atheist and christmas

[uscitizen]

So tell me when did it become o.k to whore out your religion for political power and money. It seems to me there would be some kind of tenent against using the word of GOD to gain power and filthy riches. If there REALLY is a God he would not care to gather wealth and control he would want to ENLIGHTEN his followers to do good works in His name. INSTEAD he gets the Sistine Chappel and the Crusades. He gets a monument built to HIM while people literally STARVED TO DEATH, HAD NO HOUSING, and DIED OF DISEASE!!! You thing maybe the GOD you pray to and tithe to is nothing more than a sick HOAX to enrich and empower a certain group of people?

Ahh but the Greed is good mantra has caought on in pentecostal types of churches since the rise of televangelists and such.

Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz, my friends all drive Porches....

 

[Cold Fusion38]

So tell me when did it become o.k to whore out your religion for political power and money. It seems to me there would be some kind of tenent against using the word of GOD to gain power and filthy riches. If there REALLY is a God he would not care to gather wealth and control he would want to ENLIGHTEN his followers to do good works in His name. INSTEAD he gets the Sistine Chappel and the Crusades. He gets a monument built to HIM while people literally STARVED TO DEATH, HAD NO HOUSING, and DIED OF DISEASE!!! You thing maybe the GOD you pray to and tithe to is nothing more than a sick HOAX to enrich and empower a certain group of people?

I do not think the "Christians" whored out their holiday. Instead, gift giving may have been a widespread practice long before Jesus Walked the Earth.

The "whores" of Christmas are therefore the merchants that are trying to end the year on a positive economic note. This is the time of year that make or break the "unnecessity" consumer economy. Thus the Ho HO HOing of this religious holiday is by sales people who may or may not be christians.

Attacking the Christians because the holiday is used by capitalists to generate profits is way out of line. You should apologize to them because it is not the believers fault that this has occured. The Christian intentions are noble.

Oh you misunderstand I am talking about every day of the year. You give money and allegience to "GOD" but you are, in fact, giving money and POWER to the Church to use for POLITICAL reasons and to HORDEmassive wealth as the Vatican has. It seems to me that if a church has THAT MUCH MONEY they could find 1001 ways to spend it to benefit all of humanity.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I have a question!!

Where in all of Atheism does it say that an atheists cannot celebrate Christmas or any other holiday on the Calender?

I have yet to see that in my copy of "the Great Holy Book of Atheism"... Has any other Atheism found that.

Nowhere on page one of that esteemed text does it say avoid others religious holidays!! How does it conflict with my religious beliefs.

Tell me!! I want to know what Froggy and the others are talking about. Give Gifts, sing Carols, read Christian stories and walk down the Street yelling "Happy Holidays" and "Merry Christmas" at the top of my lungs. Doing this does not defile my religion!!

As an atheist and a peoson of moral convictions I would NEVER try to take away a day that is important to others, that would be hurtful and I am not into breaking the spirt of GOOD people. My line in the sand is when those people want their Holy Days to be "state sanctioned" as in the PUBLIC square. Churches have SO MUCH property to put up religions displays that I see no reason for placing them on public land.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Was Jesus the only one that was born on Dec. 25th of a Virgin?? Nope.. He wasn't.. In fact christians stole the entire story of Christ from Egypt..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH66MsrmE50

Just like many of the other stories in the bible, all ripped off from other religious texts and stories..

As for Christmas?? It is a cool holiday and an excuse for us to all go shopping.. But it has no religious significance.. It is just a day of giving and a day to spend with family...

Come on christians.. At least come up with something original for your god.. Did you have to rip off from Egypt?

The thing is that most Christians think that there were no real cultures before Christianity. Much as people beleive the CONCEPT of Democracy and freedom BEGAN with our country.

Get it straight people there have been MANY cultures and countries that lasted FAR longer than ours. There are some of the most incredible works of architcture that have stood for THOUSANDS of years. So in the grand scheme pf things we are an INFANT culture and we already show signs of a failing Democratic Republic.

Where in the world do you guys come up with this garbage? There was no December 25th before our current calendar. There is no documentation of any of the story told on that YouTube clip. The shame of it is that you will have people believing it. In the telling of it, you miss the whole truth.

There are NUMEROUS calenders besides and before the Julian calender we use today. Do you think time didn't exist before Christianity. Romans, Greek, Egyptians, Chinese, and the MAYAN had measures of time and date that predate Christianity but didn't apply the terms in moths and days that our current calender utilizes.Does that make them any less valid?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

What nobody claiming TIME began with the birth of Christ?

 

[Foxfyre]

So tell me when did it become o.k to whore out your religion for political power and money. It seems to me there would be some kind of tenent against using the word of GOD to gain power and filthy riches. If there REALLY is a God he would not care to gather wealth and control he would want to ENLIGHTEN his followers to do good works in His name. INSTEAD he gets the Sistine Chappel and the Crusades. He gets a monument built to HIM while people literally STARVED TO DEATH, HAD NO HOUSING, and DIED OF DISEASE!!! You thing maybe the GOD you pray to and tithe to is nothing more than a sick HOAX to enrich and empower a certain group of people?

I do not think the "Christians" whored out their holiday. Instead, gift giving may have been a widespread practice long before Jesus Walked the Earth.

The "whores" of Christmas are therefore the merchants that are trying to end the year on a positive economic note. This is the time of year that make or break the "unnecessity" consumer economy. Thus the Ho HO HOing of this religious holiday is by sales people who may or may not be christians.

Attacking the Christians because the holiday is used by capitalists to generate profits is way out of line. You should apologize to them because it is not the believers fault that this has occured. The Christian intentions are noble.

Oh you misunderstand I am talking about every day of the year. You give money and allegience to "GOD" but you are, in fact, giving money and POWER to the Church to use for POLITICAL reasons and to HORDEmassive wealth as the Vatican has. It seems to me that if a church has THAT MUCH MONEY they could find 1001 ways to spend it to benefit all of humanity.

Well to put things into perspective, please show me several charitable organizations intended to relieve human suffering and provide a bit of hope and encouragement to the poor, destitute, and/or disabled that were founded and operated or are operated by Atheists and/or Atheist organizations.

Then compare those to the ongoing relief efforts to the poorest of the world's poor, the soup kitchens, thrift shops, leper colonies, orphanages, homeless shelters, humanitarian hospitals and missions, rehab centers, etc. that are run by Christians. Among just a few examples, for instance, my own church is involved in hands on work and ministries with the friendless and family-less in nursing homes and hospitals, runs an ongoing program for about 200 otherwise disadvantaged kids, is engaged in ministries to seniors, troubled marriages, those addicted to various substances, the disabled, and relief of those mired in poverty throughout the world.

And then please explain again how giving to the Church is for the Church to use for political reasons or to amass and horde wealth and/or how the non-religious are doing so much more that is beneficial for their fellow humans.

 

[Cecilie1200]

what do they tell their children of santa claus and why they're celebrating christmas.

do you know any atheists that celebrate christmas...christmas started off as a pagan holiday that was co-opted by the religious crowd....neither santa or christmas trees or the concept of giving gifts is of christian origin....

I'm curious. What do you think the origin of Santa Claus is?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I disagree. Most kids want to believe the fantasy. And for most of us who grew up with that "lie", Christmas was never the same after we learned the truth. Let kids be kids for crying out loud. No one hates their parents because of Santa. Sheeez.

Actually, both of my older children have told me they're glad I never tried to convince them Santa was real. They both like knowing that everything I've ever said to them, in any context, has been the truth as far as I know it, and can be trusted as such. This is why they both still come to me for information and advice about everything (and often things I wish they wouldn't). And I haven't noticed any loss on their part from not having the "fantasy". In fact, both of them - 20 and 14 respectively - seem to approach Christmas with the same pleasure and spirit they've always had.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And layer on top of that that you seem like a pretty reasonble and intelligent guy. I'm also wagering that you'll quickly conclude this particular battle isn't worth fighting.

And then you'll be glad you did the first time you see your kid's eyes light up over what Santa Claus brought.

I'm all for Norman Rockwell sentiment, but my parents never did the Santa thing and we were pretty ecstatic with the presents we got. We just knew that Mom & Dad got them for us because they loved us. I like that idea better anyway, than hinging presents upon a mythical person's ability to discern whether we've been good or bad all year and rewarding or punishing us based on that.

But that's just me.

I've always preferred teaching my children that Christmas gift exchanges were about people showing love for each other by spending their own hard-earned money, and going to the effort and thought of choosing exactly the right gift, rather than some impersonal, magical person off at the North Pole. I think it's been good for them, because they've always gotten as much enjoyment out of choosing gifts for people as they do from opening their own.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Atheists believe Christmas is Santas birthday
Christians believe Christmas is Jesus's birthday

Who is closer to the truth?

Actually many religious scholars DON'T beleive Jesus was born on Christmas.

I don't know any religious scholars who believe He WAS born on Christmas. We celebrate it then because we choose to. No one knows for sure when Jesus was born, although it was likely in summer, as I understand it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So tell me when did it become o.k to whore out your religion for political power and money. It seems to me there would be some kind of tenent against using the word of GOD to gain power and filthy riches. If there REALLY is a God he would not care to gather wealth and control he would want to ENLIGHTEN his followers to do good works in His name. INSTEAD he gets the Sistine Chappel and the Crusades. He gets a monument built to HIM while people literally STARVED TO DEATH, HAD NO HOUSING, and DIED OF DISEASE!!! You thing maybe the GOD you pray to and tithe to is nothing more than a sick HOAX to enrich and empower a certain group of people?

Perhaps you should check the Bible to see how God feels about His churches and temples being deliberately shabby affairs. It's not like He doesn't give specific instructions for the building of a temple AND the Ark of the Covenant. Read 'em. After that, please go find a reliable book on the subject of the Crusades, because you clearly don't know Jack about them.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So tell me when did it become o.k to whore out your religion for political power and money. It seems to me there would be some kind of tenent against using the word of GOD to gain power and filthy riches. If there REALLY is a God he would not care to gather wealth and control he would want to ENLIGHTEN his followers to do good works in His name. INSTEAD he gets the Sistine Chappel and the Crusades. He gets a monument built to HIM while people literally STARVED TO DEATH, HAD NO HOUSING, and DIED OF DISEASE!!! You thing maybe the GOD you pray to and tithe to is nothing more than a sick HOAX to enrich and empower a certain group of people?

I do not think the "Christians" whored out their holiday. Instead, gift giving may have been a widespread practice long before Jesus Walked the Earth.

The "whores" of Christmas are therefore the merchants that are trying to end the year on a positive economic note. This is the time of year that make or break the "unnecessity" consumer economy. Thus the Ho HO HOing of this religious holiday is by sales people who may or may not be christians.

Attacking the Christians because the holiday is used by capitalists to generate profits is way out of line. You should apologize to them because it is not the believers fault that this has occured. The Christian intentions are noble.

Oh you misunderstand I am talking about every day of the year. You give money and allegience to "GOD" but you are, in fact, giving money and POWER to the Church to use for POLITICAL reasons and to HORDEmassive wealth as the Vatican has. It seems to me that if a church has THAT MUCH MONEY they could find 1001 ways to spend it to benefit all of humanity.

The Catholic Church DOES find 1001 ways - and more - to benefit humanity. Hie yourself down to your local welfare office and ask them for a list of local charities to which they refer their clients for assistance in everything from housing to baby needs to food and clothes and furniture. I guarantee you at least half of the private charities listed there will be run under the auspices of the Catholic Church. While you're at it, investigate the number of foreign ministries run by the Catholics, giving aid and comfort to people throughout the Third World. You can bitch about their power and wealth all you want, but the fact remains that not many churches do as much to genuinely put their money where their preaching is in terms of charity.

 

[tigerbob]

what do they tell their children of santa claus and why they're celebrating christmas.

Mr Hankey, the Christmas poo.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I do not think the "Christians" whored out their holiday. Instead, gift giving may have been a widespread practice long before Jesus Walked the Earth.

The "whores" of Christmas are therefore the merchants that are trying to end the year on a positive economic note. This is the time of year that make or break the "unnecessity" consumer economy. Thus the Ho HO HOing of this religious holiday is by sales people who may or may not be christians.

Attacking the Christians because the holiday is used by capitalists to generate profits is way out of line. You should apologize to them because it is not the believers fault that this has occured. The Christian intentions are noble.

Oh you misunderstand I am talking about every day of the year. You give money and allegience to "GOD" but you are, in fact, giving money and POWER to the Church to use for POLITICAL reasons and to HORDEmassive wealth as the Vatican has. It seems to me that if a church has THAT MUCH MONEY they could find 1001 ways to spend it to benefit all of humanity.

Well to put things into perspective, please show me several charitable organizations intended to relieve human suffering and provide a bit of hope and encouragement to the poor, destitute, and/or disabled that were founded and operated or are operated by Atheists and/or Atheist organizations.

Then compare those to the ongoing relief efforts to the poorest of the world's poor, the soup kitchens, thrift shops, leper colonies, orphanages, homeless shelters, humanitarian hospitals and missions, rehab centers, etc. that are run by Christians. Among just a few examples, for instance, my own church is involved in hands on work and ministries with the friendless and family-less in nursing homes and hospitals, runs an ongoing program for about 200 otherwise disadvantaged kids, is engaged in ministries to seniors, troubled marriages, those addicted to various substances, the disabled, and relief of those mired in poverty throughout the world.

And then please explain again how giving to the Church is for the Church to use for political reasons or to amass and horde wealth and/or how the non-religious are doing so much more that is beneficial for their fellow humans.

No doubt churches and those who attend them do MASSIVE works of good for people around the world. My in-laws did Habitat for Humanity and helped give someone a HOME it doesn't get much better than that However I feel (and hey it's just my feeling) that when Churches use funds for POLITICAL purposes and the HOARDING that many churches do with MILLIONS like TV evangelists and Mega churches they should no longer be eligable for tax free status as they have now begun to produce a PROFIT. Do you remember Tammy Fay tearfully saying "It's JESUS' ministry" and take ANY of the 800 Club or other TV programs seriously enough to SEND MONEY knowing how these "Preachers" live!!!??? I thought the life of a preacher was supposed to be HUMBLE, why do some many Christians support this kind of lifestyle when people are homeless/can't feed themselves. As an athiest I just find it VERY sad that that type of money could go to the needy. I feel the same way about the Churches themselves.......Would you be able to worship just as well in a mini-mall corner shop as in a MULTI-MILLION $ church with all the bells and whistles? Threre is a VERY nice Morman temple built here in S.W. Idaho, it cost MILLIONS, WHY, for what pupose is the "Temple"? If you are doing Christ's work then do so without the Temples and money given to elect certain politicians.




But you are right I DO owe an apology to the Christians (likely the vast majority) who try to do good works especially during the holidays(although these people need help the rest of the year too.) But doesn't a thing like the VATICAN keeping holy texts and artifacts BURIED and under LOCK and KEY and being a Quasi-Natiion concern you? The Vatican weilds lots of power both overt and covert and no one outside the inner circle knows why.


As an athiest I am kind of a dreamer. I hope against hope that EVERYONE in the world can be cared for, that we wipe out poverty, that we wipe out disease, that clean safe water is available, that everyone gets a NON-Religious education (they can find religion on their own time besides I doubt many here want children taught in Madrases), that everyone has a political voice and is safe to exercise it. IF this were to happen then Terrorism would be COMPLETELY wiped out, terrorism is a tool of the desperate.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Oh you misunderstand I am talking about every day of the year. You give money and allegience to "GOD" but you are, in fact, giving money and POWER to the Church to use for POLITICAL reasons and to HORDEmassive wealth as the Vatican has. It seems to me that if a church has THAT MUCH MONEY they could find 1001 ways to spend it to benefit all of humanity.

Well to put things into perspective, please show me several charitable organizations intended to relieve human suffering and provide a bit of hope and encouragement to the poor, destitute, and/or disabled that were founded and operated or are operated by Atheists and/or Atheist organizations.

Then compare those to the ongoing relief efforts to the poorest of the world's poor, the soup kitchens, thrift shops, leper colonies, orphanages, homeless shelters, humanitarian hospitals and missions, rehab centers, etc. that are run by Christians. Among just a few examples, for instance, my own church is involved in hands on work and ministries with the friendless and family-less in nursing homes and hospitals, runs an ongoing program for about 200 otherwise disadvantaged kids, is engaged in ministries to seniors, troubled marriages, those addicted to various substances, the disabled, and relief of those mired in poverty throughout the world.

And then please explain again how giving to the Church is for the Church to use for political reasons or to amass and horde wealth and/or how the non-religious are doing so much more that is beneficial for their fellow humans.

No doubt churches and those who attend them do MASSIVE works of good for people around the world. My in-laws did Habitat for Humanity and helped give someone a HOME it doesn't get much better than that However I feel (and hey it's just my feeling) that when Churches use funds for POLITICAL purposes and the HOARDING that many churches do with MILLIONS like TV evangelists and Mega churches they should no longer be eligable for tax free status as they have now begun to produce a PROFIT. Do you remember Tammy Fay tearfully saying "It's JESUS' ministry" and take ANY of the 800 Club or other TV programs seriously enough to SEND MONEY knowing how these "Preachers" live!!!??? I thought the life of a preacher was supposed to be HUMBLE, why do some many Christians support this kind of lifestyle when people are homeless/can't feed themselves. As an athiest I just find it VERY sad that that type of money could go to the needy. I feel the same way about the Churches themselves.......Would you be able to worship just as well in a mini-mall corner shop as in a MULTI-MILLION $ church with all the bells and whistles? Threre is a VERY nice Morman temple built here in S.W. Idaho, it cost MILLIONS, WHY, for what pupose is the "Temple"? If you are doing Christ's work then do so without the Temples and money given to elect certain politicians.




But you are right I DO owe an apology to the Christians (likely the vast majority) who try to do good works especially during the holidays(although these people need help the rest of the year too.) But doesn't a thing like the VATICAN keeping holy texts and artifacts BURIED and under LOCK and KEY and being a Quasi-Natiion concern you? The Vatican weilds lots of power both overt and covert and no one outside the inner circle knows why.

SHOULD it bother me that the Vatican, like many collectors of priceless historical objects, keeps them under lock and key? Whether or not I think that, morally and ethically, historical objects should be made accessible to all people as part of our heritage - which I do - I also happen to believe that people have a right to do as they please with their own possessions, and those objects DO belong to the Vatican. Moreover, I am well aware that the Catholic Church is essentially responsible singlehandedly for the preservation of texts and knowledge and learning during the Dark Ages, and do not feel particularly threatened, therefore, by them in the role of caretaker.

Nor do I feel threatened by them having influence in people's lives and thus having political power. Despite the inflamed, hyperbolic claims to the contrary, they have overall been more judicious in their use of that power than any number of secular leaders throughout human history. And given the amount of influence they have over people via their religious beliefs, I think it's rather appropriate for their leadership to be housed separately from the claims of any one nation, much the way Washington DC is separate from any particular state.

As an athiest I am kind of a dreamer. I hope against hope that EVERYONE in the world can be cared for, that we wipe out poverty, that we wipe out disease, that clean safe water is available, that everyone gets a NON-Religious education (they can find religion on their own time besides I doubt many here want children taught in Madrases), that everyone has a political voice and is safe to exercise it. IF this were to happen then Terrorism would be COMPLETELY wiped out, terrorism is a tool of the desperate.

As a Christian, I waste no time hoping for such things, because I know they will never happen. Rather, I spend that time and energy working toward the much smaller, achievable improvements which are actually possible.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Cecile I guess the prob I have with the Vatican is that they keep those documents under LOCK and KEY and don't even allow religious scholars to view them. I think they have documents that contradict their beleifs and refuse to even QUESTION whether they are right or wrong.

Now if you don't CARE about the amount of POWER the Catholic church weilds then too bad for you because when the POPE comes out and demands that YOU change your everyday life I think you will feel different but.....

When they came for the comunists I said nothing I was not a communist.....

When they came for the Jews I said nothing I was not a Jew.....

When they came for me there was no one left to speak out....


The Catholic church is against CONDOMS......Could they be any more INSANE?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

The Vatican still largely exists in the 14th century. They REALLY need to get a little less draconian in their views if they want to keep and attract more followers.

 

[Foxfyre]

Cecile I guess the prob I have with the Vatican is that they keep those documents under LOCK and KEY and don't even allow religious scholars to view them. I think they have documents that contradict their beleifs and refuse to even QUESTION whether they are right or wrong.

Now if you don't CARE about the amount of POWER the Catholic church weilds then too bad for you because when the POPE comes out and demands that YOU change your everyday life I think you will feel different but.....

When they came for the comunists I said nothing I was not a communist.....

When they came for the Jews I said nothing I was not a Jew.....

When they came for me there was no one left to speak out....


The Catholic church is against CONDOMS......Could they be any more INSANE?

What power has the Catholic Church over anybody who does not choose to hand the Church that power? The Vatican/Roman Catholic Church has absolutely zero power over me and unless I move to a country where a state religion is allowed, I can't imagine any religious group having power over me.

We might wish that the 'sacred' artifacts and icons held by the Church were made available to historians, but I have items in my house of historical value that I would highly resent anybody telling me that I was required to make them available for examination, photographs, touching, testing, or whatever. It is my right to choose who I give access to such property, and I allow the Church that same right for property they own.

I strongly disagree with the Roman Catholic's Church stance against condoms and other forms of birth control. I think most American Catholics disagree with the Vatican on that issue. But for me it is no crazier than handing out free condoms to school kids and saying that the practice is not seen by the kids as license and encouragement to go have a lot of sex. I would prefer that vending machines be placed in the restroom along with a large prominant sign advising kids to respect their bodies and warning them that while a condom helps prevent pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases, it is not a guarantee against pregnancy or contracting a sexually transmitted disease.

But when it comes to rules, beliefs, practices, policy, I am one voice and one voice only, and it is not my prerogative to dictate to others what rules, beliefs, practices, and policy they must follow when such does not apply to me.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Hey Fox when Caucasions become the minority you may be living under Catholic doctrine. Just as Christians NOW try to force their views on the rest of us (see abortion) the catholic church may try to say BAN condome sales, or they may BAN divorce........Bad Bad thing for Catholics......I think you need to chop off your wifes head for the church to accept it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Hey Fox when Caucasions become the minority you may be living under Catholic doctrine. Just as Christians NOW try to force their views on the rest of us (see abortion) the catholic church may try to say BAN condome sales, or they may BAN divorce........Bad Bad thing for Catholics......I think you need to chop off your wifes head for the church to accept it.

Anything is possible, but if enough people continue to defend our Constitution and the principles upon which it is founded, the Church will not have the power to ban or demand anything. Surely you aren't suggesting that only caucasions would agree with me on that. But just in case, are you suggesting that all the billion plus Catholics of the world be lined up and shot? Or why don't we just ban all religion outright? Look how well the people used to fare under that policy in China and the U.S.S.R.

I rather prefer to keep laws in place that protect my right to agree or disagree with any tenet of any religion and allow others that same right. Why isn't my preference the best policy for everybody?