Abortions: Should Women be Allowed to Choose?

[JoeB131]

[Joe was NEVER a Conservative, or Catholic, as he laughingly tries to claim.....His values (as if he actually had any) are far left wing, progressive lunacy, nothing more....And no doubt, he's ALWAYS had those loony values.

yup. because you are incapable of changing your mind or thinking about things or re-evaluating your life based on new data, no one else should be, either. Got it. Are you honestly going to tell me you've never changed your mind on anything?

A man who never changes his mind probably doesn't have much of a mind to start with.

[
Notice how the clown tries to blame his former boss for all failures in life, which is so typical of progressives.....He was obviously let go from his job because he couldn't perform, couldn't get his ass there everyday, and was most likely lousy at his job...And, if he was too sickly to get his ass to work, and became a financial liability on the business, his ass definitely should have been let go.....Nobody owes his sorry ass a damn thing, NOBODY!

Where do you get "failure" out of that statement? Point was, I worked there for six years as a Purchasing agent. (By comparison, in the time since I left, that same company has gone through five Purchasing Agents because they couldn't handle it or just walked off and quit.)

For the record, the sequence of events went like this. I worked there for five years. Got exemplary reviews. Then I required a couple of operations that cost a total of $50,000. Insurance picked that up, but as often happened at this company, when you made an insurance claim, they tried to get rid of you.

Initially, they tried to get me to quit on my own by giving me job duties that had NOTHING to do with my field of expertise. This is when I got the "Good thing I don't have to listen to a Union" speech. (There were about a dozen other things in play at that point. Mostly, they wanted to retain my skills because they really thought they were going to get the major account they had lost back and couldn't reproduce what I already knew.)

I did those really well, too. Then they gave me no job duties. They literally paid me to do NOTHING for three months. The idea was to get me to quit on my own- and believe me, I was trying my best to get something else.

But your boy Bush had fucked up the economy so bad that became a tricky proposition. But hey, he was against abortion, that was the important thing.

So, no, after that whole expereince, I realized that the social issues are just bullshit to keep the Rubes voting against their own economic interests.

I just refused to be a rube over some dumb religious shit I never cared that much about to start with.

 

[JoeB131]

[

No Joe, those who fall in line with consensus are fools. Like you. You participate in the willful cognitive dissonance known as the mainstream, barking and swallowing opinions at will.

This post just proves that your position is wrong, although it is your position. This is an utterly childish response. When you lack a counterpoint, you hurl insults and witless quips. Sarcasm equals the death of an argument.

You had better try a bit harder than that Joe. A lot harder.

Guy, you stupid bible thumping fucks have screwed up this country for nothing. This is why I have nothing but contempt for you.

You didn't stop one abortion, but you helped the rich destroy the middle class (probably causing MORE abortions.)

This is why I have nothing but contempt for you.

 

[JoeB131]

You're lying about that too, I'm sure.

Yup, everyone who disagrees with you is lying.

Because you can't handle the thought that anyone can honestly have a different opinion than you do.

The sad thing is, you are such a RUBE.

You really think the GOP cares about the fetuses as much as you do.

They don't.

It's why abortion is still legal even though the court has been stacked with Republican appointees for decades.

I don't think everyone lies, but I know that you do.

And the rest of your insane blathering is apropos of...what, exactly? I can't see that it has anything to do with anything. What you think I think is not only wildly fanciful...it's completely irrelevant.

Well, I know, this is a congitive disconnect for you.

How many times have you voted for a candidate because he was agains abortion?

And why is abortion still legal despite that?

It's a pretty simple equation.

Because they are playing you for a rube. They don't want to stop abortions. The wealthy want their mistresses to be able to "take care of that problem".

But they can get you to keep voting for tax cuts for the rich and free trade treaties and shit that does nothing to help you.

 

[Gadawg73]

It is funny how I see here the one side that wants less government on everything else and more government power to pick and choose which women get an abortion and who doesn't.
And then on the other side I see many that want more government for everything else from health care to housing to everything yet they want less government when it comes to abortion.
But that is a good thing as it shows without doubt the ONE common denominator is GOVERNMENT.
Government stays out of the health decisions of a woman and a pregnant woman that decides to have an abortion is HER decision, not the governments.

 

[JoeB131]

IAnd then on the other side I see many that want more government for everything else from health care to housing to everything yet they want less government when it comes to abortion.
But that is a good thing as it shows without doubt the ONE common denominator is GOVERNMENT.
.

Not quite.

The plutocrat wants government to work for the rich. That's the point. They want a government that will chase off striking workers you just fired. They want government to give them a tax break when they m ove their factory to Mexico, and then not charge Tariffs on the goods when they come back in. And they want government to spend 900 billlion keeping the trade lanes open.

They just don't want government standing up for working folks doing stuff like making sure they aren't cheating them on that insurance they promised them.

 

[Dragonlady]

Liberals don't want women to have abortions or end their pregnancies. They want women to have the right to choose what is right for them and their families. But poor women won't choose to put their families and their existing children at risk to have a baby that they can neither afford to give birth to, nor support once the child has been born.

Liberal opposition to abortion laws has NOTHING to do with a mistrust of government or a desire for smaller government and everything to do with personal rights.

And Jester, you ideas for alleviating poverty are not feasible. The City of New Orleans tried your "charter school" voucher idea for five years after Katrina. 21 new Charter schools were built in the New Orleans school district. The idea has been abandoned. Poor people couldn't afford the Charter Schools and the school board found the program to be far more expensive than public schools. The few remaining public schools were overwhelmed by the demand.

Right-wing free market ideas are poor substitutes for well funded, well run public education.

 

[eots]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5atn-FwfNQM]Abortion is SUPER FUN!! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Wicked Jester]

Liberals don't want women to have abortions or end their pregnancies. They want women to have the right to choose what is right for them and their families. But poor women won't choose to put their families and their existing children at risk to have a baby that they can neither afford to give birth to, nor support once the child has been born.

Liberal opposition to abortion laws has NOTHING to do with a mistrust of government or a desire for smaller government and everything to do with personal rights.

And Jester, you ideas for alleviating poverty are not feasible. The City of New Orleans tried your "charter school" voucher idea for five years after Katrina. 21 new Charter schools were built in the New Orleans school district. The idea has been abandoned. Poor people couldn't afford the Charter Schools and the school board found the program to be far more expensive than public schools. The few remaining public schools were overwhelmed by the demand.

Right-wing free market ideas are poor substitutes for well funded, well run public education.

LMAO!

Funny how use post-Katrina New Orleans as an example, a city who didn't even have an evacuation plan in place in case the Levee System failed, and a city who re-elected an idiot Dem Mayor who, along with an idiot Dem Governor, are 100% fully responsible for the chaos the city and its citizens suffered through....No excuses, no blaming Bush, you dems OWN that disaster free and clear, too include everything that happened afterwards....You Dems cannot deny it, no matter hard you cackle on and try too.

And, the Charter School system over in L.A. has been a success, because it's well run, and free of corruption.....It's helped reduced class sizes in public school, thereby giving students more one on one time with their teachers.....It's also allowed the District to get rid of teachers who were lousy, and lets face it, there are lousy teachers all over the public school system in this country.

Funny also, how you progressives think that throwing money at every damn problem is the only fix, while they refuse to discuss the real problems with our failing education system.....Those being, union involvement, lousy teachers, lousy administrators, lousy parents, fraud, corruption, overcrowded classrooms, and an overall sense of entitlement for all involved.

 

[Dragonlady]

And, the Charter School system over in L.A. has been a success, because it's well run, and free of corruption.....It's helped reduced class sizes in public school, thereby giving students more one on one time with their teachers.....It's also allowed the District to get rid of teachers who were lousy, and lets face it, there are lousy teachers all over the public school system in this country.

Funny also, how you progressives think that throwing money at every damn problem is the only fix, while they refuse to discuss the real problems with our failing education system.....Those being, union involvement, lousy teachers, lousy administrators, lousy parents, fraud, corruption, overcrowded classrooms, and an overall sense of entitlement for all involved.

The ONLY thing that charter schools do is to starve the public system of money.

When you offer low wages to teachers, you're going to get people who have failed at jobs in the private sector or couldn't find one. There is little incentive for bright, capable people to get involved in the profession. Same for the administrators. Overcrowded classrooms are the result of too little funding.

People should be entitled to a high standard of education in the primary grades and in high school. This is where tomorrow's workers come from. The US has been dropping in education standings precisely because you have a patchwork and poorly managed education system.

Anything in the US which relies on public money, save and except for the military, is poorly funded.

 

[Wicked Jester]

And, the Charter School system over in L.A. has been a success, because it's well run, and free of corruption.....It's helped reduced class sizes in public school, thereby giving students more one on one time with their teachers.....It's also allowed the District to get rid of teachers who were lousy, and lets face it, there are lousy teachers all over the public school system in this country.

Funny also, how you progressives think that throwing money at every damn problem is the only fix, while they refuse to discuss the real problems with our failing education system.....Those being, union involvement, lousy teachers, lousy administrators, lousy parents, fraud, corruption, overcrowded classrooms, and an overall sense of entitlement for all involved.

The ONLY thing that charter schools do is to starve the public system of money.

When you offer low wages to teachers, you're going to get people who have failed at jobs in the private sector or couldn't find one. There is little incentive for bright, capable people to get involved in the profession. Same for the administrators. Overcrowded classrooms are the result of too little funding.

People should be entitled to a high standard of education in the primary grades and in high school. This is where tomorrow's workers come from. The US has been dropping in education standings precisely because you have a patchwork and poorly managed education system.

Anything in the US which relies on public money, save and except for the military, is poorly funded.

You obviously don't know how a well run Charter School system runs....The teachers are generally paid more, and attracts the best of the best, and the best part is, teachers who don't perform are not protected by a union, and are summarily fired, as they should be ....It allows public school systems to reduce class sizes, or close antiquated schools that would cost big bucks to modernize.....And the most important thing, is it puts the power in the hands of parents, who can't afford to send their kids to Private Schools (who are providing educations that kick the crap out of the failed public school system), to pull their kids out of a failing school, thereby giving their kids a chance to have a solid education, which is the #1 key to breaking the cycle of poverty.

We've been throwing money left and right at our public school system and they continue to fail nationwide.....It's time for a myriad of big changes, now, or else.

 

[JoeB131]

[]You obviously don't know how a well run Charter School system runs....The teachers are generally paid more, and attracts the best of the best, and the best part is, teachers who don't perform are not protected by a union, and are summarily fired, as they should be ....It allows public school systems to reduce class sizes, or close antiquated schools that would cost big bucks to modernize.....And the most important thing, is it puts the power in the hands of parents, who can't afford to send their kids to Private Schools (who are providing educations that kick the crap out of the failed public school system), to pull their kids out of a failing school, thereby giving their kids a chance to have a solid education, which is the #1 key to breaking the cycle of poverty.

We've been throwing money left and right at our public school system and they continue to fail nationwide.....It's time for a myriad of big changes, now, or else.

Again, guy, you fall for a lot of fallacies about education.

Now, while conceding there are lots of problems with public education, the thing is charter schools and private schools can cherry pick which kids they can take, and they do.

They don't take Corky the Retarded kid and the Gangbanger kid and the other kids with problems. They just take the ones they want, and throw out the problem kids.

The Myth of Charter Schools by Diane Ravitch | The New York Review of Books

Some fact-checking is in order, and the place to start is with the film’s quiet acknowledgment that only one in five charter schools is able to get the “amazing results” that it celebrates. Nothing more is said about this astonishing statistic. It is drawn from a national study of charter schools by Stanford economist Margaret Raymond (the wife of Hanushek). Known as the CREDO study, it evaluated student progress on math tests in half the nation’s five thousand charter schools and concluded that 17 percent were superior to a matched traditional public school; 37 percent were worse than the public school; and the remaining 46 percent had academic gains no different from that of a similar public school.

 

[JoeB131]

But wait, there's More!

Charter schools that start bad stay bad, study finds

The latest report, conveniently released during National School Choice Week, found that the success or failure of charters can be predicted by the third of operation. Assigning charters to one of five different ranks based on performance, the researchers found that 80 percent at the bottom in their first year were still at the bottom in year five. Ninety-four percent of charters that began at the top level were still there five years later.

The only schools that saw any movement across levels were those in the second-lowest level; by year five; half had fallen to the bottom and the other half had improved, mostly to the third level. And the report said that it was only elementary schools that showed an upward pattern of growth. “Substantial improvement over time is largely absent from middle schools, multi-level schools and high schools,” it said.

It should also be pointed out that if you are the kind of parent who wants to get his kid into a charter school or parochial school to start with, you are also more likely to be the kind of parent who doesn't see the school as a free babysitter.

 

[Wicked Jester]

[]You obviously don't know how a well run Charter School system runs....The teachers are generally paid more, and attracts the best of the best, and the best part is, teachers who don't perform are not protected by a union, and are summarily fired, as they should be ....It allows public school systems to reduce class sizes, or close antiquated schools that would cost big bucks to modernize.....And the most important thing, is it puts the power in the hands of parents, who can't afford to send their kids to Private Schools (who are providing educations that kick the crap out of the failed public school system), to pull their kids out of a failing school, thereby giving their kids a chance to have a solid education, which is the #1 key to breaking the cycle of poverty.

We've been throwing money left and right at our public school system and they continue to fail nationwide.....It's time for a myriad of big changes, now, or else.

Again, guy, you fall for a lot of fallacies about education.

Now, while conceding there are lots of problems with public education, the thing is charter schools and private schools can cherry pick which kids they can take, and they do.

They don't take Corky the Retarded kid and the Gangbanger kid and the other kids with problems. They just take the ones they want, and throw out the problem kids.

The Myth of Charter Schools by Diane Ravitch | The New York Review of Books

Some fact-checking is in order, and the place to start is with the film’s quiet acknowledgment that only one in five charter schools is able to get the “amazing results” that it celebrates. Nothing more is said about this astonishing statistic. It is drawn from a national study of charter schools by Stanford economist Margaret Raymond (the wife of Hanushek). Known as the CREDO study, it evaluated student progress on math tests in half the nation’s five thousand charter schools and concluded that 17 percent were superior to a matched traditional public school; 37 percent were worse than the public school; and the remaining 46 percent had academic gains no different from that of a similar public school.

Funny how you use Diane Ravitch, who was debunked because her book was primarily made up of cherry picked results of the study...Here's what the real results of the study revealed, and shows what a well run Charter system can produce......And all that is needed, is the lifting of caps regarding students with disabilities and those learning english....Caps originally set by legislators themselves.....Michigans Charter Schools program is the model of things to come, and even an inept fool like Obama realizes that Charter Schools are the wave of the future....And, seeing as though the government can't simply run a passenger rail system that carries travelers from L.A. to Chicago, or deliver a letter from mailbox to mailbox without losing money, it's time the government starts slowly handing the reins of our childrens educations to the private sector, who can and will produce positive results.

www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/18164

But then, you libprog loons will fight it tooth and nail, for the government are your nannies, and you all cannot exist without the government holding your hands every step of the way. Sadly, that goes for your children also, which is why so many of you ghouls elect to have them brutally killed in the womb, as your backup method of birth control. And it's downright laughable when anyone of you claims to be sad about it....And, it's obvious you ghouls don't give a shit about children whatsoever, for you ghouls fight against anything that will improve those childrens lives, particularly the poor children who are stuck in a perpetually failing, government run school system....Yep, for you ghouls, it's all about whatever the government gives you, tells you, or promises you....And if the children get left behind, FUCK 'EM.....They're nothing more than inconvenient lil' bastards as far as you libprog ghouls are concerned (those that actually survive a libprog pregnancy without being summarily killed and ripped from the womb, anyway), only to be used as props to advance your loony agenda, nothing more.

 

[JoeB131]

[]Funny how you use Diane Ravitch, who was debunked because her book was primarily made up of cherry picked results of the study...

Right.. Ravitch is debunked the way Kellerman is "debunked". If an academic proves that the world doesn't work the way you say it does... they are debunked.

And all that is needed, is the lifting of caps regarding students with disabilities and those learning english....Caps originally set by legislators themselves.....Michigans Charter Schools program is the model of things to come, and even an inept fool like Obama realizes that Charter Schools are the wave of the future....And, seeing as though the government can't simply run a passenger rail system that carries travelers from L.A. to Chicago, or deliver a letter from mailbox to mailbox without losing money, it's time the government starts slowly handing the reins of our childrens educations to the private sector, who can and will produce positive results.

Actually, the Post office does just fine making a profit delivering mail. the reason they are "losing" money is that the GOP demanded they fund their pensions into perpetuity.

That and no one actually mails anything anymore. When was the last time you sent a letter? I think the last time I did, it was because the person didn't have an e-mail address. And then I found out he was dead, which is why he didn't have one.

Anyway, having seen the effects of privatiziation, no thanks. One needs to look at the prison system to see how privatization just makes matters worse.

[]
But then, you libprog loons will fight it tooth and nail, for the government are your nannies, and you all cannot exist without the government holding your hands every step of the way. Sadly, that goes for your children also, which is why so many of you ghouls elect to have them brutally killed in the womb, as your backup method of birth control. And it's downright laughable when anyone of you claims to be sad about it....

Yawn, guy, you just can't help going into the nutty.

And, it's obvious you ghouls don't give a shit about children whatsoever, for you ghouls fight against anything that will improve those childrens lives, particularly the poor children who are stuck in a perpetually failing, government run school system....Yep, for you ghouls, it's all about whatever the government gives you, tells you, or promises you....And if the children get left behind, FUCK 'EM.....They're nothing more than inconvenient lil' bastards as far as you libprog ghouls are concerned (those that actually survive a libprog pregnancy without being summarily killed and ripped from the womb, anyway), only to be used as props to advance your loony agenda, nothing more.

Yet who tried to kill universal health care, who opposed MEdicAid, who opposes head start, who keeps trying to kill the school lunch program.

That would be the right wing...

Kids would be better off if you cared about them m ore than you care about Dressage Horsies.

 

[editec]

It is so obvious to some of us that all these whining posts about the sanctity of the fetus is just an excuse for misogyny.

The very same trolls who wax poetic about how much they love fetuses, are right here also posting hateful tripe about how much they want the children of the poor to die from their parents poverty, and taking every opportunity to tell us how MANLY they are in real life. ( Lets talk about my gun collection! And then after that, let's all talk about how badly we want to see people punished for something!)

Pumks, the lot of them. Virgins, too would be my guess in many cases Losers in the game of love, for sure..

Little boys talking big because they can't find anyone willing to be their girlfriend.

Pathetic

 

[Wicked Jester]

[]Funny how you use Diane Ravitch, who was debunked because her book was primarily made up of cherry picked results of the study...

Right.. Ravitch is debunked the way Kellerman is "debunked". If an academic proves that the world doesn't work the way you say it does... they are debunked.

And all that is needed, is the lifting of caps regarding students with disabilities and those learning english....Caps originally set by legislators themselves.....Michigans Charter Schools program is the model of things to come, and even an inept fool like Obama realizes that Charter Schools are the wave of the future....And, seeing as though the government can't simply run a passenger rail system that carries travelers from L.A. to Chicago, or deliver a letter from mailbox to mailbox without losing money, it's time the government starts slowly handing the reins of our childrens educations to the private sector, who can and will produce positive results.

Actually, the Post office does just fine making a profit delivering mail. the reason they are "losing" money is that the GOP demanded they fund their pensions into perpetuity.

That and no one actually mails anything anymore. When was the last time you sent a letter? I think the last time I did, it was because the person didn't have an e-mail address. And then I found out he was dead, which is why he didn't have one.

Anyway, having seen the effects of privatiziation, no thanks. One needs to look at the prison system to see how privatization just makes matters worse.

[]
But then, you libprog loons will fight it tooth and nail, for the government are your nannies, and you all cannot exist without the government holding your hands every step of the way. Sadly, that goes for your children also, which is why so many of you ghouls elect to have them brutally killed in the womb, as your backup method of birth control. And it's downright laughable when anyone of you claims to be sad about it....

Yawn, guy, you just can't help going into the nutty.

And, it's obvious you ghouls don't give a shit about children whatsoever, for you ghouls fight against anything that will improve those childrens lives, particularly the poor children who are stuck in a perpetually failing, government run school system....Yep, for you ghouls, it's all about whatever the government gives you, tells you, or promises you....And if the children get left behind, FUCK 'EM.....They're nothing more than inconvenient lil' bastards as far as you libprog ghouls are concerned (those that actually survive a libprog pregnancy without being summarily killed and ripped from the womb, anyway), only to be used as props to advance your loony agenda, nothing more.

Yet who tried to kill universal health care, who opposed MEdicAid, who opposes head start, who keeps trying to kill the school lunch program.

That would be the right wing...

Kids would be better off if you cared about them m ore than you care about Dressage Horsies.

Funny how you conveniently ignore the link that proves Ravitch cherry picked for her book, that was nothing more than an attempt to advance her loony libprog agenda...Just goes to show, you NEVER trust a libprog, or anything they say or claim, under any circumstances

And, isn't it interesting that one of the authors of Obama's albatross of a healthcare bill, Max Baucus, is coming out and admitting it's a disaster.....Yep, you libprogs just can't get anything right.

The rest of your post is nothing more than typical loony libprog talking points, that are complete and utter bullshit, and only worth laughing at.....Much like the story of your life, and the bullshit claims about who's actually responsible for your failures.

 

[Gadawg73]

Many men want government to pick and choose who gets the abortion and who doesn't as that is exactly the result of making abortion a crime.
And all that would happen anyway if Roe was overturned is the states would make their own laws again as it was pre Roe.
And many states pre Roe abortion WAS LEGAL.
For the 10,002nd time now:
Wealthy women always get their abortion as NO LAW stops them and poor women are forced to have their babies they do not want and in most cases have no clue how to take care of.
And that is the real reason men want abortion laws so they can have government tell the poor women they can not abort.
They could care less that the wealthy still would receive all the abortion they wanted.

 

[Gadawg73]

What amazes me is the ignorance of the folks that claim all this "liberal" BS on the supporters of abortion rights.
Alaska had abortion legal pre Roe and they are one of the most conservative states out there.

 

[editec]

There is nothing inherently conservative about wanting to take away a womans absolute RIGHT to control her own body.

In FACT, that anti-abortion POV isn't conservative or liberal.

It is nothing more than misogyny masquaded as noble sentiment.

If your GOD think abortions are bad, don't have one.

Pretty simply concept, really.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Many men want government to pick and choose who gets the abortion and who doesn't as that is exactly the result of making abortion a crime.
And all that would happen anyway if Roe was overturned is the states would make their own laws again as it was pre Roe.
And many states pre Roe abortion WAS LEGAL.
For the 10,002nd time now:
Wealthy women always get their abortion as NO LAW stops them and poor women are forced to have their babies they do not want and in most cases have no clue how to take care of.
And that is the real reason men want abortion laws so they can have government tell the poor women they can not abort.
They could care less that the wealthy still would receive all the abortion they wanted.

A.) It's couldn't* care less.
B.) Just like DragonLady or Joel, your facts really aren't. Prior to 1973, only four states allowed abortion upon request, which is the status quo now. It was illegal in 30 and illegal with a few exceptions in 16 others.
C.) Absent abortion, "poor women" tend not to have babies they can't afford.

Shocking, I know.