David and Bathsheba's baby- was God's punishment just?

[koshergrl]

Well that is a conundrum of course...but what Christians believe is that all lives are precious, all lives have meaning, and it is not left to us to decide who goes to heaven, and who has to wait out their time on earth. Each life works its way in God's plan...God's plan for David was what it was, and his punishment was to take his child (and not just that one, either). But he also had plans for each of those children, and the timing of their deaths worked perfectly within those plans.

The complexities of God and his plan are fascinating, beautiful, and provide believers a source of neverending wonder...but ultimately it comes down to just you, one person, and God. We can never fathom completely what his plan for others is, because it's all about controlling one's self, and answering to God and God alone...and allowing others to do the same. Then it follows that you surrender and there is joy n that surrender, and the gift of being able to turn every sorrow and fear over to God, and allowing him to work out the kinks in his own way.

That's a heartfelt response. I hope you can appreciate it as such.

 

[Photonic]

Well that is a conundrum of course...but what Christians believe is that all lives are precious, all lives have meaning, and it is not left to us to decide who goes to heaven, and who has to wait out their time on earth. Each life works its way in God's plan...God's plan for David was what it was, and his punishment was to take his child (and not just that one, either). But he also had plans for each of those children, and the timing of their deaths worked perfectly within those plans.

The complexities of God and his plan are fascinating, beautiful, and provide believers a source of neverending wonder...but ultimately it comes down to just you, one person, and God. We can never fathom completely what his plan for others is, because it's all about controlling one's self, and answering to God and God alone...and allowing others to do the same. Then it follows that you surrender and there is joy n that surrender, and the gift of being able to turn every sorrow and fear over to God, and allowing him to work out the kinks in his own way.

That's a heartfelt response. I hope you can appreciate it as such.

I think the idea of hell is the real problem here. Infinite punishment for what can only be defined as a finite crime, by someone who is supposed to have infinite love.

I've heard the idea of purgatory being the punishment, where you must wait to enter depending on the severity of your judgement.

I think that would fit in more, but if God has infinite love, would his forgiveness not extend to literally everyone even after death?

That is why I believe that if there is a deity of some kind, he would either not be unlimited in his power, or everything we supposedly would understand about It is completely wack.

 

[koshergrl]

God can't be righteous or just if he can abide with sin and refuses to punish it. He provided his own son to die for our sins, so that all we have to do is believe, and we will reap the reward of heaven.

It's not such a huge request, and he paid a huge price to help us get to heaven. But ultimately, we will be accountable for the choices we make. And to despise the sacrifice of Christ, and to spurn God after he is revealed to us, are two sins that won't be forgiven. Heaven won't be heaven if the devil and his supporters live there.

 

[Photonic]

God can't be righteous or just if he can abide with sin and refuses to punish it. He provided his own son to die for our sons, so that all we have to do is believe, and we will reap the reward of heaven.

It's not such a huge request, and he paid a huge price to help us get to heaven. But ultimately, we will be accountable for the choices we make. And to despise the sacrifice of Christ, and to spurn God after he is revealed to us, are two sins that won't be forgiven. Heaven won't be heaven if the devil and his supporters live there.

I think the very idea of hell only exists for those who believe in it (as far as the Christian God is concerned).

After all, Jesus himself said you will only be measured by that which you use to measure others.

 

[koshergrl]

No, he didn't say you would ONLY pay for your judgement of others. He said as you judge, you shall be judged.

We will be judged for our sins, and we will pay for them, all of them. Those who are particularly harsh in their judgement of others will receive equally harsh judgement. But that does not mean that is the only determining factor in your judgement. Believe me, if you are an idolator who is the nicest person on the block, who forgives the murderer of his child, who gives to every charity on the block, you will not access heaven. When Christ referred to us being judged as we judge others, he was talking to BELIEVERS only. Because for non-believers, the punishment is all the same.

 

[Photonic]

No, he didn't say you would ONLY pay for your judgement of others. He said as you judge, you shall be judged.

We will be judged for our sins, and we will pay for them, all of them. Those who are particularly harsh in their judgement of others will receive equally harsh judgement. But that does not mean that is the only determining factor in your judgement. Believe me, if you are an idolator who is the nicest person on the block, who forgives the murderer of his child, who gives to every charity on the block, you will not access heaven. When Christ referred to us being judged as we judge others, he was talking to BELIEVERS only. Because for non-believers, the punishment is all the same.

That is the measure by which you will be judged. Have fun in hell.

There is so much in the Bible you have probably already violated just by existing.

For instance

"But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence" Timothy 2:12 KJV

 

[koshergrl]

What a waste of time it has been talking to you.

 

[Photonic]

What a waste of time it has been talking to you.

Yea, it certainly sucks when you have knowledge of your own religion.

 

[JoeB131]

I have no answer for this. Other then maybe he wanted to humble them both for what they did. Losing a child is very harsh on anyone. He also preserved the last annointed King of Israel.

It humbled David and made him a better King.

But it say's God will judge the ignorant, meaning the ones who never had a chance to know him.

I believe all children who have passed early in life will be given that chance to know him in the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

A couple of problems with this theory.

First, it didn't make David a "better King". It probably made him a worse one.

A quick rundown of 2 Samel after this event-

His son Amnon rapes his daughter Tamar. He does nothing.

Absolom murders Amnon. He does nothing.

Absolom overthrows David and the country devolves into Civil War. It eventually ends when Joab (one of the few bible characters I like) kills Absolom before David can pardon him again.

He let's Saul's Family be dismembered.

Some giants get killed.

David sings a song of victory and then directs Solomon to whack everyone who opposed him like Michael Coreleon at the end of the Godfather.

Actually, it made David MORE of a jerk.

 

[JoeB131]

And we won't know why the baby had to die. But i'm sure it ended up being with God and never knew what happened! Just as all innocent Children go to God when they die (even Saul's grandchildren). We don't always know the reasons God decides to do something. Could you imagine what it would be like if NOBODY ever died before they were at a certain age? There's a reason it happens, someday we'll know why.

You know, a nun said something like that to me at my mom's funeral. This psychotic old frustrated lesbian had the nerve to give me this "God has a reason" BS at my mom's funeral.

My only regret is I didn't slam her head into a wall. Just for laughs.

That's a threat. Reported, scum.

For someone who died 20 years ago?

 

[JoeB131]

God can't be righteous or just if he can abide with sin and refuses to punish it. He provided his own son to die for our sins, so that all we have to do is believe, and we will reap the reward of heaven.

It's not such a huge request, and he paid a huge price to help us get to heaven. But ultimately, we will be accountable for the choices we make. And to despise the sacrifice of Christ, and to spurn God after he is revealed to us, are two sins that won't be forgiven. Heaven won't be heaven if the devil and his supporters live there.

Again, the Baby didn't do anything wrong.

Punish David, absolutely. Bathsheba, maybe give her some wiggle room, because it wasn't like she could refuse a command from her king. (Although she turns out to be pretty manipulative later in the bible). So maybe punish her..

But the Baby. It didn't do anything wrong.

 

[JoeB131]

What a waste of time it has been talking to you.

Yea, it certainly sucks when you have knowledge of your own religion.

Kosherghoul is pretty ignorant of her own bible....

And why she needs to turn every thread she's on into a discussion on abortion... Well, a shrink would have a field day with that one.

 

[Cecilie1200]

2 Samuel 11 and 12

A story the nuns like to bowlderize when I was a kid, because the actual verses are just so awful.

Short version- David sees Bathsheba bathing, and calls for her to have some wild sex. But she is married to his loyal officer Uriah the Hittite. After his attempts to get Uriah to do the nasty with her fail, he arranges for him to be sent into battle in such a way that he be killed, so he can have Bathsheba for himself.

Well, God is none to happy about this, and puts a curse on David. His baby will die, and his son will rise up against him.

So I guess the question is, like a lot of the other stories where God kills children, was this a just punishment? Does it really comform to the Christian notion of a "loving" God?

What you are forgetting is that God is a just God as well and hands down punishment for sin. David was appointed King over Gods people and he misused his auithority. The messiah was gonna come through the line of David. God was not gonna allow the line of david to be defiled.

God saved david by punishing him and bethsheba. That was their sacrifice for their sin. Since the coming of and death of the messiah God no longer has to hand down punishment at this time.

King david knew he was wrong and took his punishment and was not bitter towards God for the punishment handed down. Was david mad at God probably but in time david knew it was a just punishment.

How is that fair to the baby?

You're assuming that life on Earth is wonderful, and death is horrible.

 

[Cecilie1200]

What you are forgetting is that God is a just God as well and hands down punishment for sin. David was appointed King over Gods people and he misused his auithority. The messiah was gonna come through the line of David. God was not gonna allow the line of david to be defiled.

God saved david by punishing him and bethsheba. That was their sacrifice for their sin. Since the coming of and death of the messiah God no longer has to hand down punishment at this time.

King david knew he was wrong and took his punishment and was not bitter towards God for the punishment handed down. Was david mad at God probably but in time david knew it was a just punishment.

Again, not seeing why the baby needed to die.

Let's forget, this is the same God that let David hand over Saul's grandchildren for mass murder, that killed 70,000 Israelites because David took a census, that the second part of the Urriah episode was that Absolom rose up in rebellion, plunging the country into civil war.

Yahweh is a barbaric God for a barbaric people.

Depends on your view of death. For Christians, death is not something to fear, it is for those left behind to mourn, but not fear. The baby, therefore, did not 'suffer'. It is only those who don't believe who see the baby's death as a bad thing for the baby.

I also have to wonder if God actually "made" the baby die and Absalom to be rebellious, or if He was simply predicting that those two things would be the result of David's actions, and the writers interpreted it that way. The Bible doesn't say much about HOW the baby died, does it?

 

[Cecilie1200]

How is that fair to the baby?

You think earth is a better place than heaven?

Well I don't think heaven exists.

But if heaven does exist, and God is putting the baby in a better place, how would that be punishment to the parents? The parents could be happy their baby is in a better place and have another child.

Rest assured, none of that paragraph is what I think.

What does what YOU think about Heaven have to do with the story or the question?

And if you really have to ask how parents can suffer when their child dies, regardless of what they believe happens after death, you're even more piss-stupid than I thought you were.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The abortion issue is always a good deflection for God's crimes in the Bible.

If you believe a fetus is a baby at all times during the pregnancy, and heaven is better than earth, abortions are a good thing right?

What if the baby is born and becomes some heathen infidel non-believer like the vast majority of babies and ends up in hell? That'd be infinitely worse right?

Murder by abortion is NOT the same thing....God didn't plan that abortion, the mother did!

But an abortion insures the fetus/baby will go to heaven right? If the baby is born and like the overwhelming majority of babies grows into something besides a christian as an adult it'll go to hell, correct?

I do so love fools who think, "If God can do it, it's okay for me to do it". Hey, Brain Trust. God's going to take you to the Great Beyond someday. Does that make it okay if I send you there early? Use your head for something besides keeping your ears apart, Idiot.

 

[Photonic]

Murder by abortion is NOT the same thing....God didn't plan that abortion, the mother did!

But an abortion insures the fetus/baby will go to heaven right? If the baby is born and like the overwhelming majority of babies grows into something besides a christian as an adult it'll go to hell, correct?

I do so love fools who think, "If God can do it, it's okay for me to do it". Hey, Brain Trust. God's going to take you to the Great Beyond someday. Does that make it okay if I send you there early? Use your head for something besides keeping your ears apart, Idiot.

If everything happens for a reason, than a baby being aborted was in Gods plan.

Or are you saying God isn't actually all powerful and all knowing?

 

[koshergrl]

It's in God's plan. God plans on specific people making specific, sinful choices.
It doesn't mean they aren't sinful or evil. He plans on Satan doing the things that Satan does. But that doesn't mean that Satan doesn't have a choice.

 

[JoeB131]

It's in God's plan. God plans on specific people making specific, sinful choices.
It doesn't mean they aren't sinful or evil. He plans on Satan doing the things that Satan does. But that doesn't mean that Satan doesn't have a choice.

whole bunch of problems with this.

First, if God has a "plan", and none of us, not even poor Old Scratch, haven't got a choice in the matter, then how can any of us be held accountable for our part in God's plan. If God planned for me to be an atheist who mocks the pure stupidity of religion, he can't really hold me to account for it, can he.

Second, if God has a "plan", what's the point of going to church and praying for stuff? I mean, God has a plan. So we should all just be going along with that plan and not praying for stuff like a raise or for Mom's Cancer to get better.

Neither of which make a plan where a baby dies because his parents made a mistake moral, good, just or worthy.

(Geez, Bible Thumpers are so silly.)

 

[strollingbones]

God gave His only Begotten Son to pay the price of sin and because of Him, that child who died, will rise from the dead.

Is that just?

no but it s a tale told by men

what god seeks the death of new borns for the sins of the father