A lot of Atheist and agnostics just don't get it

[harmonica]

a lot of christians and believers just don't get it

Just because you prefer to be a sitting duck, it doesn't mean you will not get shot at.

there is no god
religion is man made fairytales
and you can't prove there is a god/etc
plain and simple

 

[diver52]

a lot of christians and believers just don't get it

Just because you prefer to be a sitting duck, it doesn't mean you will not get shot at.

there is no god
religion is man made fairytales
and you can't prove there is a god/etc
plain and simple

The statement "there is no god" is a positive assertion for which you have no proof. Plain and simple. This is a statement of pure belief asserted as knowledge. It's just your version of the fairy tale.

 

[harmonica]

a lot of christians and believers just don't get it

Just because you prefer to be a sitting duck, it doesn't mean you will not get shot at.

there is no god
religion is man made fairytales
and you can't prove there is a god/etc
plain and simple

The statement "there is no god" is a positive assertion for which you have no proof. Plain and simple. This is a statement of pure belief asserted as knowledge. It's just your version of the fairy tale.

fools fools ---hahahahhahahahahha
I see you just joined up
YOU people claim there is a god/etc....
YOU people HAVE to either prove it or it's just plain crap
.......it's like a court of law---the prosecutors CLAIM a crime has been committed so THEY have to prove it or the defendant is innocent

 

[diver52]

a lot of christians and believers just don't get it

Just because you prefer to be a sitting duck, it doesn't mean you will not get shot at.

there is no god
religion is man made fairytales
and you can't prove there is a god/etc
plain and simple

The statement "there is no god" is a positive assertion for which you have no proof. Plain and simple. This is a statement of pure belief asserted as knowledge. It's just your version of the fairy tale.

fools fools ---hahahahhahahahahha
I see you just joined up
YOU people claim there is a god/etc....
YOU people HAVE to either prove it or it's just plain crap
.......it's like a court of law---the prosecutors CLAIM a crime has been committed so THEY have to prove it or the defendant is innocent

I have made no claim at all. I have no idea if there is a god. I don't really care if there is a god. But you have made a claim. Can you support it or not? Because if you can't then it is just a fairy tale.

 

[harmonica]

a lot of christians and believers just don't get it

Just because you prefer to be a sitting duck, it doesn't mean you will not get shot at.

there is no god
religion is man made fairytales
and you can't prove there is a god/etc
plain and simple

The statement "there is no god" is a positive assertion for which you have no proof. Plain and simple. This is a statement of pure belief asserted as knowledge. It's just your version of the fairy tale.

fools fools ---hahahahhahahahahha
I see you just joined up
YOU people claim there is a god/etc....
YOU people HAVE to either prove it or it's just plain crap
.......it's like a court of law---the prosecutors CLAIM a crime has been committed so THEY have to prove it or the defendant is innocent

I have made no claim at all. I have no idea if there is a god. I don't really care if there is a god. But you have made a claim. Can you support it or not? Because if you can't then it is just a fairy tale.

I don't need to prove what is unproven hahahahhahahahahah
.....anyone that says there is a god has to prove it or guess what?? they are full of shit

 

[diver52]

Just because you prefer to be a sitting duck, it doesn't mean you will not get shot at.

there is no god
religion is man made fairytales
and you can't prove there is a god/etc
plain and simple

The statement "there is no god" is a positive assertion for which you have no proof. Plain and simple. This is a statement of pure belief asserted as knowledge. It's just your version of the fairy tale.

fools fools ---hahahahhahahahahha
I see you just joined up
YOU people claim there is a god/etc....
YOU people HAVE to either prove it or it's just plain crap
.......it's like a court of law---the prosecutors CLAIM a crime has been committed so THEY have to prove it or the defendant is innocent

I have made no claim at all. I have no idea if there is a god. I don't really care if there is a god. But you have made a claim. Can you support it or not? Because if you can't then it is just a fairy tale.

I don't need to prove what is unproven hahahahhahahahahah
.....anyone that says there is a god has to prove it or guess what?? they are full of shit

And you believe your rules don't apply to you. Interesting.

 

[harmonica]

there is no god
religion is man made fairytales
and you can't prove there is a god/etc
plain and simple

The statement "there is no god" is a positive assertion for which you have no proof. Plain and simple. This is a statement of pure belief asserted as knowledge. It's just your version of the fairy tale.

fools fools ---hahahahhahahahahha
I see you just joined up
YOU people claim there is a god/etc....
YOU people HAVE to either prove it or it's just plain crap
.......it's like a court of law---the prosecutors CLAIM a crime has been committed so THEY have to prove it or the defendant is innocent

I have made no claim at all. I have no idea if there is a god. I don't really care if there is a god. But you have made a claim. Can you support it or not? Because if you can't then it is just a fairy tale.

I don't need to prove what is unproven hahahahhahahahahah
.....anyone that says there is a god has to prove it or guess what?? they are full of shit

And you believe your rules don't apply to you. Interesting.

hahahhaha
you must not be able to understand common sense
....just like the bullshit MSM/USMB members/etc---if you don't have proof--it's bullshit
hahahahahha = you think we just believe it if someone says it???!!!!???
I can claim all kinds of crap:
2 white guys attacked me in Chicago
I flew to the moon
jesus served breakfast to me this morning
etc

 

[diver52]

The statement "there is no god" is a positive assertion for which you have no proof. Plain and simple. This is a statement of pure belief asserted as knowledge. It's just your version of the fairy tale.

fools fools ---hahahahhahahahahha
I see you just joined up
YOU people claim there is a god/etc....
YOU people HAVE to either prove it or it's just plain crap
.......it's like a court of law---the prosecutors CLAIM a crime has been committed so THEY have to prove it or the defendant is innocent

I have made no claim at all. I have no idea if there is a god. I don't really care if there is a god. But you have made a claim. Can you support it or not? Because if you can't then it is just a fairy tale.

I don't need to prove what is unproven hahahahhahahahahah
.....anyone that says there is a god has to prove it or guess what?? they are full of shit

And you believe your rules don't apply to you. Interesting.

hahahhaha
you must not be able to understand common sense
....just like the bullshit MSM/USMB members/etc---if you don't have proof--it's bullshit
hahahahahha = you think we just believe it if someone says it???!!!!???
I can claim all kinds of crap:
2 white guys attacked me in Chicago
I flew to the moon
jesus served breakfast to me this morning
etc

ok

 

[Meriweather]

I agree with your historical assessment. Jesus was a great teacher and died for it. But that does not go along with the notion that God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son or that the son died for our sins. That is basic Christian doctrine and it makes no sense unless God sent Jesus to die for our sins. I find no comfort in that thought. It is the classic case of a whipping boy - someone who takes the punishment for my actions. I find that inherently immoral.

Keep in mind that many--perhaps even most--do not teach Jesus as whipping boy. Adam and Eve were the example of how easily humans fall into sin (or missing the mark). We accept that sin (missing the ideal) is part of human existence. Along comes Jesus to serve as our example that we need not fall victim to sin, that living a sinless life is possible and we can choose God's will (as Jesus did in continuing to proclaim repentance for the forgiveness of sins) even though he was put to death for doing so. I do not know if all Christian denominations teach this, but in one religion class we were asked, "How many times has Jesus' life and teachings prevent you from falling into sin?" How many fewer sins have come into the world since people have had Jesus' teachings and example to follow?

We were also taught that while sins are forgiven, there are still consequences or byproducts of sinning that we must answer for.

I do a lot of reading and research of the Jewish faith since it is the root of Christianity. One Rabbi explained it with the metaphor of how goodness and light are so powerful--and the human body so weak--that that the human could not withstand the amount of goodness available. Even so, just a bones are often stronger at the break, so can we heal our brokenness by still seeking and embracing goodness.

 

[Meriweather]

I think you miss my point on hell. It doesn't matter if you say I choose to go to hell, God still created hell since God created all things. Which means if hell exists at all, then God clearly thought hell a good idea. Now, you can certainly say that it is not a place but that is not how it is described Revelations. If we are going to erase all that transpired in the last 2,000 years, that would include Catholic doctrine.

Hell would be the absence of goodness and love. Since God is pure goodness and love, then evil and hatred must exist outside that which is goodness and love. Some liken it to how darkness cannot exist in light. Neither can evil exist in goodness nor hatred in love.

As for Revelation: Revelation is apocalyptic literature, a form of literature very popular at the time. Some call it an extravagant form of symbolism, as as such, is quite unfamiliar to those of us in modern times. In other words, we should not read the Book of Revelation as a literal account. William Barclay wrote a wonderful Bible Study on explaining where all the symbolism in the Book of Revelation originated and what it means.

 

[Meriweather]

I am curious though. On what basis do you state that God is good? I find nothing in either the Old or New Testament to support that conclusion. Quite the contrary.

Both Old and New Testaments proclaim the goodness and love of God. The New Testament describes God as "Abba", meaning Father, or perhaps more accurately, Daddy.

I am fond of advising, First seek and find God--then read the Bible. I will not go into details, but I have experienced the love of God, which has given me a very strong belief that God loves everyone. Since that came at a young age, like so many I wondered why so many accounts of God's actions seem quite contrary to love and goodness. How could Biblical authors get so much wrong?

That had me delving into the history and cultures of Biblical times--and Rabbinical teachings. First, the original authors and audiences were not questioning the goodness and love of God. That was a given. Their focus was on the failure of humans to love and to be good. God's actions were seen as necessary for justice; and also pointed out how God's mercy was ever present in His justice.

The other subject I studied was science, because I believe science, as much or perhaps more so than Scripture, can also be a tremendous revelation about God.

The problem with hearing Bible stories as children is that children have an innate--and great--sense of fairness. If, as children, we are not taught what the original authors intended us to learn, as children we are going to jump to our own conclusions. Further, by the time we are teens, we have heard Bible stories so often, many of us are convinced we are well versed in the Bible and religion when nothing can be further from the truth.

Saint Theresa of Avila, author of the Interior Castle, noted that even most of us who faithfully attend religious services and pray regularly, only reach the entry way, or perhaps the first story, of that seven story Interior Castle. Getting people that far takes great effort--and people have to expend even greater effort in living their lives without also finding times to explore all the rooms on the first floor of the castle, let alone all the rooms on the other six floors. However, being aware that they are there for us can be of great encouragement and help to us.

Going back to the main point--and the most vital: Seek and find God, and the Bible takes on a whole new meaning than it does to a child who is just beginning to learn and understand.

 

[diver52]

I agree with your historical assessment. Jesus was a great teacher and died for it. But that does not go along with the notion that God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son or that the son died for our sins. That is basic Christian doctrine and it makes no sense unless God sent Jesus to die for our sins. I find no comfort in that thought. It is the classic case of a whipping boy - someone who takes the punishment for my actions. I find that inherently immoral.

Keep in mind that many--perhaps even most--do not teach Jesus as whipping boy. Adam and Eve were the example of how easily humans fall into sin (or missing the mark). We accept that sin (missing the ideal) is part of human existence. Along comes Jesus to serve as our example that we need not fall victim to sin, that living a sinless life is possible and we can choose God's will (as Jesus did in continuing to proclaim repentance for the forgiveness of sins) even though he was put to death for doing so. I do not know if all Christian denominations teach this, but in one religion class we were asked, "How many times has Jesus' life and teachings prevent you from falling into sin?" How many fewer sins have come into the world since people have had Jesus' teachings and example to follow?

We were also taught that while sins are forgiven, there are still consequences or byproducts of sinning that we must answer for.

I do a lot of reading and research of the Jewish faith since it is the root of Christianity. One Rabbi explained it with the metaphor of how goodness and light are so powerful--and the human body so weak--that that the human could not withstand the amount of goodness available. Even so, just a bones are often stronger at the break, so can we heal our brokenness by still seeking and embracing goodness.

I understand Jesus is not taught as a whipping boy, but that that does not change it. To die for our sins is being a whipping boy whether it is taught that way or not.

Adam and Eve is not an example of how humans fall into sin. It is an example of a trap set by a bad parent. They were innocent, like children. Yet God set the tree of life in front of them like setting candy in front of a young child. Then blaming the child when they acted like a child. That is the fault of the parent, not the child. The story does not put God in a good light at all.

This keeps repeating itself throughout the Bible. The stories of Abraham, Sodom, Job, Noah and so on show a God petty, blood thirsty and uncaring of human suffering. Ultimately culminating in an act of human sacrifice that we are to accept or be damned. If that is my choice, I choose damnation as a far cleaner alternative.

As I said, I really don't get how you can accept this and take comfort from it.

One of my favorite authors, Terry Pratchett, once wrote that if there is such a thing as a creator, then it is each of our responsibility to become its moral superior. In the case of the God of the Bible, that is a very low bar.

 

[diver52]

I am curious though. On what basis do you state that God is good? I find nothing in either the Old or New Testament to support that conclusion. Quite the contrary.

Both Old and New Testaments proclaim the goodness and love of God. The New Testament describes God as "Abba", meaning Father, or perhaps more accurately, Daddy.

I am fond of advising, First seek and find God--then read the Bible. I will not go into details, but I have experienced the love of God, which has given me a very strong belief that God loves everyone. Since that came at a young age, like so many I wondered why so many accounts of God's actions seem quite contrary to love and goodness. How could Biblical authors get so much wrong?

That had me delving into the history and cultures of Biblical times--and Rabbinical teachings. First, the original authors and audiences were not questioning the goodness and love of God. That was a given. Their focus was on the failure of humans to love and to be good. God's actions were seen as necessary for justice; and also pointed out how God's mercy was ever present in His justice.

The other subject I studied was science, because I believe science, as much or perhaps more so than Scripture, can also be a tremendous revelation about God.

The problem with hearing Bible stories as children is that children have an innate--and great--sense of fairness. If, as children, we are not taught what the original authors intended us to learn, as children we are going to jump to our own conclusions. Further, by the time we are teens, we have heard Bible stories so often, many of us are convinced we are well versed in the Bible and religion when nothing can be further from the truth.

Saint Theresa of Avila, author of the Interior Castle, noted that even most of us who faithfully attend religious services and pray regularly, only reach the entry way, or perhaps the first story, of that seven story Interior Castle. Getting people that far takes great effort--and people have to expend even greater effort in living their lives without also finding times to explore all the rooms on the first floor of the castle, let alone all the rooms on the other six floors. However, being aware that they are there for us can be of great encouragement and help to us.

Going back to the main point--and the most vital: Seek and find God, and the Bible takes on a whole new meaning than it does to a child who is just beginning to learn and understand.

What I notice here is while you say God is good, you provide not a single reference in the Bible where God is actually being good. I don't blame you since I never found one myself.

In any case, I am not trying to dissuade you from your beliefs. If you find comfort in them I truly am happy for you. For me, it is incomprehensible and I am not at all unhappy with it. I am just sharing my point of view with you, which in no way diminishes your point of view.

 

[diver52]

I think you miss my point on hell. It doesn't matter if you say I choose to go to hell, God still created hell since God created all things. Which means if hell exists at all, then God clearly thought hell a good idea. Now, you can certainly say that it is not a place but that is not how it is described Revelations. If we are going to erase all that transpired in the last 2,000 years, that would include Catholic doctrine.

Hell would be the absence of goodness and love. Since God is pure goodness and love, then evil and hatred must exist outside that which is goodness and love. Some liken it to how darkness cannot exist in light. Neither can evil exist in goodness nor hatred in love.

As for Revelation: Revelation is apocalyptic literature, a form of literature very popular at the time. Some call it an extravagant form of symbolism, as as such, is quite unfamiliar to those of us in modern times. In other words, we should not read the Book of Revelation as a literal account. William Barclay wrote a wonderful Bible Study on explaining where all the symbolism in the Book of Revelation originated and what it means.

As far as I can see, God is the absence of goodness and love.

 

[Meriweather]

I am just sharing my point of view with you, which in no way diminishes your point of view.

We are meeting on the common ground of simply sharing our experiences and points of view. I appreciate yours.

 

[Meriweather]

As far as I can see, God is the absence of goodness and love.

When you meet Him, you will be amazed. As will I continue to be amazed.

 

[Meriweather]

As I said, I really don't get how you can accept this and take comfort from it.

It is not a matter of comfort, it is a matter of understanding the point(s) the original authors were passing on. To understand, one must let go of modern English and modern culture and study ancient languages and ancient cultures.

 

[anotherlife]

So agnostics already know that the devil exists.

Well that's utter nonsense...

Why? Don't they teach this agnosticism in schools to children, in order to subjugate them to the devil faster?

No, and if you believe that, you are insane.

But whilst evidence of God is easy to reject, evidence of the devil is high profile. So high, that there are even movies about it, most notably the Manchurian Candidate, or the well published mind altering techniques in the science of psychiatry and interrogation handbooks.

 

[anotherlife]

So agnostics already know that the devil exists.

Well that's utter nonsense...

Why? Don't they teach this agnosticism in schools to children, in order to subjugate them to the devil faster?

I don't know what you are smoking, but I suggest that you avoid the paranoids who have been selling it to you.

Ok, but if you face danger of anything and someone tells you that there is no danger, then what do you say when you get hurt?

 

[anotherlife]

Agnostics don't assume the existence of God. But do they assume the existence of Satan?

No.

Even contrary to well established physical proofs of it in therapies as well as prisons, and schools?