507,533 Signatures Collected As Of Today

[Bern80]

I wasn't claiming that the public sector was a free market. The original statement I made, that you responded to, was about private-sector pay and benefits. I alleged that what we really should be asking is not why public sector employees have it so cushy, but rather why private sector employees DON'T. (Which relates directly, in fact, to the decline of private-sector unions, while they remain strong in the public sector.) That's when you talked about a "free market" being better in terms of setting wages and benefits, and why I asked you that question.

The answer doesn't change based on how you ask the question. To put it simply;

Q: Why does the public sector employee have it so cushy compared to the private sector employee?
A: Because the public labor market does not operate in a free market

Q: Why does the private sector have it so tough and the public sector is doing so well?
A: Because the public labor market does not operate in a free market

If you want to break it down to the most simple concept as to why the public sector makes more than the private, the simple difference is CHOICE. We, as individuals, through our spending, are what provide other people their income. In the private sector we essentially have choice in how much income someone else is going to make, because we have choice in what we purchase. In the public sector we do not have choice in what public employee makes. Their income is not dependent on our choice to consume a product or service. Everyone has their money taken from them through no choice of their own through taxes to provide the income for those individuals. Obviously the earning potential of one who can have what they earn ultimately taken from people is going to be higher than an individual who's income is dependent on people who can choose.

That's not really a difference between public and private employment, though, except for really small businesses that have a single owner who runs everything. The person making the decision in a larger business is spending the company's money, not his own.

Not true. Ultiamtely the top of any business, large or small decides what everyone is going to make. Middle managers have some leeway of course, but if they start over compensating beyond what the market will allow or is reasonable for that individual, you can bet he's going to hear about it from someone above him. Plus, the person making the decision knows his salary is also dependent on what is coming in.

 

[Bern80]

The point that this is largely a problem due to the recession isn't something you can dismiss.

My comment about the Articles of Confederation is that I believe that's what the cons are seeking. They say that they loooovee the Constitution, but it established a federal government. What they want is fifty separate countries, where they can be free of pesky modern ideas.

Huh? How exactly is it that modern ideas can only be found in centralized governments? It isn't that conservatives want 50 separate countries. We want the power of the fed to be limited, like it's limited in the constitution.

Please elaborate. Thanks.

You said conservatives don't want a federal government and want 50 individual countries so we don't have to worry about modern ideas. That is a bit hard to elaborate on because it's a statement chalk full of false statements and false premises.

Conservatives don't want federal gov't of any type? Come on dude, you seem semi-objective most of the time so you know that's not true.

Don't have to worry about modern ideas? Look at the premise you set up. You've essentially said that ONLY a centralized government can have modern ideas that will move the country forward and that without the federal government's 'modern ideas' the 50 states would somehow stagnate without federal guidance. What logical reasoning is there behind that?

Next you have the issue of what constitutes a 'modern idea'. That of course is going to be subject to considerable bias and one's own opinion as to what constitutes a modern 'good' idea.

 

[Amelia]

I'm wondering about some documentation of that.

Thanks.

Documentation for which part?

That public employees had to pay money to unions even if they chose not to join? Or that it was taken out of their paychecks directly? Or that the union which got the cut from the teachers' paycheck was WEAC? Or that it has changed now?

For all of that, Amelia.

Thanks.

Sorry. No.

I've been living with what is happening in Wisconsin and I have found it exhausting.

To hear that people have been talking about Wisconsin here on this board for all these months - and pronouncing strong opinions about what I've been living - without knowing many things which I consider basic facts of the argument ...



well ....


I'm just too worn out to go find links for what I think of as basic fact. I'm kinda frustrated by people expressing strong feelings about my state without knowing certain things about the situation which led to Walker's actions or the basic elements of the legislation.



This subject is real for me. And stressful.


The discussions on the internet about it by people who don't know what we're dealing with in Wisconsin are obviously disconnected from my experience.



I really am fatigued.

We have a big fight ahead of us. I'm going to rest now and enjoy Christmas and blow off some steam in the flame zone.

( :

 

[Clementine]

Nonsense, Clementine. Yes, you can check on the legitimacy of the signers. That's exactly what they're going to do. If they can't verify a signature, it doesn't count.

Who is going to do the checking? People don't put phone numbers or other personal information. As long as a name matches an address and it's in the phone book, they'll call it good. I'd say publish the list and if people see their names and didn't sign, they should call, like they did in another case-

Election Fraud Investigation: Did Fake Signatures Get Obama on Primary Ballot?
Election Fraud Investigation: Did Fake Signatures Get Obama on Primary Ballot? | Fox News Insider

 

[mosten11]

To give Scottie Walker his walking papers.

Out of a total of 94% of the 540,000 needed. Their internal goal is 740,000 or thereabouts.

It's a wrap folks...Scottie's TOAST!!!



Source: The Wisconsin Democratic Party

]

Even if what I am reading in this thread is true about duplicated names and signatures, who cares? The guy is an idiot anyways...

 

[Dragon]

The answer doesn't change based on how you ask the question. To put it simply;

Q: Why does the public sector employee have it so cushy compared to the private sector employee?
A: Because the public labor market does not operate in a free market

Q: Why does the private sector have it so tough and the public sector is doing so well?
A: Because the public labor market does not operate in a free market

Oh, I see. Well, the problem is that that's not the reason. The reason, and it's quite obvious, really, is that the public sector is still unionized, while unions have generally lost power in the private sector. Thus, public-sector employees are bargaining collectively, while private-sector employees (or most of them) are bargaining as individuals. This naturally tilts power into the hands of employers in the private sector compared to the public sector, which has dire consequences as far as workers are concerned.

File:Illegal Union Firing 1952 - 2007.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The percentage of union elections that includes at least one illegal firing has dramatically increased. This chart probably understates by how much it's increased, since the only stats represented here are employers who got caught doing it. But even so, you can see that the practice of suppressing union formation by illegal means increase by a factor of six between the Eisenhower years (when unions were strongest in our history) and the Bush years. We have no stats on the Obama administration yet. Democrats since 1977 have generally been better than Republicans, but still bad in enforcing labor rights. (14% under Carter and 16% under Clinton compared to a peak of 31% under Reagan, 25-24% under the elder Bush and 26% under the younger Bush. But this isn't a partisan problem really; it was 4% under Eisenhower, which means that Clinton's enforcement was four times as bad as Ike's.)

Government agencies, however, tend not to use methods like this. They are more tightly controlled by law, and lack the for-profit motivations to keep wages down. It's easier for that reason to successfully form unions in the public sector. If labor law was vigorously enforced once more, it would become easier again to form unions in the private sector, union strength would increase, and wages would be driven up.

So unless you're using the phrase "free market" to mean a lack of unions, which is what I originally suggested, there's a much more precise, logical, and obvious explanation.

 

[SAT2]

You said conservatives don't want a federal government and want 50 individual countries so we don't have to worry about modern ideas. That is a bit hard to elaborate on because it's a statement chalk full of false statements and false premises.

Conservatives don't want federal gov't of any type? Come on dude, you seem semi-objective most of the time so you know that's not true.

Don't have to worry about modern ideas? Look at the premise you set up. You've essentially said that ONLY a centralized government can have modern ideas that will move the country forward and that without the federal government's 'modern ideas' the 50 states would somehow stagnate without federal guidance. What logical reasoning is there behind that?

Next you have the issue of what constitutes a 'modern idea'. That of course is going to be subject to considerable bias and one's own opinion as to what constitutes a modern 'good' idea.

OK, they want a federal government for defense purposes, and not for anything else.

I haven't said that only a federal government can have modern ideas-I've said that the GOP is full of individuals in flight from modernity, and that their refuge is to seek state control. While this might not be at all true of you personally, I have seen plenty of evidence of it over the last three decades, and it came to a head in 2009, after Obama took office, in the form continued demands for "states' rights", an end to the direct election of Senators, bills proposing that states have the right to mint their own coins, extremist push back against Roe v. Wade, and demands to teach creationism alongside evolution. The right has seen that they cannot get the federal government to go back in time, and they clearly feel that they will have better luck with 50 loosely confederated states.

Sorry. No.

I've been living with what is happening in Wisconsin and I have found it exhausting.

To hear that people have been talking about Wisconsin here on this board for all these months - and pronouncing strong opinions about what I've been living - without knowing many things which I consider basic facts of the argument ...

well ....

I'm just too worn out to go find links for what I think of as basic fact. I'm kinda frustrated by people expressing strong feelings about my state without knowing certain things about the situation which led to Walker's actions or the basic elements of the legislation.

This subject is real for me. And stressful.

The discussions on the internet about it by people who don't know what we're dealing with in Wisconsin are obviously disconnected from my experience.

I really am fatigued.

We have a big fight ahead of us. I'm going to rest now and enjoy Christmas and blow off some steam in the flame zone. ( :

I can certainly understand your fatigue, but you're putting out a strong statement and not able to back it up, and I'm not finding any support for what you claim-and I did try. You claim that Wisconsin teachers had mandatory dues deducted from their paychecks. If you find a link to support that, please post it.

Who is going to do the checking? People don't put phone numbers or other personal information. As long as a name matches an address and it's in the phone book, they'll call it good. I'd say publish the list and if people see their names and didn't sign, they should call, like they did in another case-

More obstructionism is your answer, huh?

Seriously, Clementine, not only is the state well equipped to validate the signatures, the Republican party is sure to challenge questionable signatures.

Government Accountability Board | STATE OF WISCONSIN

Election Fraud Investigation: Did Fake Signatures Get Obama on Primary Ballot?
Election Fraud Investigation: Did Fake Signatures Get Obama on Primary Ballot? | Fox News Insider

For pity's sake.

 

[Amelia]

I can certainly understand your fatigue, but you're putting out a strong statement and not able to back it up, and I'm not finding any support for what you claim-and I did try. You claim that Wisconsin teachers had mandatory dues deducted from their paychecks. If you find a link to support that, please post it.

I didn't use the word "dues". If you didn't join the union the money was deducted under the term "fair share".



The end of automatic deductions was made a big deal out of. I'm finding quite a few articles on Google, but there are almost too many. I want to find one which a liberal would consider proof, and for some reason I don't think George Will or Rich Lowry, say, would cut it! ( :


It was a BIG issue. I promise. But it's really hard to find primary Wisconsin documents from all the noise on Google.


Hmmm ... if I add jsonline to my search terms I come up with a little better articles.

Here's one talking about adjustments unions are making:

Labor losses prompt a change in strategy - JSOnline.mobi

And union leaders are scrambling to keep dues-paying members now that the government no longer automatically deducts union dues from paychecks.

Nearly half of all unionized employees in the state are affiliated with two public-sector unions, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, and the Wisconsin Education Association Council.

With the loss of automatic dues checkoff, both unions are expected to lose membership.

Here's one which mentions that Milwaukee teachers who don't choose unions still have to pay fair share because of Milwaukee county extended their contract before Walker's law went into effect:

In Milwaukee Public Schools, where teachers are operating under an extended contract, most Milwaukee Teachers Education Association members pay about $1,000 per year in dues. Teachers who decline membership still have to pay a $700 "fair share" payment for contract enforcement and bargaining.

WEAC issues layoff notices for 40% of staff - JSOnline





I need to remember to include "jsonline" in my future searches. That could save a lot of frustration. It's not the only Wisconsin news outlet I'd want to consider, but looks like it's good for a QUAD search.

 

[SAT2]

Thank you.

The first article refers to the state's refusal to deduct the dues of members who want their dues deducted, not to any involuntary contributions.

The second does back up what you're saying, for that one district, teachers do pay into a fund to help pay for negotiators.

 

[Amelia]

Thank you.

The first article refers to the state's refusal to deduct the dues of members who want their dues deducted, not to any involuntary contributions.

The second does back up what you're saying, for that one district, teachers do pay into a fund to help pay for negotiators.

As I said, it is difficult to find good links in the noise.

It was a BIG issue in the first half of the year. Might not think it would be so hard to find the information. But there are a LOT of people talking about Wisconsin unions without getting into details. Hard to cut through it all.

 

[SAT2]

Well, I'm proud of your state's teachers. They fought back against a multistate Republican strategy against working people, and got nationwide attention in the process. From the Arab Spring, to Wisconsin, to OWS, it's been a year of resurgence.

 

[Chris]

Well, I'm proud of your state's teachers. They fought back against a multistate Republican strategy against working people, and got nationwide attention in the process. From the Arab Spring, to Wisconsin, to OWS, it's been a year of resurgence.

The withered hand of the GOP is being wrenched from the levers of power.

Thank God.

 

[Chris]

Setting the stage for what could be a historic gubernatorial recall election, a group trying to oust Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says it has collected nearly enough signatures to force a vote on the Republican leader.

United Wisconsin said Thursday it has gathered signatures from 507,533 Wisconsinites, about 33,000 fewer than needed. The group wants to have 720,277 signatures by the Jan. 17 deadline to ensure it has enough valid names.

"The response has been really breathtaking and is a testament to the anger people have about what Walker has done to our state," said Meagan Mahaffey, the group's executive director.

More than 25,000 volunteers are fanning out, from the St. Croix River Valley to Beloit, to gather the remaining signatures, collecting names at a rate of about 18,000 a day, organizers say.

Walker recall petition gains ground in Wis. | StarTribune.com

 

[MarcATL]

Setting the stage for what could be a historic gubernatorial recall election, a group trying to oust Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says it has collected nearly enough signatures to force a vote on the Republican leader.

United Wisconsin said Thursday it has gathered signatures from 507,533 Wisconsinites, about 33,000 fewer than needed. The group wants to have 720,277 signatures by the Jan. 17 deadline to ensure it has enough valid names.

"The response has been really breathtaking and is a testament to the anger people have about what Walker has done to our state," said Meagan Mahaffey, the group's executive director.

More than 25,000 volunteers are fanning out, from the St. Croix River Valley to Beloit, to gather the remaining signatures, collecting names at a rate of about 18,000 a day, organizers say.

Walker recall petition gains ground in Wis. | StarTribune.com

And that's from a LOCAL publication right?

*while looking at Amelia*

 

[Mr.Nick]

To give Scottie Walker his walking papers.

Out of a total of 94% of the 540,000 needed. Their internal goal is 740,000 or thereabouts.

It's a wrap folks...Scottie's TOAST!!!



Source: The Wisconsin Democratic Party

Scott Walker Recall Effort Collected 507,000 Signatures in a Month | Mother Jones

Validate them now..



5 more months, then is shot back down to 200,000 votes..

I'm from northern Illinois and I can tell you that at least half those votes are fraudulent..

Allegedly they had 150,000 after they hit Milwaukee AND Madison and now they have 500,000..

 

[JakeStarkey]

To give Scottie Walker his walking papers.

Out of a total of 94% of the 540,000 needed. Their internal goal is 740,000 or thereabouts.

It's a wrap folks...Scottie's TOAST!!!



Source: The Wisconsin Democratic Party

Scott Walker Recall Effort Collected 507,000 Signatures in a Month | Mother Jones

Validate them now.. 5 more months, then is shot back down to 200,000 votes.. I'm from northern Illinois and I can tell you that at least half those votes are fraudulent.. Allegedly they had 150,000 after they hit Milwaukee AND Madison and now they have 500,000..

Validate? He has to validate who he is by reading in the mirror the feeding instructions tatooed on his forehead. I wonder if petitions are ever offered at the institution where he has been placed.

 

[Mr.Nick]

To give Scottie Walker his walking papers.

Out of a total of 94% of the 540,000 needed. Their internal goal is 740,000 or thereabouts.

It's a wrap folks...Scottie's TOAST!!!



Source: The Wisconsin Democratic Party

Scott Walker Recall Effort Collected 507,000 Signatures in a Month | Mother Jones

Validate them now.. 5 more months, then is shot back down to 200,000 votes.. I'm from northern Illinois and I can tell you that at least half those votes are fraudulent.. Allegedly they had 150,000 after they hit Milwaukee AND Madison and now they have 500,000..

Validate? He has to validate who he is by reading in the mirror the feeding instructions tatooed on his forehead. I wonder if petitions are ever offered at the institution where he has been placed.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Maybe private sector contractors should "occupy" union equipment when they need it.. Like a bulldozer for instance????

Since you can occupy anything you want these days???

 

[Mr.Nick]

How about I just walk into a school and "occupy" a 3rd grade classroom and teach them about progressive liberalism and classical liberalism and maybe throw in some Ayn Rand??

WTF....

 

[JakeStarkey]

How about I just walk into a school and "occupy" a 3rd grade classroom and teach them about progressive liberalism and classical liberalism and maybe throw in some Ayn Rand?? WTF....

Go get some coffee. That is simply loony. Classical liberalism, progressive right wing and left wing reform efforts (of which AR is on the right) has always been part of school studies.