Ask the Christian...................

[-Cp]

Hi. I'm new on here, but I feel compelled to reply here, if I may. Please bear with me.

I guess you're asking what is the logic behind a good and loving God punishing his creatures with eternal torment? We have to keep in mind that God is not only perfectly loving, but also perfectly just.

God made people because he wanted children to love who would choose to love him in return. He didn't want doll babies or puppets, so he gave us free will. We can choose to love him, or not. He went way overboard to make sure it was our choice, not being forced by his power.

Unfortunately, we all screw up, every single person. We have all perverted his plan for us. So we all deserve punishment and banishment from His perfect love and presence. That is justice.

Because of his mercy and loving nature, he provided a way to get out of this punishment. He created a new man (Jesus), and entered his own spirit into this body. He lived a perfect life, without one mistake. He did not deserve his punishment, dying a horrific death. He did this to satisfy the need for justice. He took the punishment for all of us, so we don't have to be condemned to Hell. Anyone who gives up his own ways and chooses to obey Jesus gets out of Hell.

I think the Wetern ideals of autonomy and independence can get in the way of accepting this gift because we tend to think "I'm not so bad, I'll do it my way." We forget that God was not created for our pleasure; we were created for his.

Everyone has the same opportunity here. Some people choose not to take it. In being fair to those who choose God's way, he must punish those who don't.

Sorry so long.

This was my first post ever on a message board. Yay for me!

Welcome to the forums..

Nobody ever said that God isn't just - in fact, he has a history of correcting those whom he loves...

What you're implying here is that all men have a so-called "free-will" ; however, that's not implicitly laid-out in scripture..

In fact, the case can be made that the only man who ever had true "free-will" was Adam - since he chose to sin we're all born of sin which is not "free-will".. it's not our choice to be born with the nature of sin - that choice was made for us long ago back in the garden..

In fact, we can't even "choose" to be saved as it's the job of the Holy Spirit to do that "Unless the Spirit convicts a man, he cannot be born again"...

Free-will implies that we have ultimate control over our own salvation - there's a difference between true free-will and a man's response to the Spirit...

Additionally, free-will also implies that we can move "in and out" of a state of Salvation, however, "no one who is born of the spirit will continue to sin"..

I'm sorry, but the arguement for "free-will" doesn't jive with me or what I've seen in scripture...

The implication that man has the ability to thwart God's ultimate will is rather boastful about the power we have over our own destiny..

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Being born in sin doesn't negate freewill. It's your choice to accept or reject the salvation offered through jesus.

If this doesn't JIVE with you, then tell me which word you don't understand and we'll go over it again.

 

[-Cp]

Being born in sin doesn't negate freewill. It your choice to accept or reject the salvation offered through jesus.

If thise doesn't JIVE with you, then tell me which word you don't understand and we'll go over it again.

I want you to use scripture to prove the case of "free will"...

Seriously, step down from the pentecostal talking-points and use the Bible to back your argument...

Where was Esau's "free will"?



Romans 9:11 & 9:13 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God's purpose in election might stand:
13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Dude.. he wasn't even born yet God's will superceeded Esau's so-called "free will"...

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I want you to use scripture to prove the case of "free will"...

Seriously, step down from the pentecostal talking-points and use the Bible to back your argument...

I want you to tell me YOUR understanding of free will within christianity. Everyone is saved regardless?

Let's get our positions straight before we start haranguing each other for proof. Deal? what is your position exactly?

 

[-Cp]

I want you to tell me YOUR understanding of free will within christianity. Everyone is saved regardless?

Let's get our positions straight before we start haranguing each other for proof. Deal? what is your position exactly?

My two main points in this thread are:

1. Do people really go to hell forever? Or is it for a period of time - a way of God punishing them in a corrective manner?

2. Where in the Bible does it say man has a "free will" that can or does over-rule God's will?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

My two main points in this thread are:

1. Do people really go to hell forever? Or is it for a period of time - a way of God punishing them in a corrective manner?

2. Where in the Bible does it say man has a "free will" that can or does over-rule God's will?

Those aren't points. They're questions.

Let me repeat: what is your current understanding of free will within christianity?

 

[-Cp]

Those aren't points. They're questions.

Let me repeat: what is your current understanding of free will within christianity?

I'm not convinced at all that man has this enlightened sense of "free will" - I think the only will that man has is to sin...

if mankind truely had a "free will" he'd have the ability to find God on his own.. when in fact we know from scripture that's not possible "Unless the Spirit convicts a man......"

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I'm not convinced at all that man has this enlightened sense of "free will" - I think the only will that man has is to sin...

if mankind truely had a "free will" he'd have the ability to find God on his own.. when in fact we know from scripture that's not possible "Unless the Spirit convicts a man......"

If man truly had freewill he could fly, therefore there must not be freewill.

This is a hyperbole of the flawed logical pattern you're using.

 

[-Cp]

If man truly had freewill he could fly, therefore there must not be freewill.

This is a hyperbole of the flawed logical pattern you're using.

You're good at dancing around the fact that you have no way to Biblically prove to me your case for "free will".... .:/

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You're good at dancing around the fact that you have no way to Biblically prove to me your case for "free will".... .:/

It's not a dance. Your logic is obscene. Just because you may need jesus to get to god, doesn't mean there's no choice, you still must choose salvation through jesus, or not. see. the "or not" means it's a choice. See? See?

 

[-Cp]

It's not a dance. Your logic is obscene. Just because you may need jesus to get to god, doesn't mean there's no choice, you still must choose salvation through jesus, or not. see. the "or not" means it's a choice. See? See?

Nope, I dont' see what you mean...

Seriously.. .when was the last time you met a person who truely rejected the conviction of the Holy Spirit? and said "No thanks, I don't want to go to Heaven, I love living a life of Sin - in fact, I can't wait to burn in flames for my sin - sin-on dude!"...

The Bible says (and I don't care about your examples to the contrary):

"Who resists God's Will?" - Romans 9

 

[-Cp]

In fact, go read the entire chapter of Romans 9 - then come back and talk to me about "free will".... :/

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Nope, I dont' see what you mean...

Seriously.. .when was the last time you met a person who truely rejected the conviction of the Holy Spirit? and said "No thanks, I don't want to go to Heaven, I love living a life of Sin - in fact, I can't wait to burn in flames for my sin - sin-on dude!"...

The Bible says (and I don't care about your examples to the contrary):

"Who resists God's Will?" - Romans 9

"who resists god's will?" again another question.

So you believe there is no choice in coming to god? I believe that is a very atypical interpretation of christian doctrine

I don't recall the last time I was around a person beseiged by the holy spirit. I mean, I didn't have proof positive, but this dude was sure shaking funny.

 

[-Cp]

"who resists god's will?" again another question.

So you believe there is no choice in coming to god? I believe that is a very atypical interpretation of christian doctrine

I don't recall the last time I was around a person beseiged by the holy spirit. I mean, I didn't have proof positive, but this dude was sure shaking funny.

Again, it's your job to convince ME that you're view is correct - that'll only be done Biblically - not thru these sort of statements....

 

[Said1]

Isn't there something in Genesis somewhere about choosing between good and evil - as in "may, will, or can choose"?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

In fact, go read the entire chapter of Romans 9 - then come back and talk to me about "free will".... :/

There was talk of the mercy of god, sure, but there was also talk of "pursuit of righteousness through works (the jews) or faith (the gentiles)". Doesn't it take freewill to pursue anything? I say yes. Hence your passage is a flimsy and defeated artifact of our discussion. Dig it.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Again, it's your job to convince ME that you're view is correct - that'll only be done Biblically - not thru these sort of statements....

No. this is not a court of law. You don't determine where the burden of proof lies. I'm convinced I presented a better case and that you look silly. I'm happy leaving it where it is.

Your romans selection was flimy.

 

[-Cp]

There was talk of the mercy of god, sure, but there was also talk of "pursuit of righteousness through works (the jews) or faith (the gentiles)". Doesn't it take freewill to pursue anything? I say yes. Hence your passage is a flimsy and defeated artifact of our discussion. Dig it.

Nope, the pursuit of righteousness can only happen to the saved - that's not free-will, that's God's provision of working in your life after you've entered into a relationship with him...

Once again, Biblical references to support your view are void...

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Nope, the pursuit of righteousness can only happen to the saved - that's not free-will, that's God's provision of working in your life after you've entered into a relationship with him...

Once again, Biblical references to support your view are void...

Isnt it a choice to enter into a relationship with him, even in your skewed scenario? Seems like it is judging from your words above. Words mean things.

 

[-Cp]

Isnt it a choice to enter into a relationship with him, even in your skewed scenario? Seems like it is judging from your words above. Words mean things.

If God's will is to have a relationship with you, then he foreknew that'd happen, right?

So what it sounds like is that God's the one doing the choosing here i.e. free-will...

Once again, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD - please back up your view using the BIBLE - I know, it might be foreign for you do consider that, but please do..