Zone1 Without God Who Or What Decides What Moral Law Is?

[expat_panama]

With or without God the answer is the same. We as a society determine what is right and what is wrong. Religion merely reflects and codifies it. Look at the moral code of the ancient Hebrews, Medieval Christians, and Western Culture today. We arguably live under the same God but can hardly be said to share the same morality.

granted that humanity matures and becomes clearer, but the morality stays the same. It is wrong to murder, to steal, to lie about others. The details have to change but the standard is the same.

 

[The Duke]

granted that humanity matures and becomes clearer, but the morality stays the same. It is wrong to murder, to steal, to lie about others. The details have to change but the standard is the same.

Standards ingrained into the workings of the world.

 

[Esdraelon]

Or you know . . . you could keep chalking it all up to "It's God's will" and continue to sit back and watch it all burn.

You seem rather angry and resentful. You made my point for me.
To discount a Creator from human existence is to claim that humans can alone create a moral world. We've existed on this rock for millions of years and our current level of evolution has taken us to heretofore unknown heights of science and technology.

An honest person will admit that the situation we see unfolding in Ukraine today PROVES that humans simply are not capable of reaching a level of "morality" where we will become more interested in loving and caring for others than in indulging in our own selfishness and pettiness.

My personal belief is that there IS a Creator God and that He allows the misery and suffering so that a day will come when we will be at the brink, the very edge, of annihilating ourselves and all other life from this rock.
At that point, when roughly 2/3 of all life has already died due to the latest of our wars, famine, disease, and other calamities, He will return, crush those humans who are indulging in their lusts and hate, and finally show the remnant that the ONLY hope for our species is to follow the laws He created when He created US...

 

[BreezeWood]

You seem rather angry and resentful. You made my point for me.
To discount a Creator from human existence is to claim that humans can alone create a moral world. We've existed on this rock for millions of years and our current level of evolution has taken us to heretofore unknown heights of science and technology.

An honest person will admit that the situation we see unfolding in Ukraine today PROVES that humans simply are not capable of reaching a level of "morality" where we will become more interested in loving and caring for others than in indulging in our own selfishness and pettiness.

My personal belief is that there IS a Creator God and that He allows the misery and suffering so that a day will come when we will be at the brink, the very edge, of annihilating ourselves and all other life from this rock.
At that point, when roughly 2/3 of all life has already died due to the latest of our wars, famine, disease, and other calamities, He will return, crush those humans who are indulging in their lusts and hate, and finally show the remnant that the ONLY hope for our species is to follow the laws He created when He created US...

At that point, when roughly 2/3 of all life has already died due to the latest of our wars, famine, disease, and other calamities, He will return ... and finally show the remnant -

you have no idea what you are talking about - in reference to the desert religions ... "My personal belief is ..."

You seem rather angry and resentful. You made my point for me.

- there's not a christian on planet earth that hasn't used their all time worn out self congratulating platitude to pronounce themselves the undisputed winner for all times. esd.

the heavens made it perfectly clear - you had better fall on your sward for the cause than expect the heavens to save humanity a second time and be happy about it.

- of course for a sinner there's no reason for them - to save them - anyway.

 

[alang1216]

granted that humanity matures and becomes clearer, but the morality stays the same. It is wrong to murder, to steal, to lie about others. The details have to change but the standard is the same.

Agreed. But every human culture has that same moral code, just different definitions, regardless of their view of God or gods. The Aztecs had a similar moral code before they'd ever heard of Yahweh or Jesus or Ahura Mazda.

 

[ding]

With or without God the answer is the same. We as a society determine what is right and what is wrong. Religion merely reflects and codifies it. Look at the moral code of the ancient Hebrews, Medieval Christians, and Western Culture today. We arguably live under the same God but can hardly be said to share the same morality.

So we as a society could determine that it was moral to own slaves? And that would make it moral?

 

[expat_panama]

Standards ingrained into the workings of the world.

Agreed, & I see these standards as being apart from people --constant from the beginning of the universe.

 

[nomadic5]

Aren’t people capable of determining right or wrong on their own?

absolutely NOT

We see what's happening in the US (as proof of this)

The Gosnell abortionist story tells us exactly what is morally wrong with the US

Sicko liberals let that beast get away with murder literally just so as to propagate the notion that women should always, always always have the means to murder their children

 

[nomadic5]

Those who do not fear God and believe their power is absolute have been FAR less forgiving than people of Faith. We believe in God given rights, Godless leaders believe they are God who bestow such rights (or otherwise).

couldn't have said it better myself.

And leftists know this, but pretend not to and go on spouting their lie that Christians are evil, yep, all of them, every single one. And the Catholic Church is evil, every single Catholic, every single generation...

ironic doesnt begin to say it

 

[expat_panama]

Agreed. But every human culture has that same moral code, just different definitions, regardless of their view of God or gods. The Aztecs had a similar moral code before they'd ever heard of Yahweh or Jesus or Ahura Mazda.

We may be running into a confusion between the form and the substance of religion.

I see denominations and sects as the present day FORM of religion but to me the substsnce of religion is a shared understanding of absolute moral standards along with a reverence for a caring reality.

Thats how I end up w/ morality coming from religion.

 

[nomadic5]

No, I disagree. Everyone is born with a conscience, but unfortunately some people screw it up to the point where it's almost completely nonexistent. I don't know if you're a Christian, but that's biblical... 1 Timothy 4:2 talks about how a conscience can be "seared" as with a hot iron.

I used to think everyone was born with a conscience but now I believe everyone is born with the ability to develop one, but if that development gets interfered with by evil forces, especially in the early years of one's life

society has problems

Maybe most people retain some vestige of a conscience (?) even after committing terrible crimes because all are created by God and in His image. But as you imply, they can screw that up and end up with no conscience at all. Looking at Biden's history, I say at one time he had one but he chose to ignore it

 

[BackAgain]

I’ve never believed that morality has to be premised on a religious belief.

 

[rightwinger]

absolutely NOT

We see what's happening in the US (as proof of this)

The Gosnell abortionist story tells us exactly what is morally wrong with the US

Sicko liberals let that beast get away with murder literally just so as to propagate the notion that women should always, always always have the means to murder their children

Gosnell broke the law and is in Prison

 

[nomadic5]

I’ve never believed that morality has to be premised on a religious belief.

It does.

Look at how even Christians are hesitant to be moral at times. Human nature is far more corrupt than most of us realize

 

[BackAgain]

It does.

Look at how even Christians are hesitant to be moral at times. Human nature is far more corrupt than most of us realize

No. It really doesn’t. Even by definition.

 

[alang1216]

So we as a society could determine that it was moral to own slaves? And that would make it moral?

Of course. Do you think Washington and Jefferson were immoral or criminal? In 1452, Pope Nicholas V charged Alfonso of Portugal with the Christian duty to enslave any non-Christian.

 

[alang1216]

We may be running into a confusion between the form and the substance of religion.

I see denominations and sects as the present day FORM of religion but to me the substsnce of religion is a shared understanding of absolute moral standards along with a reverence for a caring reality.

Thats how I end up w/ morality coming from religion.

I don't see absolute moral standards in the Western religions I'm familiar with. Do you think the morality of the OT is the same as the NT?

I also don't see much evidence for a caring deity. I can't square a loving and caring deity with one that punishes the innocent to punish the guilty.

 

[rightwinger]

I pity the religious who have no morality outside of their fear of God

 

[ding]

Of course. Do you think Washington and Jefferson were immoral or criminal? In 1452, Pope Nicholas V charged Alfonso of Portugal with the Christian duty to enslave any non-Christian.

No. Not of course. That’s dumb.

 

[expat_panama]

I don't see absolute moral standards in the Western religions I'm familiar with. Do you think the morality of the OT is the same as the NT?

If your not seeing it is a choice you're making then it's good that we all can make choices. If you're asking for info that I have for making the connection then you could consider that Jesus insisted (Matthew 5:17) that his intention was to fulfill the law and not abrogate it. Also consider the difference between the form of the law (various details and traditions on what working on the sabath meant) and the substance (a heartfelt reverence).

I also don't see much evidence for a caring deity. I can't square a loving and caring deity with one that punishes the innocent to punish the guilty.

There's an obstacle that I run into a lot in trying to connect to atheists when I hear "I don't believe in some clown in the sky playing w/ his penis and zapping us on earth." It's as if anyone did believe in The Great Clown. Is there a chance you'd be interested in how I understand this? If you would then you might be able to help fill out the parts of reality that I'm missing.