Will there be a rebellion within the Catholic Church?

[Roadrunner]

As long as they aren't converting cats, I'm cool with it.

Yea but dogs can go to heaven without praying the rosary or saying an Act of Contrition or anything. No cats allowed though...tough tuna.

Shit, this wacko pope has opened Heaven to the Manson Family.

What a flake.

 

[Meriweather]

this wacko pope has opened Heaven to the Manson Family.

What a flake.

If so, he must have also opened it to Gandhi!

More seriously, the Pope is simply acknowledging that heaven and the afterlife is the providence of God. It is God, not the Church who judges the hearts of the Manson Family. The Church doesn't get to decide if heaven is populated with animals as well as people.

Meanwhile, here on Earth, we proclaim the good news of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, of God's love, and that we may have life in the here and now--and have it more abundantly.

It could be some are mistaking humility for flakiness?

 

[ninja007]

Meri- of course I have visited Catholic websites and the Vatican site and looked at the RCC Catechism. The problem is that the RCC misinterprets scripture. Like ALL THE TIME. Its totally opposite of what Jesus taught. No purgatory, no real presence, no praying to the dead, no priesthood- you could not be more wrong.

 

[ninja007]

compare what the Bible says vs what the Catechism teaches. Look for yourself;



Catechism and the Mass

 

[indiajo]

The Catholic church is more of a political institution than a spiritual one. Since the days of Constantine this has been the case. In fact, Constantine was not even a Christian. He used the Christian faith as a means of creating his own little world empire, even though Jesus claimed that his kingdom was not of this world.

What followed next was horrific. The Inquisitions, the Crusades, the persecution of the Jews etc. Before this Christianity was growing by leaps and bounds even though they were routinely oppressed and thrown to the lions.

What you see with the Catholic church is the realization that leftists rule the world now. They rule the US, the rule Europe, they rule pretty much everything but Islamic countries. However, Islam and Marxism are both collectivist ideologies, and as such, tend to ally themselves together. In fact, I'm sure leftists would just love to start beheading Tea Party members and restricting their free speech.

1. The crusades were not horrific in the sense you mean it. Originally they did not derive out of the hybris of power, but of the simple requirement to stop Islam. And it was High Noon, almost too late.
The fact that they were religious wars has to be seen under the general mindset of the people at that time. Im am always dumbfounded by the stupid arrogance of people judging historic occurances through the blinders of today's do-gooder world view.

2. Marxism is not existing any more. Nowhere. North Korea is not marxist or communist, just a dictatorship without aristoctratic titles, Russia and China are today far mor capitalist than the USA.
If it existed, it would never, never ever ally with Islam. It seems that you Americans really have not much of an idea what is going on outside US. Afghanistan was governed by a communist system under the protection of the Soviet Union. Actually they had 150k troops there to defend this secular system against Muslim terrorists who were trained and armed by the USA.
Kabul, around 1970:

Iran. Former Persia. Well, you supported the installation of an evil Shah Reza Pahlevi to replace a socialist government lining up with the soviets. That finally led to the islamic revolution, in the aftermath the first thing Khomeini did was to execute about 100.000 communists who foolishly had supported the overthrow of the old regime.

Boy, no way Islam and Marxists coild be allies in eternity.

Let Karl Marx speak for himself:

Islam ostracizes the nation of the unbelievers and creates a state of permanent enemyship between the moslems and the unbelievers

The leftist who do are blatant idiots without any hstorical knowledge.

 

[Meriweather]

Meri- of course I have visited Catholic websites and the Vatican site and looked at the RCC Catechism. The problem is that the RCC misinterprets scripture. Like ALL THE TIME. Its totally opposite of what Jesus taught. No purgatory, no real presence, no praying to the dead, no priesthood- you could not be more wrong.

I've studied these "misinterpretations" of scripture and found that the Catholic Church indeed has kept to the original meaning and intent. I understand you favor the interpretations that evolved 1500 years later. I'll stick with the interpretations of the Apostles and the early Church--the interpretations the Catholic Church has always minded and kept in tact.

As I have already given you chapter and verse on Jesus himself talking about purgatory, true presence, the living Body of Christ, and the anointing/appointing of those to carry on his work, it would not be productive to do so again. In saying that the Church is wrong, you are claiming Jesus was wrong.

 

[Meriweather]

compare what the Bible says vs what the Catechism teaches. Look for yourself;

I am through following links. As you know, I have studied scripture, catechism, history, and the Mass. If you want to discuss a certain aspect you do not understand, then you must do so in your own words, instead of flinging non-Catholic links at me. They are a waste of time.

 

[hobelim]

Meri- of course I have visited Catholic websites and the Vatican site and looked at the RCC Catechism. The problem is that the RCC misinterprets scripture. Like ALL THE TIME. Its totally opposite of what Jesus taught. No purgatory, no real presence, no praying to the dead, no priesthood- you could not be more wrong.

I've studied these "misinterpretations" of scripture and found that the Catholic Church indeed has kept to the original meaning and intent. I understand you favor the interpretations that evolved 1500 years later. I'll stick with the interpretations of the Apostles and the early Church--the interpretations the Catholic Church has always minded and kept in tact.

As I have already given you chapter and verse on Jesus himself talking about purgatory, true presence, the living Body of Christ, and the anointing/appointing of those to carry on his work, it would not be productive to do so again. In saying that the Church is wrong, you are claiming Jesus was wrong.

A person could not be more despicable than to blame their idolatrous religious practices on Jesus..

What you claim that Jesus said and did is not supported by anything in scripture except according to the most ignorant superficial reading of the words that even Jesus himself said were spoken figuratively.

You perjure yourself in the name of God and desecrate the teachings of Jesus as an expression religious devotion. The words that came to Jesus from God like manna from heaven and figuratively became his flesh to be served and eaten, taught and learned is the actual body of Christ and his true presence can only be found in the body of this teaching. If his words/flesh/ teaching from God about the figurative nature of the words and hidden subjects of the law is not in you the eternal life promised for obedience to the law cannot be in you.


Everything your church teaches about Jesus has been perverted by roman superstitious archaic lore based on ignorance of Jewish thought, beliefs, and practices, and the reason the name of Jesus has been brought into disrepute among intelligent people.

Nice going..I'm sure that Jesus is very impressed with your love and devotion.

I am.

Its not a total catastrophe though, at least you may find comfort to know that the Jewish people have always been right to reject out of hand what your church claims about Jesus and everyone who was ever persecuted or killed by your beloved church (a vast multitude) has already received the reward of the righteous if the very book you claim is the word of God is true.

And to make things even more perfect, you have found peace in doing that which scripture promises results in death.

You have your reward already! Congratulations.

 

[Meriweather]

A person could not be more despicable than to blame their idolatrous religious practices on Jesus..

What you claim that Jesus said and did is not supported by anything in scripture except according to the most ignorant superficial reading of the words that even Jesus himself said were spoken figuratively.

You perjure yourself in the name of God and desecrate the teachings of Jesus as an expression religious devotion. The words that came to Jesus from God like manna from heaven and figuratively became his flesh to be served and eaten, taught and learned is the actual body of Christ and his true presence can only be found in the body of this teaching. If his words/flesh/ teaching from God about the figurative nature of the words and hidden subjects of the law is not in you the eternal life promised for obedience to the law cannot be in you.


Everything your church teaches about Jesus has been perverted by roman superstitious archaic lore based on ignorance of Jewish thought, beliefs, and practices, and the reason the name of Jesus has been brought into disrepute among intelligent people.

Nice going..I'm sure that Jesus is very impressed with your love and devotion.

I am.

Its not a total catastrophe though, at least you may find comfort to know that the Jewish people have always been right to reject out of hand what your church claims about Jesus and everyone who was ever persecuted or killed by your beloved church (a vast multitude) has already received the reward of the righteous if the very book you claim is the word of God is true.

And to make things even more perfect, you have found peace in doing that which scripture promises results in death.

You have your reward already! Congratulations.

I am truly sorry that Catholic sacraments cause you so much distress.

Catholics use the same matter, form, and intent taught by Christ, worshiping God with body, mind, and soul. Catholic sacraments are the visible signs of the invisible reality. We see Christ using these visible signs throughout his ministry: Water, bread, wine, breathing, laying on of hands, tongues of fire.

Apparently you feel you are at a higher evolution with worship solely with intent/mind. Someone once told me they don't even bother with prayer, because God knows what we need before we ask. That is their faith.

My relationship with God still works best with worship in body, mind, and soul. As long as I have a body, it's going to take part in worship, right along with mind and soul. I see no reason to dissect the body out of worship.

I think much of your distress stems from incorrectly thinking it is the symbols that are being worshiped, when truth is that worship is always directed towards the invisible reality. I sincerely hope this helps your peace of mind.

 

[hobelim]

Catholics use the same matter, form, and intent taught by Christ, worshiping God with body, mind, and soul. Catholic sacraments are the visible signs of the invisible reality. We see Christ using these visible signs throughout his ministry: Water, bread, wine, breathing, laying on of hands, tongues of fire.

I am afraid that you are mistaken. Eucharistic worship is not symbolic in any way. According to your own catechism the Eucharist becomes the body of Christ IN ACTUALITY, and is treated reverently as if it was a god that could give spiritual life to those who worship and eat it - on their knees - even though it was made by human hands, has no life, and is not God.

Apparently you feel you are at a higher evolution with worship solely with intent/mind. Someone once told me they don't even bother with prayer, because God knows what we need before we ask. That is their faith.

Sounds reasonable to me. I think that a person should first seek the kingdom of God and understand and conform to what he asks and then everything and then some will be provided. If you do not do that first, praying for this or that is bound to fall on deaf ears.

My relationship with God still works best with worship in body, mind, and soul. As long as I have a body, it's going to take part in worship, right along with mind and soul. I see no reason to dissect the body out of worship.

Let me help you at least this much. The bodily worship of God involves the refusal to bow down before anything made by human hands, has no life, and is not God. One cannot bodily ascend into the spheres of higher intelligences while doing stupid things.

I think much of your distress stems from incorrectly thinking it is the symbols that are being worshiped, when truth is that worship is always directed towards the invisible reality. I sincerely hope this helps your peace of mind.

Not to worry! I am not distressed in the least. The crap you are selling had no bearing on my thinking or perceptions of reality even in the second grade. It certainly has no effect on me now. I think your confusion stems from thinking Eucharistic worship is symbolic in contradiction to Church teaching.

Again, according to your own catechism the Eucharist becomes the body of Christ IN ACTUALITY, and is treated reverently as if it was a god that could give spiritual life to those who worship and eat it - on their knees - even though it was made by human hands, has no life, and is not God.

I think your distress is evidence that the laws of God remain in effect and are in full force.

 

[Meriweather]

I am afraid that you are mistaken. Eucharistic worship is not symbolic in any way. According to your own catechism the Eucharist becomes the body of Christ IN ACTUALITY, and is treated reverently as if it was a god that could give spiritual life to those who worship and eat it - on their knees - even though it was made by human hands, has no life, and is not God.

Not mistaken at all, and am a bit surprised you misunderstood. From speaking with you previously, you seem to understand that Catholics believe in the true presence of Christ becoming present in the bread and wine; that the Holy Spirit is present in the sacraments which anointing and laying on of hands occurs. Yes, it is obvious that where Christ is present, reverence is going to be the order of the day.

While the symbols ('accidents' is the formal term) remain bread and wine, they are changed by the Presence of Christ. It is Christ being worshiped, not the accidents. To me (and probably to most Catholics) that is so obvious it shouldn't even have to be said. People really have to work hard to imagine Catholics worshiping wheat and grapes.

 

[ninja007]

Catholics use the same matter, form, and intent taught by Christ, worshiping God with body, mind, and soul. Catholic sacraments are the visible signs of the invisible reality. We see Christ using these visible signs throughout his ministry: Water, bread, wine, breathing, laying on of hands, tongues of fire.

I am afraid that you are mistaken. Eucharistic worship is not symbolic in any way. According to your own catechism the Eucharist becomes the body of Christ IN ACTUALITY, and is treated reverently as if it was a god that could give spiritual life to those who worship and eat it - on their knees - even though it was made by human hands, has no life, and is not God.

Apparently you feel you are at a higher evolution with worship solely with intent/mind. Someone once told me they don't even bother with prayer, because God knows what we need before we ask. That is their faith.

Sounds reasonable to me. I think that a person should first seek the kingdom of God and understand and conform to what he asks and then everything and then some will be provided. If you do not do that first, praying for this or that is bound to fall on deaf ears.

My relationship with God still works best with worship in body, mind, and soul. As long as I have a body, it's going to take part in worship, right along with mind and soul. I see no reason to dissect the body out of worship.

Let me help you at least this much. The bodily worship of God involves the refusal to bow down before anything made by human hands, has no life, and is not God. One cannot bodily ascend into the spheres of higher intelligences while doing stupid things.

I think much of your distress stems from incorrectly thinking it is the symbols that are being worshiped, when truth is that worship is always directed towards the invisible reality. I sincerely hope this helps your peace of mind.

Not to worry! I am not distressed in the least. The crap you are selling had no bearing on my thinking or perceptions of reality even in the second grade. It certainly has no effect on me now. I think your confusion stems from thinking Eucharistic worship is symbolic in contradiction to Church teaching.

Again, according to your own catechism the Eucharist becomes the body of Christ IN ACTUALITY, and is treated reverently as if it was a god that could give spiritual life to those who worship and eat it - on their knees - even though it was made by human hands, has no life, and is not God.

I think your distress is evidence that the laws of God remain in effect and are in full force.

Amen.

 

[hobelim]

Not mistaken at all, and am a bit surprised you misunderstood. From speaking with you previously, you seem to understand that Catholics believe in the true presence of Christ becoming present in the bread and wine; that the Holy Spirit is present in the sacraments which anointing and laying on of hands occurs. Yes, it is obvious that where Christ is present, reverence is going to be the order of the day.

While the symbols ('accidents' is the formal term) remain bread and wine, they are changed by the Presence of Christ. It is Christ being worshiped, not the accidents. To me (and probably to most Catholics) that is so obvious it shouldn't even have to be said. People really have to work hard to imagine Catholics worshiping wheat and grapes.

I do understand that Catholics believe in the actual presence of Christ in the Eucharist based on the teaching of the Church that during mass the Eucharist, made by human hands, becomes the Body of Christ IN ACTUALITY.

The problem with that is the bread of life that came down from heaven and became a body of teaching that Jesus transformed metaphorically into his flesh is not made by human hands and certainly no teaching of Jesus is in the Eucharist which has no life and can give no life.

And no, its not hard to imagine Catholics worshiping wheat and grapes. They already don't realize the evil they are mixed up in even after the priest clearly states that the Eucharist is made by human hands.

Whats to imagine? One just has to peek inside of any catholic church on any given sunday and they will hear with their own ears the priest say that the eucharist is made by human hands and then see with their own eyes the entire congregation get on their knees when the priest lifts it up to be worshiped and makes the ridiculous claim that " this" a lifeless matzo, "is the body of Christ".

Jesus is not present in anything made by human hands that has no life.

You worship a cracker. snap out of it.

 

[Meriweather]

Not mistaken at all, and am a bit surprised you misunderstood. From speaking with you previously, you seem to understand that Catholics believe in the true presence of Christ becoming present in the bread and wine; that the Holy Spirit is present in the sacraments which anointing and laying on of hands occurs. Yes, it is obvious that where Christ is present, reverence is going to be the order of the day.

While the symbols ('accidents' is the formal term) remain bread and wine, they are changed by the Presence of Christ. It is Christ being worshiped, not the accidents. To me (and probably to most Catholics) that is so obvious it shouldn't even have to be said. People really have to work hard to imagine Catholics worshiping wheat and grapes.

I do understand that Catholics believe in the actual presence of Christ in the Eucharist based on the teaching of the Church that during mass the Eucharist, made by human hands, becomes the Body of Christ IN ACTUALITY.

The problem with that is the bread of life that came down from heaven and became a body of teaching that Jesus transformed metaphorically into his flesh is not made by human hands and certainly no teaching of Jesus is in the Eucharist which has no life and can give no life.

And no, its not hard to imagine Catholics worshiping wheat and grapes. They already don't realize the evil they are mixed up in even after the priest clearly states that the Eucharist is made by human hands.

Whats to imagine? One just has to peek inside of any catholic church on any given sunday and they will hear with their own ears the priest say that the eucharist is made by human hands and then see with their own eyes the entire congregation get on their knees when the priest lifts it up to be worshiped and makes the ridiculous claim that " this" a lifeless matzo, "is the body of Christ".

Jesus is not present in anything made by human hands that has no life.

You worship a cracker. snap out of it.

Bread is made by human hands, and Christ himself infuses it with his presence. this is what he taught and this is our belief. It is Christ we worship, the bread that came down from heaven and is present among us.

Again, I understand this frosts you to no end, but we have faith in Christ and his words. He took the bread, broke it, and said, "Take and eat. This is my body..." We are honored to be called to this feast.

So let it be.

 

[ogibillm]

If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, then use Catholic sites. Spreading misinformation and falsehood is beneath you. I think you know that.

Spreading misinformation and falsehood should be beneath him, if he was the christian he claims to be. It's clear though that it is actually his modus operandi.

 

[ninja007]

Not mistaken at all, and am a bit surprised you misunderstood. From speaking with you previously, you seem to understand that Catholics believe in the true presence of Christ becoming present in the bread and wine; that the Holy Spirit is present in the sacraments which anointing and laying on of hands occurs. Yes, it is obvious that where Christ is present, reverence is going to be the order of the day.

While the symbols ('accidents' is the formal term) remain bread and wine, they are changed by the Presence of Christ. It is Christ being worshiped, not the accidents. To me (and probably to most Catholics) that is so obvious it shouldn't even have to be said. People really have to work hard to imagine Catholics worshiping wheat and grapes.

I do understand that Catholics believe in the actual presence of Christ in the Eucharist based on the teaching of the Church that during mass the Eucharist, made by human hands, becomes the Body of Christ IN ACTUALITY.

The problem with that is the bread of life that came down from heaven and became a body of teaching that Jesus transformed metaphorically into his flesh is not made by human hands and certainly no teaching of Jesus is in the Eucharist which has no life and can give no life.

And no, its not hard to imagine Catholics worshiping wheat and grapes. They already don't realize the evil they are mixed up in even after the priest clearly states that the Eucharist is made by human hands.

Whats to imagine? One just has to peek inside of any catholic church on any given sunday and they will hear with their own ears the priest say that the eucharist is made by human hands and then see with their own eyes the entire congregation get on their knees when the priest lifts it up to be worshiped and makes the ridiculous claim that " this" a lifeless matzo, "is the body of Christ".

Jesus is not present in anything made by human hands that has no life.

You worship a cracker. snap out of it.

Bread is made by human hands, and Christ himself infuses it with his presence. this is what he taught and this is our belief. It is Christ we worship, the bread that came down from heaven and is present among us.

Again, I understand this frosts you to no end, but we have faith in Christ and his words. He took the bread, broke it, and said, "Take and eat. This is my body..." We are honored to be called to this feast.

So let it be.

no He does not. It's bread. He said do this is MEMORY of me. He isn't in the bread. He is in Heaven. Jesus is not omnipresent like the Holy Spirit is.

 

[ninja007]

ACT 1:11

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Jesus is not coming back until the Second Coming.

 

[ninja007]

The RC's are still in the OT waiting for manna from heaven. The Holy Spirit is already HERE and Jesus is only in Heaven. We do not need Jesus on earth yet. Do you not remember this passage by Jesus Himself?

The Holy Spirit Promised
…6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;… (John 16:7)

 

[ninja007]

Meri, Blackrook and other RC's. Jesus is in Heaven only. He has been only in Heaven for 2,000 plus years UNTIL His Second Coming. The closest He gets to earth next time is at the PRETRIB RAPTURE when Believers are called up to meet Him in the clouds.


Jesus has been in Heaven for 2,000 years since He left; seated at the right hand of the Father. Jesus said He would send a comforter, the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit who lives on the inside of the Believer, not Jesus. Jesus is not omnipresent.

The Ascension (Mark 16:19)-


19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

John 14.16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth ."

John 14.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

The Return of the Son of Man (Matt 24:26)

26"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.…


He arose bodily from the grave, then ascended bodily to God's throne, and that “this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven” (Acts 1:11), will return. Until He returns, therefore, He is seated bodily at the right hand of the presence of the triune God in heaven.

Jesus is not in the Eucharist or anything else.

 

[Meriweather]

Meri, Blackrook and other RC's. Jesus is in Heaven only. He has been only in Heaven for 2,000 plus years UNTIL His Second Coming. The closest He gets to earth next time is at the PRETRIB RAPTURE when Believers are called up to meet Him in the clouds.


Jesus has been in Heaven for 2,000 years since He left; seated at the right hand of the Father. Jesus said He would send a comforter, the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit who lives on the inside of the Believer, not Jesus. Jesus is not omnipresent.

The Ascension (Mark 16:19)-


19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

John 14.16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth ."

John 14.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

The Return of the Son of Man (Matt 24:26)

26"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.…


He arose bodily from the grave, then ascended bodily to God's throne, and that “this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven” (Acts 1:11), will return. Until He returns, therefore, He is seated bodily at the right hand of the presence of the triune God in heaven.

Jesus is not in the Eucharist or anything else.

So, another of your beliefs is that where two or three gather in his name, Jesus is not there? Is there anything else you wish to share with us about what Christ said that you don't believe?