atheist and christmas

[froggy]

Once again I do appologise for claiming that MOST Christians try to force their beleifs that was entirely without merit and a provocative statement.

When someone says they will pray for me I am not insulted but when someone wants to try to convert me after I tell them I am not interested I become a bit annoyed. If I want to find God I can find a Church or my in-laws would be happy to help me know the word and will of God I just don't beleive in a God or Gods not just Christian but ANY of them........I would most likely be Pagan if I HAD to choose. I just get REALLY upset when people try to get the BIBLE in PUBLIC schools, probably the same who are trying to get books BANNED from school libraries.

I have appreciated the interchange actually, and it is really pleasant to debate somebody who is actually trying to be reasonable. Apology accepted with acknowledgment that we sometimes all exaggerate for effect in an enthusiastic debate, and too often use body language and nuances in our writing that is intended to modify our words but, alas, is not apparent to our reader.

I am just as annoyed as you when others try to 'convert me' after I have explained that I do not wish to convert. However, a Bible on the public school shelves is not something to be feared or banned any more than a copy of the Quran, Marx's Communist Manifesto, and Hitler's Mein Kampf. Access to all religious literature that has profoundly factored into human history and that has shaped entire cultures belongs in the public school as much as any literature does.

No school personnel should be promoting or speaking against any religion, including Atheism, in the public schools. But to eliminate all religious references from all curriculum is not only a lie given the strong role that religion has played in history and culture, but there is no way to give the kids any kind of well rounded education without including that in the mix. And to deny school kids ability to sing great religious Christmas music such as Handel's "Messiah" is to foster a cultural and historical void that makes no sense to me.

So it will depend on what you mean by "getting the Bible into public schools". If you mean replacing the study of Darwin's theory with creationism, I would agree. If you mean allowing the teacher to dismiss Intelligent Design as one of the great theories of how all this has transpired, I would disagree. I.D. can't be taught as science, of course, but it should be acknowledged.

But that's just me.

darwins theroy is as dumb as they come. A deformed fish grows an arm,has an offspring that has fingers and an arm , and so on, and so on, till it can crawl out of the sea and become a human. Boy what idiots people were then.

 

[Foxfyre]

Once again I do appologise for claiming that MOST Christians try to force their beleifs that was entirely without merit and a provocative statement.

When someone says they will pray for me I am not insulted but when someone wants to try to convert me after I tell them I am not interested I become a bit annoyed. If I want to find God I can find a Church or my in-laws would be happy to help me know the word and will of God I just don't beleive in a God or Gods not just Christian but ANY of them........I would most likely be Pagan if I HAD to choose. I just get REALLY upset when people try to get the BIBLE in PUBLIC schools, probably the same who are trying to get books BANNED from school libraries.

I have appreciated the interchange actually, and it is really pleasant to debate somebody who is actually trying to be reasonable. Apology accepted with acknowledgment that we sometimes all exaggerate for effect in an enthusiastic debate, and too often use body language and nuances in our writing that is intended to modify our words but, alas, is not apparent to our reader.

I am just as annoyed as you when others try to 'convert me' after I have explained that I do not wish to convert. However, a Bible on the public school shelves is not something to be feared or banned any more than a copy of the Quran, Marx's Communist Manifesto, and Hitler's Mein Kampf. Access to all religious literature that has profoundly factored into human history and that has shaped entire cultures belongs in the public school as much as any literature does.

No school personnel should be promoting or speaking against any religion, including Atheism, in the public schools. But to eliminate all religious references from all curriculum is not only a lie given the strong role that religion has played in history and culture, but there is no way to give the kids any kind of well rounded education without including that in the mix. And to deny school kids ability to sing great religious Christmas music such as Handel's "Messiah" is to foster a cultural and historical void that makes no sense to me.

So it will depend on what you mean by "getting the Bible into public schools". If you mean replacing the study of Darwin's theory with creationism, I would agree. If you mean allowing the teacher to dismiss Intelligent Design as one of the great theories of how all this has transpired, I would disagree. I.D. can't be taught as science, of course, but it should be acknowledged.

But that's just me.

darwins theroy is as dumb as they come. A deformed fish grows an arm,has an offspring that has fingers and an arm , and so on, and so on, till it can crawl out of the sea and become a human. Boy what idiots people were then.

Actually I don't have a problem with Darwin's theory and I think all students should have a thorough understanding of it along with all other scientific principles. I just have a problem with presuming or teaching that it is the only theory worth considering, or that it represents all the science there is to know on that subject or that there is nothing real other than science. I believe God is the author of science and is much bigger than the tiny fraction that we know of science when compared to all the science there is yet to know. But my belief is a matter of faith and not science. Science only should be taught as science in science class, but any science teacher worth his salt knows that there is infinitely more to life and the universe than that which can be explained with science and s/he will adivse his/her students that there is much that we do not know and much left for them to discover.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't know how to quote single paragraphs but your last sentence makes sense. I KNOW my dreams of world peace and prosperity for everyone will never happen but I tried to do my SMALL part the other day. As I came out of Lowes I put my last three bucks I had on me into the Salvation Army (yeah I know a Christian group) and at my car a little old lady was trying to load some things into her car. Most were small and she got them into her trunk just fine but there was a good sized mirror and I knew she would NOT be able to get it into her car. I loaded it into the back of her car all the while amazed that a Lowes employee didn't offer to help her. I hope she had help to get it OUT of her car. It felt good even though it was such a simple thing to do. If we could just HELP EACH OTHER when the opportunity presents itself our world would be SO MUCH BETTER with so little effort. Simple things we can do every day although I have to admit countless missed opportunities I have let go by but I pledge try harder to help where and when I can. I will try harder to SEEK OUT people I can help...........Hard time with panhandlers cause I just don't trust that I am not feeding an addiction.

You are: the addiction to having someone else take care of you, rather than putting out the effort to take care of yourself.

When I give to charities, I seek out the ones that either help those who cannot help themselves (animals, sick children, medical research) or that specialize in not just giving money to the needy, but in helping the needy learn the skills to eventually take care of themselves.

By the way, shameless plug: I discovered a charity the other day about which I am very interested in learning more. It's called Heifer International, and it puts its money into buying cows for third world villages and teaching them farming and cow breeding and care techniques so that they can become self-sufficient and self-feeding. Check it out.

VERY cool Idea. There is one group that gives "Micro-loans" to people in third world countries who for a $100 investment can start small businesses and provide jobs and money for the community.


As far as the ancient books and documents that were burnt I hink UNTOLD knowledge was lost and for no other reason than it did not fit in with there beleifs. We can NEVER know what was lost. Not just the Library at Alexandria but untold other examples of books and documents burned.......It litterally pains me to think about what humanity LOST during those dark times.

Did not fit with WHOSE beliefs?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Once again I do appologise for claiming that MOST Christians try to force their beleifs that was entirely without merit and a provocative statement.

When someone says they will pray for me I am not insulted but when someone wants to try to convert me after I tell them I am not interested I become a bit annoyed. If I want to find God I can find a Church or my in-laws would be happy to help me know the word and will of God I just don't beleive in a God or Gods not just Christian but ANY of them........I would most likely be Pagan if I HAD to choose. I just get REALLY upset when people try to get the BIBLE in PUBLIC schools, probably the same who are trying to get books BANNED from school libraries.

Apology accepted. I'm glad to talk to someone who wants to be reasonable and perhaps really accomplish something with debate and discussion.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Once again I do appologise for claiming that MOST Christians try to force their beleifs that was entirely without merit and a provocative statement.

When someone says they will pray for me I am not insulted but when someone wants to try to convert me after I tell them I am not interested I become a bit annoyed. If I want to find God I can find a Church or my in-laws would be happy to help me know the word and will of God I just don't beleive in a God or Gods not just Christian but ANY of them........I would most likely be Pagan if I HAD to choose. I just get REALLY upset when people try to get the BIBLE in PUBLIC schools, probably the same who are trying to get books BANNED from school libraries.

I have appreciated the interchange actually, and it is really pleasant to debate somebody who is actually trying to be reasonable. Apology accepted with acknowledgment that we sometimes all exaggerate for effect in an enthusiastic debate, and too often use body language and nuances in our writing that is intended to modify our words but, alas, is not apparent to our reader.

I am just as annoyed as you when others try to 'convert me' after I have explained that I do not wish to convert. However, a Bible on the public school shelves is not something to be feared or banned any more than a copy of the Quran, Marx's Communist Manifesto, and Hitler's Mein Kampf. Access to all religious literature that has profoundly factored into human history and that has shaped entire cultures belongs in the public school as much as any literature does.

No school personnel should be promoting or speaking against any religion, including Atheism, in the public schools. But to eliminate all religious references from all curriculum is not only a lie given the strong role that religion has played in history and culture, but there is no way to give the kids any kind of well rounded education without including that in the mix. And to deny school kids ability to sing great religious Christmas music such as Handel's "Messiah" is to foster a cultural and historical void that makes no sense to me.

So it will depend on what you mean by "getting the Bible into public schools". If you mean replacing the study of Darwin's theory with creationism, I would agree. If you mean allowing the teacher to dismiss Intelligent Design as one of the great theories of how all this has transpired, I would disagree. I.D. can't be taught as science, of course, but it should be acknowledged.

But that's just me.

For the record, I don't get annoyed when someone tries to convert me, unless they're rude about it. I appreciate that they're concerned about me and are putting themselves to some effort - because bringing something like that up and risking rejection, often very hostile rejection, IS a bit of an effort for most people - to try to help me. Now, if they're nasty and confrontational about it, or won't take no for an answer, THEN I'm annoyed, and they're likely to go away with blistered eardrums.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Once again I do appologise for claiming that MOST Christians try to force their beleifs that was entirely without merit and a provocative statement.

When someone says they will pray for me I am not insulted but when someone wants to try to convert me after I tell them I am not interested I become a bit annoyed. If I want to find God I can find a Church or my in-laws would be happy to help me know the word and will of God I just don't beleive in a God or Gods not just Christian but ANY of them........I would most likely be Pagan if I HAD to choose. I just get REALLY upset when people try to get the BIBLE in PUBLIC schools, probably the same who are trying to get books BANNED from school libraries.

I have appreciated the interchange actually, and it is really pleasant to debate somebody who is actually trying to be reasonable. Apology accepted with acknowledgment that we sometimes all exaggerate for effect in an enthusiastic debate, and too often use body language and nuances in our writing that is intended to modify our words but, alas, is not apparent to our reader.

I am just as annoyed as you when others try to 'convert me' after I have explained that I do not wish to convert. However, a Bible on the public school shelves is not something to be feared or banned any more than a copy of the Quran, Marx's Communist Manifesto, and Hitler's Mein Kampf. Access to all religious literature that has profoundly factored into human history and that has shaped entire cultures belongs in the public school as much as any literature does.

No school personnel should be promoting or speaking against any religion, including Atheism, in the public schools. But to eliminate all religious references from all curriculum is not only a lie given the strong role that religion has played in history and culture, but there is no way to give the kids any kind of well rounded education without including that in the mix. And to deny school kids ability to sing great religious Christmas music such as Handel's "Messiah" is to foster a cultural and historical void that makes no sense to me.

So it will depend on what you mean by "getting the Bible into public schools". If you mean replacing the study of Darwin's theory with creationism, I would agree. If you mean allowing the teacher to dismiss Intelligent Design as one of the great theories of how all this has transpired, I would disagree. I.D. can't be taught as science, of course, but it should be acknowledged.

But that's just me.

The prob is that the people of whom I speak want the BIBLE in our schools but I think would be OUTRAGED should a copy of the Koran happened to find it's way into the K section.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

You are: the addiction to having someone else take care of you, rather than putting out the effort to take care of yourself.

When I give to charities, I seek out the ones that either help those who cannot help themselves (animals, sick children, medical research) or that specialize in not just giving money to the needy, but in helping the needy learn the skills to eventually take care of themselves.

By the way, shameless plug: I discovered a charity the other day about which I am very interested in learning more. It's called Heifer International, and it puts its money into buying cows for third world villages and teaching them farming and cow breeding and care techniques so that they can become self-sufficient and self-feeding. Check it out.

VERY cool Idea. There is one group that gives "Micro-loans" to people in third world countries who for a $100 investment can start small businesses and provide jobs and money for the community.


As far as the ancient books and documents that were burnt I hink UNTOLD knowledge was lost and for no other reason than it did not fit in with there beleifs. We can NEVER know what was lost. Not just the Library at Alexandria but untold other examples of books and documents burned.......It litterally pains me to think about what humanity LOST during those dark times.

Did not fit with WHOSE beliefs?

Thems who was doin the burnin.

 

[Foxfyre]

The prob is that the people of whom I speak want the BIBLE in our schools but I think would be OUTRAGED should a copy of the Koran happened to find it's way into the K section.

There are some who would, but they would be a very small majority. Probably as small as the minority radicals who would protest putting books on the shelves extolling and applauding the traditional American mom, pop, and kids family along with "Heather Has Two Mommies". Honorable people should resist that kind of social engineering prejudice. Because good people did not resist small vocal minorities who demanded that the word "Christmas" be eradicated from the public schools and the school children could no longer sing the great works of Bach, Handel, Mendelsohn, generations of children are no denied much history, culture, and artistry that should be included in the curriculum.

Somewhere good people have to stand up and say enough is enough. We should demand that judges be appointed who evaluate the law rather than ideology, and we should pass laws requiring that all our history, culture, and heritage be taught without prejudice as determined by local school boards. If some small pushy group demands special dispensation that their belief and understanding be the only belief and understanding allowed in the schools, we must resist that. But we should not then go to the other extreme and forbid other history, culture, experience, and thought.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

The prob is that the people of whom I speak want the BIBLE in our schools but I think would be OUTRAGED should a copy of the Koran happened to find it's way into the K section.

There are some who would, but they would be a very small majority. Probably as small as the minority radicals who would protest putting books on the shelves extolling and applauding the traditional American mom, pop, and kids family along with "Heather Has Two Mommies". Honorable people should resist that kind of social engineering prejudice. Because good people did not resist small vocal minorities who demanded that the word "Christmas" be eradicated from the public schools and the school children could no longer sing the great works of Bach, Handel, Mendelsohn, generations of children are no denied much history, culture, and artistry that should be included in the curriculum.

Somewhere good people have to stand up and say enough is enough. We should demand that judges be appointed who evaluate the law rather than ideology, and we should pass laws requiring that all our history, culture, and heritage be taught without prejudice as determined by local school boards. If some small pushy group demands special dispensation that their belief and understanding be the only belief and understanding allowed in the schools, we must resist that. But we should not then go to the other extreme and forbid other history, culture, experience, and thought.

I think we agree more or less about INFORMATION being the issue of paramount importance, however I think we disagee upon the type of info. I just can't get past religious books in a PUBLIC school, I don't understand people who say they don't want "Sex-ED" or "Morals" taught in school but want religious texts in schools. It seems SO contradictory. I fear that if we gave EVERY religion equall time and space in our schools we would have VERY little time for anything OTHER than compare/contrast of the worlds religions. I have NO IDEA how many CURRENT religions there are but I suspect it is in the THOUSANDS and if we are TRUE to the Constitution to not give preference to ANY ONE religion over another then I see NOTHING but problems with putting the Bible or ANY other religious text in our PUBLICALLY funded schools.

If you are a religious man and you have a family wouldn't you READ to them maybe a chapter from the Bible once a night after dinner? I would think that would STRENGTHEN there understanding of the Bible, provide a wholesome bit of time with nothing but you reading to your children and expressing your values, and strengthen THEIR understanding and values based upon YOUR expression of FAITH. Why would you want ANYONE else other than your priest to provide insight to such an INTENSLEY personal beleife system?

 

[JW Frogen]

The prob is that the people of whom I speak want the BIBLE in our schools but I think would be OUTRAGED should a copy of the Koran happened to find it's way into the K section.

I say put any book in American public schools, few of those students can read them anyway.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

By the way to the two of you who I appologised to it was NOT a hard thing to do because I DID exagerate and generalise based on a very vocal minority in a VERY conservative state......idaho. Appologies are SO easy to give yet are given in such disturbingly rare instances that it makes me think people do not understand the POWER of a freely and honestly given appology. Sad VERY sad!

 

[noose4]

what do they tell their children of santa claus and why they're celebrating christmas.

You do know Santa Claus is just fantasy?

 

[Foxfyre]

By the way to the two of you who I appologised to it was NOT a hard thing to do because I DID exagerate and generalise based on a very vocal minority in a VERY conservative state......idaho. Appologies are SO easy to give yet are given in such disturbingly rare instances that it makes me think people do not understand the POWER of a freely and honestly given appology. Sad VERY sad!

Well kudos to you for thinking it was not a hard thing to do. In my experience it is a very rare thing and it elevated you considerably on my respect meter. I only hope that I can find equal graciousness to do the same when I will almost certainly generalize and exaggerate again as I have in the past.

But please don't misunderstand me. Except in a very objective and non-'partisan' comparative religions class, I don't want ANY religion taught and I want no religion officially promoted in the public schools. But as I think I've said previously, neither do I want non-religion or Atheism taught or promoted in the schools or the religion of the children forbidden or denigrated in any way. In other words the kids are there to learn about all the different things to know in the world which would include religious history, culture, and influence, but they are are not there to be indoctrinated in any religion or social philosophy or ideology or cause.

In science class, for instance, I think it is fine for the science teacher to explain to the students that Intelligent Design and/or Creationism is a theory believed or promoted by hundreds of millions or billions of people on earth; however, as there is no way to address it scientifically, it will not be part of the science curriculum. That way he or she in no way attacking or diminishing the students' faith, but also is not incorporating inappropriate subject matter into the curriculum.

And as far as putting books in the school library, the Bible belongs there along with the Quran and all such books that have shaped history, culture, borders, and language around the world. I personally think there should be no books that intentionally indoctrinate on any subject unless of a highly generic quality. A book of apologetics on the Christian faith should not be there unless part of a whole collection of various religious beliefs. Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" should be there. A book on "How to Win Friends for Christ" should not. A good librarian will be able to distinguish between what is and is not appropriate.

 

[JW Frogen]

[
You do know Santa Claus is just fantasy?

Thanks a lot asshole.

Now my Christmas is fucked.

Who am I going to get drunk with on the roof now on Christmas Eve?

 

[noose4]

[
You do know Santa Claus is just fantasy?

Thanks a lot asshole.

Now my Christmas is fucked.

Who am I going to get drunk with on the roof now on Christmas Eve?

This guy!!!!

 

[Cecilie1200]

VERY cool Idea. There is one group that gives "Micro-loans" to people in third world countries who for a $100 investment can start small businesses and provide jobs and money for the community.


As far as the ancient books and documents that were burnt I hink UNTOLD knowledge was lost and for no other reason than it did not fit in with there beleifs. We can NEVER know what was lost. Not just the Library at Alexandria but untold other examples of books and documents burned.......It litterally pains me to think about what humanity LOST during those dark times.

Did not fit with WHOSE beliefs?

Thems who was doin the burnin.

Actually, whether the burning involved anyone's beliefs depends one who did the burning. Many people consider Julius Caesar to have been the culprit, in which case it was an accident. In some of the stories involving other groups, it was also an accident.

 

[amrchaos]

what do they tell their children of santa claus and why they're celebrating christmas.

We are aping the believers because, son, we Atheists possess no cool religious traditions and Christmas seems like fun.

 

[Cecilie1200]

By the way to the two of you who I appologised to it was NOT a hard thing to do because I DID exagerate and generalise based on a very vocal minority in a VERY conservative state......idaho. Appologies are SO easy to give yet are given in such disturbingly rare instances that it makes me think people do not understand the POWER of a freely and honestly given appology. Sad VERY sad!

You're not wrong. I was noticing just the other day that people simply do not know how to give an apology anymore. They generally want to apologize in such a way as to say that THEY were in no way at fault, the problem was YOU simply not understanding, and they are sorry that you just don't "get" them. The ability to just say, "I screwed up, and I regret it" is virtually lost.

 

[mightypeon]

I am still a Single, but I would imagine the following scene in my Christmas Family

Me: "So, today we celebrate "Christmas", the vengeance of the cruelly opressed Saxon Pagans that were killed by Charlemange, and decided to annoy the Christians by having really cool festivities.
Then the Christians decided that they wanted to have that too, claimed that Christus was bron at the 24. of December. Then the Monks tried to explain brightly trees, giving presents and eating Goose with Christian scriptures, however all of them died from a Brain Aneuryism."

Children: "Why did Charlemange do this?"
Me:"Because having people adhere to a religion that teaches obidience is a good idea when trying to conquer a territory filled with people who think that heroic ways of dying are rewarded!"

Wife Bonks Mightypeons head with a large Frying Pan

Children: "Why did you do that?"

Wife:" Because having husbands who dont tell 6 year olds about genocides is a good idea when trying to raise a family!"

 

[rightwinger]

what do they tell their children of santa claus and why they're celebrating christmas.

We are aping the believers because, son, we Atheists possess no cool religious traditions and Christmas seems like fun.

Thankfully, atheists rescued Christmas from the Christians. Christians took a perfectly fine pagan holiday like the Yule and turned it into a stiff, boring Christian snoozefest

With the coming of Santa Claus, Christmas became a fun holiday