CDZ A Moderate Maifesto

[theDoctorisIn]

There is no one alive who "views humans strictly as members of groups rather than individuals".

Yeah, just imagine if any of our college proffessors were to question if their nonwhite children could be friends with white children due to their race.....oh, wait.

Do you think that particular college professor disbelieves that he himself is an individual?

Of course he thinks he is an individual, but I doubt that he sees his individuality as more important than his group identity.

If one of my kids had told me he thought he couldnt associate with black kids I would have grounded him for life.

Or, to put it a different way, he may see his group identity as an important part of his individual identity.

But that doesn't mean he has no individual identity - nor does it mean that he "views human strictly as members of groups rather than individuals".

 

[Natural Citizen]

Were Mussolinni to say "I think mathematics is great and science the foundation of modern life.' to which I isaid something similar, then I guess I am mirroring Mussolinit as well?


Just because Mussolini says something does not make it wrong or fascist ipso facto.

Mussolini was right about MOST of the things he believed in, the critical errors he believed in were all the critical difference that made him a deeply flawed leader and totalitarian.

You're spinning the terms of controversy here. Why?

 

[JimBowie1958]

You appear to think that ideology is a bad word. It's not.

Ideology is a substitute for independent thought.

It is the wimps way of 'sounding deep'.

It is canned thinking.

Whether you think that is a bad thing or a good thing I guess depends on other principles you hold to.

And yes, advocating for "free rational thought" (whatever the fuck that is) is an ideology.

Well at least you admit to not knowing what rational thought is, lol.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Were Mussolinni to say "I think mathematics is great and science the foundation of modern life.' to which I isaid something similar, then I guess I am mirroring Mussolinit as well?


Just because Mussolini says something does not make it wrong or fascist ipso facto.

Mussolini was right about MOST of the things he believed in, the critical errors he believed in were all the critical difference that made him a deeply flawed leader and totalitarian.

You're spinning the terms of controversy here. Why?

I am not trying to spin anything.

Xelor is pointing out that we have community obligations and rights, then you quote Mussolini in one of his brighter moments as though this somehow makes Xelor complicit with Mussolini.

It does no such thing.

that is all I am trying to point out.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Or, to put it a different way, he may see his group identity as an important part of his individual identity.
But that doesn't mean he has no individual identity - nor does it mean that he "views human strictly as members of groups rather than individuals".

One can put individuality vrs group identity on a gray scale, if you want, but then the critical threshold becomes the point at which the group identitarian justifies the penalizing of all the individuals of one group or rewarding them, due to the actions of these various groups in his nuanced view over centuries of conflict, exploitation and greed.

Italians do not owe me a dime for the centuries of slavery the held gauls in, nor do the Norman aristocrats of England either.

All that matters is what WE DO TODAY to each other.

There is no remedy for the affliction of those that dont get that without the use of Reason and free thought.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

You appear to think that ideology is a bad word. It's not.

Ideology is a substitute for independent thought.

It is the wimps way of 'sounding deep'.

It is canned thinking.

Whether you think that is a bad thing or a good thing I guess depends on other principles you hold to.

And yes, advocating for "free rational thought" (whatever the fuck that is) is an ideology.

Well at least you admit to not knowing what rational thought is, lol.

No.

In the context that I'm using the term, ideology is the framework of thought, not the absence of it.

Every thought you've ever had is filtered through the framework of your deeply held opinions and the cognitive framework that you've developed throughout your life. This is true for every human being on Earth.

That's what I mean when I say ideology.

 

[JimBowie1958]

In the context that I'm using the term, ideology is the framework of thought, not the absence of it.
Every thought you've ever had is filtered through the framework of your deeply held opinions and the cognitive framework that you've developed throughout your life. This is true for every human being on Earth.
That's what I mean when I say ideology.

That is an overly broad definition of the word, IMO.

By your meaning, some drooling moron that likes to hide under the sheets and pick his boogers and eats them has that as part of his ideology, lol.

An Ideology is "

a comprehensive set of normative beliefs, conscious and unconscious ideas, that an individual, group or society has.​

An ideology is narrower in scope than the ideas expressed in concepts such as worldview, imaginary and ontology.[1]

Political ideologies can be proposed by the dominant class of society such as the elite to all members of society as suggested in some Marxist and critical-theory accounts. In societies that distinguish between public and private life, every political or economic tendency entails ideology, whether or not it is propounded as an explicit system of thought."​

When people subjugate themselves to canned systems of thought that we refer to as ideologies, they are mentally castrating themselves, IMO.

But then I guess you would call my disdain for ideology to be a form of ideology as well, lol.

BTW, as much as I enjoy these discussions, I cannot help but laugh at my self and you other apes at how we do go on about, with blasts of air and noise and their symbolic forms as though we might find some magical spell that once uttered would roll back the veil across Reality. roflmao

All is vanity

 

[Natural Citizen]

Were Mussolinni to say "I think mathematics is great and science the foundation of modern life.' to which I isaid something similar, then I guess I am mirroring Mussolinit as well?


Just because Mussolini says something does not make it wrong or fascist ipso facto.

Mussolini was right about MOST of the things he believed in, the critical errors he believed in were all the critical difference that made him a deeply flawed leader and totalitarian.

You're spinning the terms of controversy here. Why?

I am not trying to spin anything.

Xelor is pointing out that we have community obligations and rights, then you quote Mussolini in one of his brighter moments as though this somehow makes Xelor complicit with Mussolini.

It does no such thing.

that is all I am trying to point out.

So, you're a Statist? Because Statism is precisely what your friend Xelor was echoig when he mirrored Mussolini's thoughts. And now you're agreeing with Mussolini's words as one of his brighter moments.

I'm coming around to the idea that you're purposely being intellectually dishonest here.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

In the context that I'm using the term, ideology is the framework of thought, not the absence of it.
Every thought you've ever had is filtered through the framework of your deeply held opinions and the cognitive framework that you've developed throughout your life. This is true for every human being on Earth.
That's what I mean when I say ideology.

That is an overly broad definition of the word, IMO.

By your meaning, some drooling moron that likes to hide under the sheets and pick his boogers and eats them has that as part of his ideology, lol.

An Ideology is "

a comprehensive set of normative beliefs, conscious and unconscious ideas, that an individual, group or society has.​

An ideology is narrower in scope than the ideas expressed in concepts such as worldview, imaginary and ontology.[1]

Political ideologies can be proposed by the dominant class of society such as the elite to all members of society as suggested in some Marxist and critical-theory accounts. In societies that distinguish between public and private life, every political or economic tendency entails ideology, whether or not it is propounded as an explicit system of thought."​

When people subjugate themselves to canned systems of thought that we refer to as ideologies, they are mentally castrating themselves, IMO.

But then I guess you would call my disdain for ideology to be a form of ideology as well, lol.

Now you're getting it!

In fact, "disdain for ideology" is essentially the basis for political postmodernist thought.

Which in itself is an ideology.

And round and round we go!

 

[JimBowie1958]

So, you're a Statist? Because Statism is precisely what your friend Xelor was echoig when he mirrored Mussolini's thoughts. And now you're agreeing with Mussolini's words as one of his brighter moments.

I'm coming around to the idea that you;re purposely being intellectually dishonest here.

I dont share your notion of what Statism is, I think.

To me, Statism is a political ideology that gives justification to expanding the scope and authority of the state without concern for the loss of individual freedom.

I am certainly not doing that by observing our communal bonds to each other.

Community does not equate to the State.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Now you're getting it!

In fact, "disdain for ideology" is essentially the basis for political postmodernist thought.

Which in itself is an ideology.

And round and round we go!

So if all systematic thought is ideology, what real meaning does the word have to bring distinctive meaning to ideology?

It becomes almost meaningless, a sort of linguistic Tautology.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Now you're getting it!

In fact, "disdain for ideology" is essentially the basis for political postmodernist thought.

Which in itself is an ideology.

And round and round we go!

So if all systematic thought is ideology, what real meaning does the word have to bring distinctive meaning to ideology?

It becomes almost meaningless, a sort of linguistic Tautology.

Yes, exactly.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Now you're getting it!

In fact, "disdain for ideology" is essentially the basis for political postmodernist thought.

Which in itself is an ideology.

And round and round we go!

So if all systematic thought is ideology, what real meaning does the word have to bring distinctive meaning to ideology?

It becomes almost meaningless, a sort of linguistic Tautology.

Yes, exactly.

OK, so you are having fun with me.

I get it, lol.

*sigh*

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Now you're getting it!

In fact, "disdain for ideology" is essentially the basis for political postmodernist thought.

Which in itself is an ideology.

And round and round we go!

So if all systematic thought is ideology, what real meaning does the word have to bring distinctive meaning to ideology?

It becomes almost meaningless, a sort of linguistic Tautology.

Yes, exactly.

OK, so you are having fun with me.

I get it, lol.

*sigh*

No, I'm not having fun with you.

You have just stumbled upon exactly what my point is.

The term is meaningless, in the sense that you're trying to use it.

 

[Natural Citizen]

To me, Statism is a political ideology that gives justification to expanding the scope and authority of the state without concern for the loss of individual freedom.

Precisely. Which were exactly the words echoed by Mussolini and Xelor mirror image. Which I presented previously in the thread. And which you agree was one of Mussolini's finest moments.

I am certainly not doing that by observing our communal bonds to each other.

I have no communal bond with you or anyone else here.

 

[JimBowie1958]

No, I'm not having fun with you.

You have just stumbled upon exactly what my point is.

The term is meaningless, in the sense that you're trying to use it.

I disagree.

A systematic expression of connected/interrelated opinions of various schools of thought, however precisely defined or not is an ideology and strikingly different from say the collection of opinions expressed at any bar on a Friday night after the local high school team loses.

Thinking for yourself requires some effort and not all people are willing to put in that work.

So they subscribe to canned ideological thinking.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I have no communal bond with you or anyone else here.

I can see why you feel that way, but no, you do have a communal bond with those who are under the same system of laws, live in the same locale or use the same publicly provided services.

Like it or not, you have never had the opportunity to refuse to sign the social compact.

You were born into it, so you might as well deal with it honestly and stop trying to fool yourself.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

No, I'm not having fun with you.

You have just stumbled upon exactly what my point is.

The term is meaningless, in the sense that you're trying to use it.

I disagree.

A systematic expression of connected/interrelated opinions of various schools of thought, however precisely defined or not is an ideology and strikingly different from say the collection of opinions expressed at any bar on a Friday night after the local high school team loses.

Thinking for yourself requires some effort and not all people are willing to put in that work.

So they subscribe to canned ideological thinking.

That's nothing more than a way to feel superior to people you disagree with.

 

[JimBowie1958]

So they subscribe to canned ideological thinking.

That's nothing more than a way to feel superior to people you disagree with.

Salesmen use canned sales pitches for a good reason; they work.

Canned ideologies are similar to religious dogma in that they are the expression of the collective experience and wisdom of those who have who have gone before us.

That I do not trust ideology to accurately reflect Reality does not mean I am superior unless having Aspergers makes me superior, lol.

I just dont trust it and never will.

Axioms may be self evident, but secondary principles drawn from them are suspect and tertiary principles are worthless unless grounded directly on observable experience and facts.

IMO of course.

I am among the most deeply flawed people here and do not consider myself superior to anyone, so if I came across that way, well it was just inferior word smithing on my part.

But I do trust in the continued evolution of ideas to eventually get Reality right or close enough so that the differences are humanly imperceptable.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

So they subscribe to canned ideological thinking.

That's nothing more than a way to feel superior to people you disagree with.

Salesmen use canned sales pitches for a good reason; they work.

Canned ideologies are similar to religious dogma in that they are the expression of the collective experience and wisdom of who have who have gone before us.

That I do not trust ideology to accurately reflect Reality does not mean I am superior unless having Aspergers makes me superior, lol.

I just dont trust it and never will.

Axioms may be self evident, but secondary principles drawn from them are suspect and tertiary principles are worthless unless grounded directly on observable experience and facts.

IMO of course.

I am among the most deeply flawed people here and do not consider myself superior to anyone, so if I came across that way, well it was just inferior word smithing on my part.

But I do trust in the continued evolution of ideas to eventually get Reality right or close enough so that the differences are humanly imperceptable.

I am not attacking your character, Jim. As much as we may disagree, I happen to like you quite a bit.

My point is this - when you dismiss the arguments of someone else as no more than "canned thought", you are using that as a rhetorical weapon. You are making their opinion inferior than your own, in your head, by assigning to it the premise that it is not "original", and therefore lesser than your opinion.