come up with, lobbing insults? Insulting family? Are you channeling another member here because you suddenly are not posting in your normal way.

Well this is a good example of typical abusive manipulative behavior.
You've started cursing already from the 2nd message You sent me today.
In spite that all along our conversation there was no reason to keep calling names.

And now, You're pretending to be a victim...
nice try, but I just won't bite.

You attacked my family. You attacked me in your FIRST post to me, name calling. And you continued. You get upset when I responded back in kind. Why? It doesn’t matter what I post.

Let’s look at what you say about the Hassid. You are upset and angry at any criticism towards them, even if legitimate. Every group has it’s positives and negatives and every group has good people and bad people. The problem is people tend to try to define them by their bad people when convenient or to push an agenda. Pointing out a reality, that there are some problems with Hassid is not saying they are bad, it is being honest.

Gender segregation. We are highly critical of it in Muslim communities. But we can’t be critical of it in Hasidic communities? Even though it does cause tensions and inequality? It doesn’t mean they are bad people, or that They aren’t also warm and generous. Palestinian Muslims also segregated women in worship, and are very unequal in their treatment of women. They also have a reputation for warm and generous hospitality. But that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical about their treatment of women and also recognize there are many good people in that community as well.

 

[Vagabond63]

Wow, this thread went west fast, a thread about eastern and western europeans' views on the EU turned into one on Israeli culture. My advice, for what it's worth, is to move the relevant thread posts into the Israel-Palestine cesspit, sorry, I mean forum.

 

[Vagabond63]

Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties. I dont see how that is a good thing. They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.

Deterioration of Religious Freedom in Eastern Europe | CAP Freedom of Conscience

In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service

Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.

What does a "standard of living" even mean?

Just look at your avatar picture, that denotes a certain "standard" of living, does it not?

 

[Vagabond63]

My sick beliefs? Oh, Ok, so because I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty, because I believe in the legal due process as opposed to lynch mob justice; because I believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they want unless that belief is used to oppress, persecute or discriminate against those who have different views, I’m somehow “sub human” and my beliefs are “sick”?

Methinks you are projecting again, your posts reveal much more about who you really are and what you really believe in. I pity you.

I am not the antisemite spouting the talking points utilized to justify the systematic extermination of 6 million innocent people.

You are.

Oh, right. As you are the only one who leapt to such a conclusion, you make it very clear to all that's how your mind works, projecting your own vile prejudices onto others.

There was no leap, filth.

You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.

Once again, a stirling display of projecting your own ignorance and prejudice onto others, you must really get off on wallowing in "filth" of your own making, sad.

Oh, BTW, if Islam ever takes over in the UK, mine will be amongst the first "heads to roll", not a fan of any monotheistic religious dogma, my dogmaphile friend.

Your canard about the sneaky Jew manipulating others to fight each other is right out of the Nazi playbook.

Really? I suspect you have a far better knowledge of the "Nazi playbook" than I ever will.

Trump and Republicans are ginning up fake anti-Semitism for political gain. Don't buy it.

How the Right Has Tried to Rebrand Anti-Semitism

 

[Mindful]

Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties. I dont see how that is a good thing. They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.

Deterioration of Religious Freedom in Eastern Europe | CAP Freedom of Conscience

In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service

Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.

What does a "standard of living" even mean?

Just look at your avatar picture, that denotes a certain "standard" of living, does it not?

No it does not.

It's a metaphor. Do you even know what a metaphor is?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I am not the antisemite spouting the talking points utilized to justify the systematic extermination of 6 million innocent people.

You are.

Oh, right. As you are the only one who leapt to such a conclusion, you make it very clear to all that's how your mind works, projecting your own vile prejudices onto others.

There was no leap, filth.

You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.

Once again, a stirling display of projecting your own ignorance and prejudice onto others, you must really get off on wallowing in "filth" of your own making, sad.

Oh, BTW, if Islam ever takes over in the UK, mine will be amongst the first "heads to roll", not a fan of any monotheistic religious dogma, my dogmaphile friend.

Your canard about the sneaky Jew manipulating others to fight each other is right out of the Nazi playbook.

Really? I suspect you have a far better knowledge of the "Nazi playbook" than I ever will.

Trump and Republicans are ginning up fake anti-Semitism for political gain. Don't buy it.

How the Right Has Tried to Rebrand Anti-Semitism

There has been no re-branding.

Your themes of the puppet master Jew manipulating others to war against each other are as old as the hills.

I see you have another confirmed antisemite in your corner, but no matter how you Nazis squirm and deflect, you are still indulging in Nazi rhetoric.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties. I dont see how that is a good thing. They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.

Deterioration of Religious Freedom in Eastern Europe | CAP Freedom of Conscience

In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service

Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.

What does a "standard of living" even mean?

Just look at your avatar picture, that denotes a certain "standard" of living, does it not?

No it does not.

It's a metaphor. Do you even know what a metaphor is?

All he knows is that he hates Jews because it comes with the territory

I'm surprised he limited himself to the indirect "standard of living" statement instead of the usual "rich Jew" canard.

Maybe it is because I called him on the manipulative Jew canard that he tried to be more subtle this time around. Perhaps he has been taking lessons from his fellow antisemite here .

 

[Coyote]

'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews

'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town

Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back

Yep not obsessed at all...
Good girl, thank You for proving my point.

You cracked really fast.
Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.

Oh my goodness. Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater? Really? Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it. So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?

But did You show that?
Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?

A questionable source?

Do you label every article that shows a different view point from yours biased?

I'm not talking about a "point of view",
but actually a source that was judged to pay damages in several cases for spreading incitement, bigotry and outright lies under the guise of journalistic reporting.

Just this week their chief editor knowingly published a false report about Olive trees,
only to be exposed as blatant forgery:

Gideon Levy's fake olive trees in Haaretz ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

I'm open to discuss anything, and do enjoy that very much,
but don't talk to me about integrity when linking to that garbage.

Your source is a pro Israel blog. Why would it be any more believable than Haaretz? I went to the original article. It notes at the bottom of the article a correction: The caption of the main photograph accompanying this article originally misidentified the tree as an olive tree.

So the photo was wrong, that does not mean the entire article was wrong or Haaretz is bad. At least they don’t try to cover up or excuse settler violence on Palestinians.

 

[ESay]

I don't think You understand the term Theocracy.
Orthodox parties having a majority in the Knesset doesn't mean they get to forcefully impose anything against the will of the nation. Neither Jewish Law a dogmatic body, but a dynamic discussion that evolves around the situation at the time, and as I've said part of its principles is that one cannot impose that which the nation is incapable to follow or accept, even if Torah prescribes that. Nor does it mean there's a single superior authority in that equation, or that Jewish Law itself, in any current form has more authority than what a big community, or person received as traditional practice.

For example, if most scholars rule that on a specific fast day there's not to be any work done,
while Your grandma was taught to clean the house on that day - all the scholars can do is find a rationale for that in the Jewish Law - heritage is of higher authority than religious rule.

If the nation elects them, it can vote them out the same way. What You're probably imagining when saying "theocracy" is closer to the rule that was in Israel when Moses A"H was the authority, and that too wasn't a single man's rule rather a system of courts representing each tribe, as if say each state in the US had equal representation and a president who's decision was needed only when the lower courts had no ruling.

Your framing of the question in terms of theocracy is irrelevant, because prophets are neither elected, nor the orthodox parties pertain to be one's. That's about where their rule ends and real theocracy starts, no one can choose that and no one can make that a reality other than G-d Himself.

Same goes with the Sanhedrion, it's a different equation of reality altogether that no orthodox party is capable of fulfilling.

As for transport on Shabbat, it may be a surprise but many who demand it stops for the day are simple people not belonging to any orthodox party, who simply prefer some quiet once in a week without any religious reasoning. We've had demonstration in most secular communities of Holon, Givataim, Ramat Gan etc - Tel Aviv area demanding just that. While on the other hand the orthodox parties look for ways to indirectly allow that in places of greater demand, so that they can find middle ground and function as a government on issues they see more important. They don't force it through law, but simply by boycotting companies en mass as consumers.

In Jerusalem for example, if You go by bus or tram, You'll see both mixed situations, and separation, where men are at the front and women at the back volunterally - it depends solely on the public using the transport at the time. No one will force You out if You don't apply by their standard - simply won't sit near You and go to another part of the bus.

'Sinful' city buses stoned by ultra-Orthodox Jews

'Only room for men': Driver denied Israeli woman entry on bus to ultra-Orthodox town

Ultra-Orthodox protesters shatter bus windows after female passenger refuses to sit in back

And that exists considering they are a minority overall. Also, I have seen several videos where Orthodoxes block the roads demanding some things. The most interesting part is that the Orthodox communities live virtually at the expense of the Isrseli society. Only 50 percent of their men have a job and this even is considered a high number comparing with the past.

Btw, I have asked several times about Hasids on this forum. But the Jews here aren't willing to discuss them. I wonder why. Sometimes silence speaks much more than any words.

Why, I actually wanted to address that later after the holiday, my best friend is actually a Hossid,
but You guys can just keep the smear festival among Yourselves, seem to enjoy it...
so maybe I simply shouldn't interrupt?

Anyway forgive my bad manners, I'll still interrupt that circle of joy with some reality check - more than 50% officially employed , many are owners of leading world startups, talking silicon valley stuff.

Other's write Torah scrolls, which most of us probably can't afford, teach, write books or whatever.
These guys usually have 6-14 kids, so I think they actually work harder than most of us "machos".
My Hossid friend served in Lebanon and drives a truck for 12 hours a day...

So thank You for the concern, but no thanks.

Sorry, man, didn't want to offend anyone. Thanks for input.

No smearing intended, btw. Just trying of a little education for myself.

I will later write about what I meant trying to compare 'true followers' of some religions.

Yeah, sorry don't take it personally.
It's just that much of the media is spreading vulgar lies about the community,
I get defensive and spiky by default, but myself realize it's not an easy subject to swallow, and sift through all the typical bs being usually told. People don't realize even the tip of the amount of kindness and warmth they give without one even asking for...
Just love 'em from the bottom of the heart.

Be well, later.

Well, after reading this your answer and the previous one, I realized that the comparison won't be fair. I wanted to compare Hasidic community with a Christian Evangelical one.

I know that Evangelicals in the US have dubious reputation, but where I live I think they are true Christians, unlike Catholics and Orthodox. They are peaceful, hardworking, honest and demand nothing from the state. And I thought that the Hasids are the opposite of this. But it is not that simple it seems.

 

[Vagabond63]

Oh, right. As you are the only one who leapt to such a conclusion, you make it very clear to all that's how your mind works, projecting your own vile prejudices onto others.

There was no leap, filth.

You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.

Once again, a stirling display of projecting your own ignorance and prejudice onto others, you must really get off on wallowing in "filth" of your own making, sad.

Oh, BTW, if Islam ever takes over in the UK, mine will be amongst the first "heads to roll", not a fan of any monotheistic religious dogma, my dogmaphile friend.

Your canard about the sneaky Jew manipulating others to fight each other is right out of the Nazi playbook.

Really? I suspect you have a far better knowledge of the "Nazi playbook" than I ever will.

Trump and Republicans are ginning up fake anti-Semitism for political gain. Don't buy it.

How the Right Has Tried to Rebrand Anti-Semitism

There has been no re-branding.

Your themes of the puppet master Jew manipulating others to war against each other are as old as the hills.

I see you have another confirmed antisemite in your corner, but no matter how you Nazis squirm and deflect, you are still indulging in Nazi rhetoric.

Projecting again, your desperation to deflect is self evident, but I just can't be bothered to respond. Here's a link that demonstrates my views better than I can, from the editor of the Forward no less. Speech before the Los Angeles World Affairs Council on January 10

 

[Vagabond63]

Eastern Europe seems to be turning towards more authoritarianism and an erosion of liberties. I dont see how that is a good thing. They flooded Western European countries with people in search of better jobs when EU membership opened borders.

Deterioration of Religious Freedom in Eastern Europe | CAP Freedom of Conscience

In Europe, religious minorities face mounting hostility, harassment - Religion News Service

Membership of the EU is dragging these countries to a better standard of living. That is why they are all so keen to join.There is zero chance that they will throw that away.

What does a "standard of living" even mean?

Just look at your avatar picture, that denotes a certain "standard" of living, does it not?

No it does not.

It's a metaphor. Do you even know what a metaphor is?

Yes.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

There was no leap, filth.

You indulged in classic antisemitism when you stated that it was Jews manipulating your fellow Muslims to fight each other.

Once again, a stirling display of projecting your own ignorance and prejudice onto others, you must really get off on wallowing in "filth" of your own making, sad.

Oh, BTW, if Islam ever takes over in the UK, mine will be amongst the first "heads to roll", not a fan of any monotheistic religious dogma, my dogmaphile friend.

Your canard about the sneaky Jew manipulating others to fight each other is right out of the Nazi playbook.

Really? I suspect you have a far better knowledge of the "Nazi playbook" than I ever will.

Trump and Republicans are ginning up fake anti-Semitism for political gain. Don't buy it.

How the Right Has Tried to Rebrand Anti-Semitism

There has been no re-branding.

Your themes of the puppet master Jew manipulating others to war against each other are as old as the hills.

I see you have another confirmed antisemite in your corner, but no matter how you Nazis squirm and deflect, you are still indulging in Nazi rhetoric.

Projecting again, your desperation to deflect is self evident, but I just can't be bothered to respond. Here's a link that demonstrates my views better than I can, from the editor of the Forward no less. Speech before the Los Angeles World Affairs Council on January 10

Yes. You are an antisemitic piece of excrement dealing in all the classic canards.


I already knew that.

 

[rylah]

Yep not obsessed at all...
Good girl, thank You for proving my point.

You cracked really fast.
Just scratch a bit and the Jew-hater eventually shows his face.
You're no exception, though I've seen smarter antisemites play that game better.

Oh my goodness. Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater? Really? Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it. So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?

But did You show that?
Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?

A questionable source?

Do you label every article that shows a different view point from yours biased?

I'm not talking about a "point of view",
but actually a source that was judged to pay damages in several cases for spreading incitement, bigotry and outright lies under the guise of journalistic reporting.

Just this week their chief editor knowingly published a false report about Olive trees,
only to be exposed as blatant forgery:

Gideon Levy's fake olive trees in Haaretz ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

I'm open to discuss anything, and do enjoy that very much,
but don't talk to me about integrity when linking to that garbage.

Your source is a pro Israel blog. Why would it be any more believable than Haaretz? I went to the original article. It notes at the bottom of the article a correction: The caption of the main photograph accompanying this article originally misidentified the tree as an olive tree.

So the photo was wrong, that does not mean the entire article was wrong or Haaretz is bad. At least they don’t try to cover up or excuse settler violence on Palestinians.

One cannot be "a bit pregnant".
First You've just confirmed exactly what my source reported.
and the lack of reliability of Yours.

Btw this also shows the intellectual level of their target audience, and their relationship with facts.
Take Your time...

 

[Coyote]

Oh my goodness. Showing your statement about the ultra orthodox attitudes towards gender segregation on buses to be a LIE makes one a Jew hater? Really? Because Jews in Israel who are not ultra orthodox also have issues with it. So let me guess...if one were to discuss gender segregation in Muslim mosques (which is also a truth) ... would you call person a Muslim hater?

But did You show that?
Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?

A questionable source?

Do you label every article that shows a different view point from yours biased?

I'm not talking about a "point of view",
but actually a source that was judged to pay damages in several cases for spreading incitement, bigotry and outright lies under the guise of journalistic reporting.

Just this week their chief editor knowingly published a false report about Olive trees,
only to be exposed as blatant forgery:

Gideon Levy's fake olive trees in Haaretz ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

I'm open to discuss anything, and do enjoy that very much,
but don't talk to me about integrity when linking to that garbage.

Your source is a pro Israel blog. Why would it be any more believable than Haaretz? I went to the original article. It notes at the bottom of the article a correction: The caption of the main photograph accompanying this article originally misidentified the tree as an olive tree.

So the photo was wrong, that does not mean the entire article was wrong or Haaretz is bad. At least they don’t try to cover up or excuse settler violence on Palestinians.

One cannot be "a bit pregnant".
First You've just confirmed exactly what my source reported.
and the lack of reliability of Yours.

Btw this also shows the intellectual level of their target audience, and their relationship with facts.
Take Your time...

The confirmation is that the photo used was wrongly identified. No reputable news source is correct 100% of the time. In my view what is important is if they issue a correction and the correction did not state that olive were not cut down.

Do you apply the same standard to all sources?

 

[rylah]

But did You show that?
Or just picked a handful of biased reports that smear a whole community from a questionable source?

A questionable source?

Do you label every article that shows a different view point from yours biased?

I'm not talking about a "point of view",
but actually a source that was judged to pay damages in several cases for spreading incitement, bigotry and outright lies under the guise of journalistic reporting.

Just this week their chief editor knowingly published a false report about Olive trees,
only to be exposed as blatant forgery:

Gideon Levy's fake olive trees in Haaretz ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

I'm open to discuss anything, and do enjoy that very much,
but don't talk to me about integrity when linking to that garbage.

Your source is a pro Israel blog. Why would it be any more believable than Haaretz? I went to the original article. It notes at the bottom of the article a correction: The caption of the main photograph accompanying this article originally misidentified the tree as an olive tree.

So the photo was wrong, that does not mean the entire article was wrong or Haaretz is bad. At least they don’t try to cover up or excuse settler violence on Palestinians.

One cannot be "a bit pregnant".
First You've just confirmed exactly what my source reported.
and the lack of reliability of Yours.

Btw this also shows the intellectual level of their target audience, and their relationship with facts.
Take Your time...

The confirmation is that the photo used was wrongly identified. No reputable news source is correct 100% of the time. In my view what is important is if they issue a correction and the correction did not state that olive were not cut down.

Do you apply the same standard to all sources?

Can't be "a little bit pregnant".
And as I've said, unfortunately this is more a rule than an exception.
That's why they're condemned even by their own political camp.

Just shows You how much reliable is the source.