Ask the Christian...................

[Said1]

No.. it doesn't matter.....

That's like saying if you quote a Bible verse w/o saying which one it is - negates its truth...

You didn't quote the bible, you copied an article written by someone else. But whatever, keep on copying and pasting, makes you look good.

 

[-Cp]

You didn't quote the bible, you copied an article written by someone else. But whatever, keep on copying and pasting, makes you look good.

You've completely missed the point.....

 

[rtwngAvngr]

It doesn't matter who wrote it - it's truth in what it says is the same regardless...

Dude. I don't believe you passed off other people's stuff as your own. That's bad.

 

[MJDuncan1982]

Wasn't there something recently posted about citing sources?

 

[Said1]

You've completely missed the point.....

Uh, no, you missed the point. Dude.

 

[Said1]

Anywho......

This thread has gone way off topic (as I suspected it would) ......

Yes it has. You're dismissed.

 

[5stringJeff]

No more comments on this thread eh? gop_jeff??

Sorry, Duane, I had a long weekend. Promise to respond tomorrow (Monday).

 

[5stringJeff]

Right - and what's the greek-word for Hell? Ghenna? Wasn't that a place outside of Jeresulem where they dumped their garbage?

Again - no answer to my question - if "the lost" are tossed into torment - is it for all eternity? If so, where does it say that in the Bible?

The word Jesus used (several times) that is translated "hell" is "gehenna." That was a place outside of Jerusalem, known in the OT as the Valley of Himmon, which was indeed a garbage dump. It also was constantly burning, and by using that imagery, Jesus' comtemporaries would have understood hell as a place where fire is always burning, and if sould were sentenced there, they would be constantly on fire.

As to your second question, here are some passages for you (emphasis mine):

Matthew 18:7-9 (NIV): “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."

Matthew 25:41-46: “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Revelation 20:15: "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

 

[-Cp]

The English word Hell grew into its present meaning. The words hell, heel, hill, hole, whole, hall, hull, halt and hold are all from the same root.

"Hell, any place, or some place covered over. Heel, that part of the foot which is covered by the leg. Hill, any heap of earth, or stone, etc., by which the plain or level surface of the earth is covered. Hale, i.e., healed or whole. Whole, the same as hale, i.e., covered. It was formerly written whole, without the w, as a wound or sore is healed, or whole, that is, covered over by the skin, which manner of expression will not seem extraordinary if we consider our use of the word recover. Hall, a covered building, where persons assemble, or where goods are protected from the weather. Hull, of a nut, etc. That by which a nut is covered. Hole, some place covered over. 'You shall seek for holes to hide your heads in.' Holt, holed, hol'd holt. A rising ground or knoll covered with trees. Hold, as the hold of a ship, in which things are covered, or the covered part of a ship."

The word was first applied to the grave by our German and English ancestors, and as superstition came to regard the grave as an entrance to a world of torment, Hell at length became the word used to denote an imaginary realm of fiery woe.

"The word Hell, used in the common translation, conveys now an improper meaning of the original word; because Hell is only used to signify the place of the damned. But as the word Hell comes from the Anglo-Saxon helan, to cover, or hide, henee the tiling or slating of a house is called, in some parts of England (particularly Cornwall), heling, to this day, and the corers of books (in Lancashire), by the same name, so the literal import of the original word hades was formerly well expressed by it."

Also there is not one instance in the Bible where the word hell is used that it does not refer to a place on the earth.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

 

[-Cp]

It is important to note that this separation of the sheep from the goats was brought about, not on the basis of whether one had accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour, but solely on the basis of WORKS. Everything depended entirely upon what the sheep or goats had DONE or NOT DONE. There was nothing of faith or a spiritual experience connected with this separation. The sheep were set on God's RIGHT HAND because of the fact that they had done something — given meat and drink to the Lord's brethren, clothed them, visited them, and comforted them. And note — in the whole parable there are only three companies: the sheep, the goats, and the Lord 's brethren. The Lord's brethren are the body of Christ. This has nothing to do with winning souls, or visiting the people in the wards at the hospital, or giving food and clothing to the poor or to the derelicts on Skid Row. It is not a ministry to the lost or to humanity but a ministry unto the body of Christ, the Lord's brethren. It is not about what the saints do for others, but what the nations do in regard to the people of God. It is not individuals that are gathered at the right hand and the left hand of God, but all the nations. All these things the Lord said they had DONE TO HIM.
But the sheep (good nations) confessed that they had never seen Him, so how could they have done these things to the Lord? He answered, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of one of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me. All of this is a kind of ministry unto the Lord Himself, and it brought these nations of people into a separation unto the RIGHT HAND of God!

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/kingdom/heavens41.html

 

[5stringJeff]

The English word Hell grew into its present meaning. The words hell, heel, hill, hole, whole, hall, hull, halt and hold are all from the same root.

"Hell, any place, or some place covered over. Heel, that part of the foot which is covered by the leg. Hill, any heap of earth, or stone, etc., by which the plain or level surface of the earth is covered. Hale, i.e., healed or whole. Whole, the same as hale, i.e., covered. It was formerly written whole, without the w, as a wound or sore is healed, or whole, that is, covered over by the skin, which manner of expression will not seem extraordinary if we consider our use of the word recover. Hall, a covered building, where persons assemble, or where goods are protected from the weather. Hull, of a nut, etc. That by which a nut is covered. Hole, some place covered over. 'You shall seek for holes to hide your heads in.' Holt, holed, hol'd holt. A rising ground or knoll covered with trees. Hold, as the hold of a ship, in which things are covered, or the covered part of a ship."

The word was first applied to the grave by our German and English ancestors, and as superstition came to regard the grave as an entrance to a world of torment, Hell at length became the word used to denote an imaginary realm of fiery woe.

"The word Hell, used in the common translation, conveys now an improper meaning of the original word; because Hell is only used to signify the place of the damned. But as the word Hell comes from the Anglo-Saxon helan, to cover, or hide, henee the tiling or slating of a house is called, in some parts of England (particularly Cornwall), heling, to this day, and the corers of books (in Lancashire), by the same name, so the literal import of the original word hades was formerly well expressed by it."

Also there is not one instance in the Bible where the word hell is used that it does not refer to a place on the earth.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

Interesting that you would link to a page that teaches the doctrine of "universal salvation" - in other words, that all men will be saved. This is not a Christian doctrine, so you are, in effect, arguing against orthodox Christian teachings. But regardless, you did not address the two verses I highlighted, which do not use the word 'hell,' but do address eternal punishment of the unrighteous.

 

[5stringJeff]

It is important to note that this separation of the sheep from the goats was brought about, not on the basis of whether one had accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour, but solely on the basis of WORKS. Everything depended entirely upon what the sheep or goats had DONE or NOT DONE. There was nothing of faith or a spiritual experience connected with this separation. The sheep were set on God's RIGHT HAND because of the fact that they had done something — given meat and drink to the Lord's brethren, clothed them, visited them, and comforted them. And note — in the whole parable there are only three companies: the sheep, the goats, and the Lord 's brethren. The Lord's brethren are the body of Christ. This has nothing to do with winning souls, or visiting the people in the wards at the hospital, or giving food and clothing to the poor or to the derelicts on Skid Row. It is not a ministry to the lost or to humanity but a ministry unto the body of Christ, the Lord's brethren. It is not about what the saints do for others, but what the nations do in regard to the people of God. It is not individuals that are gathered at the right hand and the left hand of God, but all the nations. All these things the Lord said they had DONE TO HIM.
But the sheep (good nations) confessed that they had never seen Him, so how could they have done these things to the Lord? He answered, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of one of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me. All of this is a kind of ministry unto the Lord Himself, and it brought these nations of people into a separation unto the RIGHT HAND of God!

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/kingdom/heavens41.html

Again, Dr. Eby preaches a message of universal salvation, which is a flawed doctrine based off of good intentions and feelings, not based in Biblical teachings. Because if God is going to save us all anyway, what's the point of being a Christian?

 

[-Cp]

Again, Dr. Eby preaches a message of universal salvation, which is a flawed doctrine based off of good intentions and feelings, not based in Biblical teachings. Because if God is going to save us all anyway, what's the point of being a Christian?

By that same logic, what would be the point of God creating Billions and Billions of people over the ages just to lose over 95% of them to Satan? Seriously...

 

[rtwngAvngr]

By that same logic, what would be the point of God creating Billions and Billions of people over the ages just to lose over 95% of them to Satan? Seriously...

This way there's a choice. evil actions, crimes, selfishness, envy are all explained away in satan's worldview. "your upbringing absolves you, your economic status absovles you, the republicans are doing it, etc etc"

 

[-Cp]

This way there's a choice. evil actions, crimes, selfishness, envy are all explained away in satan's worldview. "your upbringing absolves you, your economic status absovles you, the republicans are doing it, etc etc"

Right, but the question begs to be asked "Why would such a loving creator who's "Will is that all men be saved" - so willling to create so many people knowing before-hand that they'll end up burning in fire forever?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Right, but the question begs to be asked "Why would such a loving creator who's "Will is that all men be saved" - so willling to create so many people knowing before-hand that they'll end up burning in fire forever?

His will is that ALL WHO CHOOSE to be saved, be saved. If you don't want him, and you don't strive to live righteously, he don't want ya. Maybe he created alot of us to increase his chances of getting some good loyal ones. He's like a farmer planting extra corn in case some goes bad. Some call it maize.

 

[Nienna]

Why? What is the logic behind that particular idea?

Hi. I'm new on here, but I feel compelled to reply here, if I may. Please bear with me.

I guess you're asking what is the logic behind a good and loving God punishing his creatures with eternal torment? We have to keep in mind that God is not only perfectly loving, but also perfectly just.

God made people because he wanted children to love who would choose to love him in return. He didn't want doll babies or puppets, so he gave us free will. We can choose to love him, or not. He went way overboard to make sure it was our choice, not being forced by his power.

Unfortunately, we all screw up, every single person. We have all perverted his plan for us. So we all deserve punishment and banishment from His perfect love and presence. That is justice.

Because of his mercy and loving nature, he provided a way to get out of this punishment. He created a new man (Jesus), and entered his own spirit into this body. He lived a perfect life, without one mistake. He did not deserve his punishment, dying a horrific death. He did this to satisfy the need for justice. He took the punishment for all of us, so we don't have to be condemned to Hell. Anyone who gives up his own ways and chooses to obey Jesus gets out of Hell.

I think the Wetern ideals of autonomy and independence can get in the way of accepting this gift because we tend to think "I'm not so bad, I'll do it my way." We forget that God was not created for our pleasure; we were created for his.

Everyone has the same opportunity here. Some people choose not to take it. In being fair to those who choose God's way, he must punish those who don't.

Sorry so long.

This was my first post ever on a message board. Yay for me!

 

[5stringJeff]

Hi. I'm new on here, but I feel compelled to reply here, if I may. Please bear with me.

I guess you're asking what is the logic behind a good and loving God punishing his creatures with eternal torment? We have to keep in mind that God is not only perfectly loving, but also perfectly just.

God made people because he wanted children to love who would choose to love him in return. He didn't want doll babies or puppets, so he gave us free will. We can choose to love him, or not. He went way overboard to make sure it was our choice, not being forced by his power.

Unfortunately, we all screw up, every single person. We have all perverted his plan for us. So we all deserve punishment and banishment from His perfect love and presence. That is justice.

Because of his mercy and loving nature, he provided a way to get out of this punishment. He created a new man (Jesus), and entered his own spirit into this body. He lived a perfect life, without one mistake. He did not deserve his punishment, dying a horrific death. He did this to satisfy the need for justice. He took the punishment for all of us, so we don't have to be condemned to Hell. Anyone who gives up his own ways and chooses to obey Jesus gets out of Hell.

I think the Wetern ideals of autonomy and independence can get in the way of accepting this gift because we tend to think "I'm not so bad, I'll do it my way." We forget that God was not created for our pleasure; we were created for his.

Everyone has the same opportunity here. Some people choose not to take it. In being fair to those who choose God's way, he must punish those who don't.

Sorry so long.

This was my first post ever on a message board. Yay for me!

Welcome mom4! Frankly, you said exactly what I was going to say.

 

[-Cp]

His will is that ALL WHO CHOOSE to be saved, be saved. If you don't want him, and you don't strive to live righteously, he don't want ya. Maybe he created alot of us to increase his chances of getting some good loyal ones. He's like a farmer planting extra corn in case some goes bad. Some call it maize.

Oh really, and where in scripture does it say that he wants "ALL WHO CHOOSE" to be saved"??

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Oh really, and where in scripture does it say that he wants "ALL WHO CHOOSE" to be saved"??

That's a paraphrase of the general idea of the whole damn thing.

Are you saying christianity does not recognize free will and the importance of actively accepting christ and living better? It's free choice, baby.