Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West.

[rylah]

Let’s look at what you say about the Hassid. You are upset and angry at any criticism towards them, even if legitimate. Every group has it’s positives and negatives and every group has good people and bad people. The problem is people tend to try to define them by their bad people when convenient or to push an agenda. Pointing out a reality, that there are some problems with Hassid is not saying they are bad, it is being honest.

Gender segregation. We are highly critical of it in Muslim communities. But we can’t be critical of it in Hasidic communities? Even though it does cause tensions and inequality? It doesn’t mean they are bad people, or that They aren’t also warm and generous. Palestinian Muslims also segregated women in worship, and are very unequal in their treatment of women. They also have a reputation for warm and generous hospitality. But that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical about their treatment of women and also recognize there are many good people in that community as well.

Well this is common tactic among the Jew haters,
to first slander, conflate and deflect when lacking evidence and caught red handed showing their bold lying, then to call it "valid criticism" and pose as 'silenced victims' redirecting all the blame on the target of their slander.

Your response was to my statement regarding segregation in public transport, which was to post news articles about 2 exceptional court cases dealing with public transport in a period spanning a decade, which ruled against gender segregation, and conflate them with a case of a concert organized by and for the Orthodox community, where men and women would've been segregated, eventually closed because neither the artists could perform nor their audience could visit the concert, after a Feminist organization petitioned to deny them these conditions.

None of that proves there's segregation in public transport. And instead of confirming that, which is evident for anyone with 2 brain sells who can read, You've proceeded to suggesting it was otherwise, in spite of Your own proof showing the opposite, and conflating it with the situation of women in Muslim societies.

Now put that aside, my position is at least consistent - I don't see anything wrong with when either Muslims or Jews, or anyone else segregate during worship. It seems most natural to me, because I realize the practical and spiritual reasons for it, and why this should be respected, as much as I don't think I should force anyone else to practice the same.

For me pluralism is extended not only to people of my peer group, but to those who think otherwise as well, like Feminists and Progressives, who unfortunately seem to think, and behave as if it's a tool to force everyone else without exceptions to abide by their standards.

But hey, You can call me primitive, though I just think I've reached a certain point of maturity, where I'm confident enough in my beliefs and my ability to argue for their validity, not to abuse others for merely thinking and preferring to live otherwise.

 

[Coyote]

No. I am not. I wrote my response while your post was still up because it was rather shocking, then you deleted it.

So where is it?
Why did You delete Your original response since then, documenting this abuse of position?
Just shows lack of one's confidence in one's skills to debate on equal terms.

Dirty tricks, manipulation and abuse of privilege is all You have.

I did not delete it. Is deleting your post after it has been seen and some one is responding to it debating on equal terms? Then accusing them of abuse because you then deleted it? Seriously?

So where is Your original response quoted in my post?
Gone, since I've pointed how it reveals Your manipulation and abuse of
privilege.

I am not sure where you mean now, do you mean here in this thread or the other?

You've brought it up, and now playing dumb, how original.
What a determination , that I'll give You.

Though pity it's used to troll, rather than debate in any cultured constructive manner.

No I am saying exactly what I mean - we are jumping around different threads. I'm taking this up via pm rather than derailing further.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Well this is common tactic among the Jew haters,
to first slander, conflate and deflect when lacking evidence and caught red handed showing their bold lying, then to call it "valid criticism" and pose as 'silenced victims' redirecting all the blame on the target of their slander.

Another common tactic is one used by her fellow antisemite with which she agrees. When indulging in all the time-tested antisemitic canards about Jewish manipulation, Jewish secrecy, Jewish control, undue Jewish power and Jewish perfidy in general, just find some sort of statement by a Jewish extremist that offers any of the same themes and then use that as evidence that doing so means they aren't an antisemite. It is actually evidence that they KNOW they are an antisemite and are simply resorting to a ruse, but they are too stupid to realize others are not taken in by their dishonesty.

Heck, I am waiting for a reference to Israel Shahak at any minute...….

 

[Coyote]

Let’s look at what you say about the Hassid. You are upset and angry at any criticism towards them, even if legitimate. Every group has it’s positives and negatives and every group has good people and bad people. The problem is people tend to try to define them by their bad people when convenient or to push an agenda. Pointing out a reality, that there are some problems with Hassid is not saying they are bad, it is being honest.


Gender segregation. We are highly critical of it in Muslim communities. But we can’t be critical of it in Hasidic communities? Even though it does cause tensions and inequality? It doesn’t mean they are bad people, or that They aren’t also warm and generous. Palestinian Muslims also segregated women in worship, and are very unequal in their treatment of women. They also have a reputation for warm and generous hospitality. But that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical about their treatment of women and also recognize there are many good people in that community as well.

Well this is common tactic among the Jew haters,

to first slander, conflate and deflect when lacking evidence and caught red handed showing their bold lying, then to call it "valid criticism" and pose as 'silenced victims' redirecting all the blame on the target of their slander.

Do you realize what you are saying? You essentially saying that if anyone criticizes and aspect of Jewish faith/religion/sects – they are anti-semitic. That is what you are saying.


Jewish people are no different than Christian people, Muslim people, Hindu people etc. You have sects that are very liberal in how they follow their faith and sects that are very conservative in how they follow their faith. We are allowed to criticize Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism for the way women are treated but we are not allowed to criticize Jews? Really? Do you apply those same standards to other faiths?


The fact is – conservative sects of multiple faiths place women in a very subordinate and dependent position. They tend to be insular and strict on a woman’s status, dress code and behavior. Arranged marriages are not uncommon and marrying outside the group, or not following the community mandates tends to lead to ostrization. The insular nature of these communities makes it easy to commit and hide domestic abuse. It doesn’t really matter what the exact faith is. Your automatic defense of the Hassidic communitee ignores the fact that it’s not all sweetness and light in regards to women. But we dare not speak of it right?

Your response was to my statement regarding segregation in public transport, which was to post news articles about 2 exceptional court cases dealing with public transport in a period spanning a decade, which ruled against gender segregation, and conflate them with a case of a concert organized by and for the Orthodox community, where men and women would've been segregated, eventually closed because neither the artists could perform nor their audience could visit the concert, after a Feminist organization petitioned to deny them these conditions.


None of that proves there's segregation in public transport. And instead of confirming that, which is evident for anyone with 2 brain sells who can read, You've proceeded to suggesting it was otherwise, in spite of Your own proof showing the opposite, and conflating it with the situation of women in Muslim societies.

So you ignore it when members of that Haredi community commit violence or intimidate women from riding where they wish on the bus? Or planes? I agree that there is no government-mandated segregation, in fact I never claimed that - yet it does occur in certain areas as does intimidation of women not adhering to the desired dress code. Is this ok?


There are other cases of this sort of intimidation towards women.

2014 Israeli airline urged to stop ‘bullying’ of women by ultra-orthodox passengers

2019 Women of Wall forced to move service amid ‘violent’ ultra-Orthodox protest

2017 https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ec4260-8115-11e7-9e7a-20fa8d7a0db6_story.html

2019 (an opinion piece) https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...y-should-sit-in-the-back-of-the-bus-1.7681266


A simple search shows there is a good deal of controversy between women and women’s rights and the Haredi community. It also shows that this community has an outsized political voice that impacts people outside their community and attempts to force their views and norms on others. When that occurs it is problematic.

Now put that aside, my position is at least consistent - I don't see anything wrong with when either Muslims or Jews, or anyone else segregate during worship. It seems most natural to me, because I realize the practical and spiritual reasons for it, and why this should be respected, as much as I don't think I should force anyone else to practice the same.

I actually agree with you. Within a sect, it’s up to its adherents to determine how they wish to worship as long as actual abuse does not occur (and I don’t consider gender segregation within a faith to be abuse as long as people are voluntarily within the faith and choosing this life style). I also agree it should be respected.

For me pluralism is extended not only to people of my peer group, but to those who think otherwise as well, like Feminists and Progressives, who unfortunately seem to think, and behave as if it's a tool to force everyone else without exceptions to abide by their standards.

I agree. Pluralism means a tolerance of other ways of thinking and living, and yes – progressives, feminists and athiests are just as intolerant as those they claim to criticize. The key is – no one has a right to impose their beliefs on another (within certain basic parameters of human rights and law).

But hey, You can call me primitive, though I just think I've reached a certain point of maturity, where I'm confident enough in my beliefs and my ability to argue for their validity, not to abuse others for merely thinking and preferring to live otherwise.

But hey. I haven’t called you primitive. And if other people CHOOSE to live a certain way, it’s their right. I have no argument there as long as it’s applied equally across the board and basic human rights are not violated (such as the education of girls, domestic abuse, honor killings, forced marriages and child marriages).

 

[Vagabond63]

... You are an antisemitic piece of excrement...
.

Projecting still I see, no real surprise there, don't forget your tikki light, sieg heil Dogamaphile.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Isn't it nice how we have a thread about the differences between Eastern and Western European countries in regards to the preservation of their culture in reaction to the forced Islamization being dictated by Brussels and now we are talking about Jews, instead?

Antisemites are nothing, if not consistant.

 

[Auld Phart]

What a website, Eh?

One of the MODERATOTRS thinks it is funny that she has helped steer a thread about the difference between Eastern and Western European attitudes towards the Islamization of their counties into an anti-Semitic hate fest.

Most sites want people to stay on topic. This one likes to rub people's noses in the fact they are successful in undermining threads with their ethnic hatred and radical Islamist agendas.

One of the MODERATORS thinks it is funny

no, a board poster did.

Moderators type in red.

and get pissed when you attack moderators in open forum.

if you have a problem with a moderator, PM them.

 

[rylah]

Do you realize what you are saying? You essentially saying that if anyone criticizes and aspect of Jewish faith/religion/sects – they are anti-semitic. That is what you are saying.

Wow!
Except that I didn't say that.
Maybe if Your goal was not abuse and slander, there wasn't this need to constantly manipulate the conversation. Instead of actually responding to what I've said, You simply proceed to the vulgar antisemitic canards (the likes of "but I have Jewish friends"), further blaming the victim for merely pointing to Your obsessive abuse.

What would Jew haters do without reserving to all these banal straw man fallacies?

 

[rylah]

Jewish people are no different than Christian people, Muslim people, Hindu people etc. You have sects that are very liberal in how they follow their faith and sects that are very conservative in how they follow their faith. We are allowed to criticize Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism for the way women are treated but we are not allowed to criticize Jews? Really? Do you apply those same standards to other faiths?

The fact is – conservative sects of multiple faiths place women in a very subordinate and dependent position. They tend to be insular and strict on a woman’s status, dress code and behavior. Arranged marriages are not uncommon and marrying outside the group, or not following the community mandates tends to lead to ostrization. The insular nature of these communities makes it easy to commit and hide domestic abuse. It doesn’t really matter what the exact faith is. Your automatic defense of the Hassidic communitee ignores the fact that it’s not all sweetness and light in regards to women. But we dare not speak of it right?

Except that it none sense, they ARE different, and it DOES matter what society is examined.

This attempt to conflate the situation of dominating Christian, Islamic, Hindu majorities and their treatment of women, to that in the Jewish community, is further slander of a minority where abuse of women is rather an exception than norm, and merely an attempt to downplay vividly catastrophic proportions of their abuse in Islamic societies.

I find it ironically revealing that You constantly jump with the "but,but,but...Jews and Christians" excuses, whenever there's a thread about Islam in the forum, but when suggested to condemn the Women's March organizers who publicly incite to violence against rape victims for criticizing Islam - You boldly refuse, reserving to lame excuses.

This has nothing to do with "conservative vs liberal", that just none sense.
There's simply a specific society that stands at the top of the misogyny list in the world , leading by a HUGE margin - and we all know who they are, whose behavior You constantly defend while pretending to ride some moral high horse.

After being exposed to what they've been and still do to their women home, while experiencing first hand the mass rape all around the European continent, it's just too late for You folks, no one buys into these lame manipulations anymore.

And proportionately - the more desperate the attempt to deceive the victim about the apparently evident situation, eventually the harsher gonna be the natural defense response.

When all that pressure releases, it's not gonna be pretty at all.

 

[rylah]

So you ignore it when members of that Haredi community commit violence or intimidate women from riding where they wish on the bus? Or planes? I agree that there is no government-mandated segregation, in fact I never claimed that - yet it does occur in certain areas as does intimidation of women not adhering to the desired dress code. Is this ok?


There are other cases of this sort of intimidation towards women.

2014 Israeli airline urged to stop ‘bullying’ of women by ultra-orthodox passengers

2019 Women of Wall forced to move service amid ‘violent’ ultra-Orthodox protest

2017 https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ec4260-8115-11e7-9e7a-20fa8d7a0db6_story.html

2019 (an opinion piece) Israel's new Iron Lady wants women to sit in the back of the bus. She should be the first | Opinion


A simple search shows there is a good deal of controversy between women and women’s rights and the Haredi community. It also shows that this community has an outsized political voice that impacts people outside their community and attempts to force their views and norms on others. When that occurs it is problematic.

I ignored nothing, quiet the opposite I've addressed each case in detail.

That You keep trying to conflate them with feminist subversion, cases of murder perpetrated by mentally disturbed people, and ridiculous opinion pieces from biased sources - only reveals Your desperation to grasp at straws and utter obsession with a minority.

 

[rylah]

What a website, Eh?

One of the MODERATOTRS thinks it is funny that she has helped steer a thread about the difference between Eastern and Western European attitudes towards the Islamization of their counties into an anti-Semitic hate fest.

Most sites want people to stay on topic. This one likes to rub people's noses in the fact they are successful in undermining threads with their ethnic hatred and radical Islamist agendas.

One of the MODERATORS thinks it is funny

no, a board poster did.

Moderators type in red.

and get pissed when you attack moderators in open forum.

if you have a problem with a moderator, PM them.

Are You suggesting rape victims a 'secure hotline' to their abusers??
That's original.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Are You suggesting rape victims a 'secure hotline' to their abusers??
That's original.

 

[rylah]

You attacked my family. You attacked me in your FIRST post to me, name calling. And you continued. You get upset when I responded back in kind. Why? It doesn’t matter what I post.

You keep repeating this ad nauseam but present no evidence.
This can mean only two things:

Either
1. You're attempting to further abuse and silence me as a response for merely pointing to Your use of fowl language and immature behavior - for which one would be convicted for slander in court of law.

Or
2. Your family members include Linda "take their vaginas away" Sarsour,
which would explain a lot, and confirm the agenda that has been long ago apparent

So which one is it?

 

[rylah]

Well this is common tactic among the Jew haters,
to first slander, conflate and deflect when lacking evidence and caught red handed showing their bold lying, then to call it "valid criticism" and pose as 'silenced victims' redirecting all the blame on the target of their slander.

Another common tactic is one used by her fellow antisemite with which she agrees. When indulging in all the time-tested antisemitic canards about Jewish manipulation, Jewish secrecy, Jewish control, undue Jewish power and Jewish perfidy in general, just find some sort of statement by a Jewish extremist that offers any of the same themes and then use that as evidence that doing so means they aren't an antisemite. It is actually evidence that they KNOW they are an antisemite and are simply resorting to a ruse, but they are too stupid to realize others are not taken in by their dishonesty.

Heck, I am waiting for a reference to Israel Shahak at any minute...….

To the letter,
while looking for the most vulgar way to smother and get away with,
smugness comes as an added value.

 

[Coyote]

Jewish people are no different than Christian people, Muslim people, Hindu people etc. You have sects that are very liberal in how they follow their faith and sects that are very conservative in how they follow their faith. We are allowed to criticize Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism for the way women are treated but we are not allowed to criticize Jews? Really? Do you apply those same standards to other faiths?

The fact is – conservative sects of multiple faiths place women in a very subordinate and dependent position. They tend to be insular and strict on a woman’s status, dress code and behavior. Arranged marriages are not uncommon and marrying outside the group, or not following the community mandates tends to lead to ostrization. The insular nature of these communities makes it easy to commit and hide domestic abuse. It doesn’t really matter what the exact faith is. Your automatic defense of the Hassidic communitee ignores the fact that it’s not all sweetness and light in regards to women. But we dare not speak of it right?

Except that it none sense, they ARE different, and it DOES matter what society is examined.

This attempt to conflate the situation of dominating Christian, Islamic, Hindu majorities and their treatment of women, to that in the Jewish community, is further slander of a minority where abuse of women is rather an exception than norm, and merely an attempt to downplay vividly catastrophic proportions of their abuse in Islamic societies.

I find it ironically revealing that You constantly jump with the "but,but,but...Jews and Christians" excuses, whenever there's a thread about Islam in the forum, but when suggested to condemn the Women's March organizers who publicly incite to violence against rape victims for criticizing Islam - You boldly refuse, reserving to lame excuses.

This has nothing to do with "conservative vs liberal", that just none sense.
There's simply a specific society that stands at the top of the misogyny list in the world , leading by a HUGE margin - and we all know who they are, whose behavior You constantly defend while pretending to ride some moral high horse.

After being exposed to what they've been and still do to their women home, while experiencing first hand the mass rape all around the European continent, it's just too late for You folks, no one buys into these lame manipulations anymore.

And proportionately - the more desperate the attempt to deceive the victim about the apparently evident situation, eventually the harsher gonna be the natural defense response.

When all that pressure releases, it's not gonna be pretty at all.

Thank for finally clarifying the canards you hypocritically choose to cling to. This says much about what you believe, the demonizing disinformation you are willing to support and the lack of a truly inquisitive mind that asks “what is the agenda behind this” before spreading your own brand of hate. You have toppled off your high horse and landed in the very cess you criticize others for.

Many cultures treat women badly, and at the core of many religions are ancient cultural attitudes that regarded women as little more than property including sects within your own. One does not have to be a religious scholar to recognize this or understand history. At the same time, it is wrong to try to demonize an entire world faith by the actions and beliefs of some of the sects within it or cultures it is spread across. You accuse me and others of doing it to your faith but look at your own words and your own attitude, an attitude that regards the biblical territory of Israel to be home only to the Jews, and non-Jews would have a “guest” status, regardless of whether or not they have been there for centuries or more. Sounds like dhimmi to me, an idea that belongs in the past not the present and certainly not the future.

Hatred is hatred, and the more you try to legitimize it, defend it, the more it begins to resemble that of those you criticize.

As to the comment regarding family, I have no idea what Sarsour has to do with anything. My uncle however, was funny, smart, kind, intelligent and Jewish. There is no need to draw him in to your attacks.

That is all I will say on this and to you.

 

[rylah]

Jewish people are no different than Christian people, Muslim people, Hindu people etc. You have sects that are very liberal in how they follow their faith and sects that are very conservative in how they follow their faith. We are allowed to criticize Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism for the way women are treated but we are not allowed to criticize Jews? Really? Do you apply those same standards to other faiths?

The fact is – conservative sects of multiple faiths place women in a very subordinate and dependent position. They tend to be insular and strict on a woman’s status, dress code and behavior. Arranged marriages are not uncommon and marrying outside the group, or not following the community mandates tends to lead to ostrization. The insular nature of these communities makes it easy to commit and hide domestic abuse. It doesn’t really matter what the exact faith is. Your automatic defense of the Hassidic communitee ignores the fact that it’s not all sweetness and light in regards to women. But we dare not speak of it right?

Except that it none sense, they ARE different, and it DOES matter what society is examined.

This attempt to conflate the situation of dominating Christian, Islamic, Hindu majorities and their treatment of women, to that in the Jewish community, is further slander of a minority where abuse of women is rather an exception than norm, and merely an attempt to downplay vividly catastrophic proportions of their abuse in Islamic societies.

I find it ironically revealing that You constantly jump with the "but,but,but...Jews and Christians" excuses, whenever there's a thread about Islam in the forum, but when suggested to condemn the Women's March organizers who publicly incite to violence against rape victims for criticizing Islam - You boldly refuse, reserving to lame excuses.

This has nothing to do with "conservative vs liberal", that just none sense.
There's simply a specific society that stands at the top of the misogyny list in the world , leading by a HUGE margin - and we all know who they are, whose behavior You constantly defend while pretending to ride some moral high horse.

After being exposed to what they've been and still do to their women home, while experiencing first hand the mass rape all around the European continent, it's just too late for You folks, no one buys into these lame manipulations anymore.

And proportionately - the more desperate the attempt to deceive the victim about the apparently evident situation, eventually the harsher gonna be the natural defense response.

When all that pressure releases, it's not gonna be pretty at all.

Thank for finally clarifying the canards you hypocritically choose to cling to. This says much about what you believe, the demonizing disinformation you are willing to support and the lack of a truly inquisitive mind that asks “what is the agenda behind this” before spreading your own brand of hate. You have toppled off your high horse and landed in the very cess you criticize others for.

Many cultures treat women badly, and at the core of many religions are ancient cultural attitudes that regarded women as little more than property including sects within your own. One does not have to be a religious scholar to recognize this or understand history. At the same time, it is wrong to try to demonize an entire world faith by the actions and beliefs of some of the sects within it or cultures it is spread across. You accuse me and others of doing it to your faith but look at your own words and your own attitude, an attitude that regards the biblical territory of Israel to be home only to the Jews, and non-Jews would have a “guest” status, regardless of whether or not they have been there for centuries or more. Sounds like dhimmi to me, an idea that belongs in the past not the present and certainly not the future.

Hatred is hatred, and the more you try to legitimize it, defend it, the more it begins to resemble that of those you criticize.

As to the comment regarding family, I have no idea what Sarsour has to do with anything. My uncle however, was funny, smart, kind, intelligent and Jewish. There is no need to draw him in to your attacks.

That is all I will say on this and to you.

You're the one who suggested several times to establish Caliphates in my country,
and I'm the hateful among us??

Just face it, not only is this personal Jihad of Yours apparent to all who have witnessed Your evident obsessive abuse and experienced it firsthand, but even the mods don't buy into this none sense diarrhea anymore.

Boy is Your virtue signaling pathetic... but keep digging.

 

[Auld Phart]

What a website, Eh?

One of the MODERATOTRS thinks it is funny that she has helped steer a thread about the difference between Eastern and Western European attitudes towards the Islamization of their counties into an anti-Semitic hate fest.

Most sites want people to stay on topic. This one likes to rub people's noses in the fact they are successful in undermining threads with their ethnic hatred and radical Islamist agendas.

One of the MODERATORS thinks it is funny

no, a board poster did.

Moderators type in red.

and get pissed when you attack moderators in open forum.

if you have a problem with a moderator, PM them.

Are You suggesting rape victims a 'secure hotline' to their abusers??
That's original.

I'm suggesting following board rules.

"No Discussing infractions, bans, banned members, or specific moderator actions or duties on the open boards. Issues with moderation should be taken up privately with moderators in PM"

 

[rylah]

The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.

In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.

Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.

Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.

Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West

Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'



Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.

In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.

Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.

Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.

Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West

Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'



Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.

My experience of Eastern European nations is that they are not well disposed to minority groups. Most likely due to the period they were behind the iron curtain and isolated. Apart from that I dont see them as different to western nations.

Latvia and Ireland are similar sizes and they have their own distinct cultures. History, food, language, literature, customs and so on.

 

[rylah]

The rift between Western and Central Europe runs deep. It is the result of different definitions of what the EU is and what it should be.

In 2006 I joined official meetings in Warsaw between the Belgian prime minister and the two Kaczyński brothers. The first meeting was with Lech Kaczyński, then president of Poland, who died in a plane crash in 2010; the second was with Jarosław Kaczyński, then prime minister of Poland, who is still the leader of the ruling Law and Justice Party (or PiS) today. I remember well how both the Belgian and the Polish delegations did not seem to understand each other. On the Belgian side, we were surprised to hear how much the Kascyńskis were rambling on about the Russian and the German dangers. The Polish side, on the other hand, didn’t understand why we Belgians were pleading for more European integration, once again.

Today, some twelve years later, this perhaps personal misunderstanding has transformed into an open rift between Western and Eastern (or Central) Europe. This divide was made abundantly clear in the European Parliament in September, when many Eastern European parties voted against sanctioning the Hungarian government, led by Viktor Orbán, for rule-of-law breaches. Many Western Europeans couldn’t understand this support for what Orbán himself calls “illiberal democracy.” At the same time, many Eastern Europeans considered the sanctions unhelpful and certainly one step too far.

Where does this mutual misunderstanding come from? Some would argue it is the result of Europe’s so-called refugee crisis of 2015, when Western European countries tried to push all EU member states to accept and integrate a percentage of the refugees. The refusal by the East frustrated the West. But I believe that the EU’s East-West rift is much older and more fundamental. It is the result of different histories and different views of what Europe is or should be. In other words, Eastern and Western Europe don’t share the same political psychology.

Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West

Reflections on 'Sapiens' & 'The Strange Death of Europe'



Even though it sounds somewhat oversimplified, I think this might be the main difference.
One may not like certain things about eastern Europe, its spirit, consider those nations somewhat less evolved, less "shiny", or for personal reasons, namely belonging to specific minority, more hostile. But without involving this natural emotional reaction, seems to me, they're more straightforward and in touch with their roots, which is a thing I can respect, and are of essential importance to cultural survival in this day and age.

My experience of Eastern European nations is that they are not well disposed to minority groups. Most likely due to the period they were behind the iron curtain and isolated. Apart from that I dont see them as different to western nations.

Latvia and Ireland are similar sizes and they have their own distinct cultures. History, food, language, literature, customs and so on.

My point was less about the evident cultural distinctions, or lack of them, neither about relation to minorities as whole. Rather their connection to roots and what seems to be a natural leaning towards seeing religion as a sacred aspect they will hold close to their national heart, so to speak.
And this being an advantage the west lacks for eventual cultural and physical survival in the circumstance Europe, but not only, finds itself in these days and foreseeable future.