CDZ Will any USMB abortion proponents admit that an abortion kills a child?

[Coyote]

My humble opinion: Fetal homicide laws should not apply to a mother who aborts, but they should apply to third parties who kill a fetus while they are violating the rights of the mother.

That is your opinion, I get that.

I'm still trying to get a little more information than only that.

Like you just said, you think a person who (even accidentally) kills a child in the womb during a criminal act should be charged with murder. However, if the woman DELIBERATELY pays Planned Parenthood to kill it herself.... there should be no charges against her at all.

Do you at least see the conflicts of legal interests in that?

Do you think anyone convicted under a fetal homicide law is not going to be quick to point that double standard out to a judge to at least TRY to get their conviction overturned?

The difference is third party involvement and that third party intentionally violating the rights of the pregnant woman.

Big difference. Huge.

When the "third party" is charged with "murder" for killing a child in the womb. . . How is that a crime against the mother?

The murder charge for killing the child in the womb does not mean the woman's rights were violated. It means the CHILDS rights were violated.

Exactly! But by definition and by necessity in the event, a pregnant female is involved.

The difference is HER decision. Her 51% say in the relationship with her unborn child gives her the right to decide.

Some asshole deciding to assault her is an apples to oranges comparison. The pregnant female, the unborn child and the asshole who assaults them all have 100% equal protection under the law until a jury determines otherwise. If a jury decides that the asshole violated the rights of either or both, appropriate punishment needs to be delivered by the state.

As I said, this is my opinion of how our criminal justice should work - there is no right or wrong answer here, only differing political opinions.

Surely you are aware that there are limits to when a woman can and can not get an abortion.

So, your claim that she has 2% more rights than the child she is carrying has. . . is not indefinite.

Do you support term limits on abortion?

If you do, then what is your justification for telling a woman she can NOT abort anymore after a certain point?

Abortions should never be illegal, the women's right to life and health should always be prime, but I support limits on elective abortions.

 

[Coyote]

No. Because the children involved in pornography have rights that are being violated by the event.

Apples and oranges in a bowl of opinions.

Ummm.

You said yourself that children in the womb have at least 49% rights equal to the mother's rights. . . remember?

Fortunately, a vast majority of Americans agree with me that favoring the rights of the children over the rights of the pornographers and their market is the right thing to do.

In the absence of a "higher authority" with punitive powers, society is responsible.

Why do you believe the bans justified and effective when it comes to child pornography (despite the technology and all) but the same kinds of bans would not be effective when it comes to abortions?

In child pornography only one persons rights are being violated.

 

[Coyote]

":Are all abortions necessary?"

Or not?

In the opinion of the pregnant woman agonizing over the decision?

I would certainly hope so. Sadness if anyone considering that option didn't take the choice seriously.​

Both your answers to such a simple question tells me that you are both oblivious to the numbers of women who later regret their abortions and would tell you themselves that their abortions were NOT necessary.

Let the he or the she who has never fucked up and has no regrets cast the first stone then.

Educate a reduction in demand and you educate a reduction in regrets. Then the only abortions being performed will be safe, legal and necessary - problem solved without resorting to prohibition.

You will never "educate" away the tendency for people like me to defend the rights of the children who are being aborted against the mindset of people like you - people who think it is okay to deny to them the equal protections of our laws.

I don't think anyone is trying to. It's your right.

 

[Coyote]

Fortunately, a vast majority of Americans agree with me that favoring the rights of the children over the rights of the pornographers and their market is the right thing to do.

In the absence of a "higher authority" with punitive powers, society is responsible.

Why do you believe the bans justified and effective when it comes to child pornography (despite the technology and all) but the same kinds of bans would not be effective when it comes to abortions?

Because, like the current trade in illegal pornography involving children, an illegal trade in abortions would be the most notable result of a ban.

The only way to keep abortion safe for the women who feel that they need one is to keep it legal and regulated.

The only way to stop abortions from happening is to reduce unwanted pregnancies by educating the populace about sex while making all of the tools and technologies developed for contraception and family planning available to ALL persons who are making the very personal decision in the privacy of their own mind and body to become sexually active.

and more...providing the support a pregnant woman needs to make the choice of life whether that be financial, educational ( keeping her in school), emotional, employment etc.

 

[2aguy]

As to the favorite cases that the pro death advocates push to justify their killing of babies......I was flipping through the cable channels and found a show called "Long Lost Family" a show were the hosts find the families of children given up for adoption....and children from the families who gave them up.......on the show I watched, a woman found her birth mother....and found out that she was conceived when her mother was raped by her uncle.....and as an adult, she found her mother, and they reunited........but if the pro death group had their way, that would never have happened because the baby, the woman, would have been killed....

And another one....a woman who was allowed to be born because at the time of her birth, abortion was illegal in Michigan......another rape .......the favorite tool of the pro death, camp....

Rebecca Kiessling discovers she was conceived by RAPE after tracking birth mother | Daily Mail Online

A woman who discovered she was conceived by rape has been adopted by her birth mother more than 40 years after she was given away.

Rebecca Kiessling always knew she wasn't brought up by her biological parents, but it was not until she searched for her birth mother that she found out why.

The 45-year-old, from Michigan, US, waited until she was 18 to track down Joann, who revealed she had considered aborting her daughter – and later told her that her biological father was a rapist.

Joann, now 77, had been attacked while she was on her way to a shop at night, and dragged to a nearby field.

Rebecca said: 'Mum told me she thought he was going to kill her. He had a knife. She was lucky to be alive.'

The attacker was never caught but Joann discovered she was pregnant with his baby.

Rebecca explained: 'Abortion was illegal in Michigan. Mum admitted if it had been legal at the time she would have had an abortion.

'That really upset me. She even went to two backstreet abortion clinics but in the end was too fearful for her life when she saw the conditions there.

--------

She said: 'I was scared she wouldn't want to meet me but she was thrilled to hear from me.'

But she said: 'When I first met her, it felt natural to call Joann 'Mum' and she has said she sees me as a blessing.

'I'm so happy something so good came from something so awful.'

Joann was thrilled to hear from her biological daughter. And when Rebecca married husband Robert Kiessling in 1998, Joann was the mother of the bride.

Rebecca said: 'I didn't know if I would ever see her let alone have her at my wedding. It was an amazing day.'

Rebecca revealed that she even told her own children what had happened.

She said: 'I'd always felt compelled to adopt children so we did that before we had our own.

Pro death advocates, that would include those who support the death penalty if you are going to insist on perjoratives. Your personal testimonials exclude the many women who died from illegal abortions.

If you want to use that you can....but then you have to actually say what we represent....you represent the death of innocent babies....I represent the death of murderers.....

No...illegal abortions are "illegal"...the doctors who performed them are the ones committing the crime....

 

[Chuz Life]

You said the best way to "end abortion" is to make it unnecessary.

That implies that you think all abortions are necessary.

Otherwise, you have to admit that making them un-necessary will still not end them all.

Only in your opinion.

Whether or not an abortion is "necessary" is not determined by me. Or you. Or anyone else but the pregnant woman.

I am using YOUR words, not mine.

You said that you could "end abortion by making it unnecessary."

Remember?

So, I ask YOU again....

":Are all abortions necessary?"

Or not?

And I"m going to say AGAIN - that I do not determine whether an abortion is necessary.

If we end all abortions by making them unnecessary, then it's by convincing each woman that her particular case is not necessary and by ending unwanted pregnancies.

Do you believe all abortions are necessary?

Yes or no?

Either you do or you don't.

Not everything can be boiled down to a simple yes or no especially the abortion debate.

Are all abortions necessary? To get an answer to that you need to ask each woman who had one. I can not and will not answer for them.

What may be necessary to one may not be to another.

It's hilarious, the lengths that you will go through to avoid the point of a question.

The question is "do YOU feel that all abortions are necessary?"

Either you do or you don't.

No one is asking for you to answer for ALL women.... But the fact that there are women who REGRET their abortions should be your first clue as for what your answer should be.

 

[AVG-JOE]

That's bullshit. Necessity is in the eye of the decider, and in her eye alone.

It is unfair for you to ask anyone but each individual patient involved about the 'necessity' of an abortion. Between the emotional cost and the financial costs involved, we can only ass-u-me that the women making that decision for themselves feel it's the best option at the time.

 

[Chuz Life]

Fortunately, a vast majority of Americans agree with me that favoring the rights of the children over the rights of the pornographers and their market is the right thing to do.

In the absence of a "higher authority" with punitive powers, society is responsible.

Why do you believe the bans justified and effective when it comes to child pornography (despite the technology and all) but the same kinds of bans would not be effective when it comes to abortions?

Because, like the current trade in illegal pornography involving children, an illegal trade in abortions would be the most notable result of a ban.

The only way to keep abortion safe for the women who feel that they need one is to keep it legal and regulated.

The only way to stop abortions from happening is to reduce unwanted pregnancies by educating the populace about sex while making all of the tools and technologies developed for contraception and family planning available to ALL persons who are making the very personal decision in the privacy of their own mind and body to become sexually active.

and more...providing the support a pregnant woman needs to make the choice of life whether that be financial, educational ( keeping her in school), emotional, employment etc.

Can you guys put a list together of all the things we can do for women that you think they need for their pregnancies.... make the list complete enough that you would be comfortable with a ban on abortion, thereafter.

Or....

Just admit that it's all a red herring.

 

[Coyote]

Fortunately, a vast majority of Americans agree with me that favoring the rights of the children over the rights of the pornographers and their market is the right thing to do.

In the absence of a "higher authority" with punitive powers, society is responsible.

Why do you believe the bans justified and effective when it comes to child pornography (despite the technology and all) but the same kinds of bans would not be effective when it comes to abortions?

Because, like the current trade in illegal pornography involving children, an illegal trade in abortions would be the most notable result of a ban.

The only way to keep abortion safe for the women who feel that they need one is to keep it legal and regulated.

The only way to stop abortions from happening is to reduce unwanted pregnancies by educating the populace about sex while making all of the tools and technologies developed for contraception and family planning available to ALL persons who are making the very personal decision in the privacy of their own mind and body to become sexually active.

and more...providing the support a pregnant woman needs to make the choice of life whether that be financial, educational ( keeping her in school), emotional, employment etc.

Can you guys put a list together of all the things we can do for women that you think they need for their pregnancies.... make the list complete enough that you would be comfortable with a ban on abortion, thereafter.

Or....

Just admit that it's all a red herring.

I will never be comfortable with a ban on abortion - that's a no go area for me because no matter how good a safety net you have, there will always be those who fall through. Banning abortion means a woman ultimately looses control over her own body, that the baby's rights to her body equal or overcome hers at every point of pregnancy and that is unacceptable to me.

For me - success is in reducing the elective abortion rate to as close to zero as possible.

To that end, these are some of the things I support - I'm sure there is more.

Free and readily available contraception without prescription.

• Accurate sex education that dispells the myths that you can't get pregnant if...., promotes both self responsibility and, in case you still want to -how to do it safely. I would also add for communities that suffer high rates of teen pregnancies - classes on exactly what it means to be a parent and how restricting and hard it is for a young single person.
• Support services - counseling that's not coercive but supportive, programs aimed at young teens to keep them in school and on a career path of some sort, programs that teach young parents how to be parents, programs that offer some sort of financial support to get through school and job training for these parents.

But that only addresses one aspect - young people, teen pregnancies. Other aspects are more difficult to address:

• Pregnancies that occur when a situation is good, but then things happen - job loss, loss of healthcare coverage, home loss, relationsip loss, financial hardship that might change the ability of a person to have and raise a child - having to take jobs that offer no maternal leave - or, you could lose your job if you get pregnant and need to take time off to have the baby.
• Underage mothers - way underage. A child's body is not meant to be bearing children.
• Fetal defects...this is a hard one. For instance - some are "relatively" mild some will cause the death of the baby soon after birth. Should a woman be forced to carry a pregnancy to term knowing it will die at birth...?

Childbirth still carries substantial risks for the mother - in fact, I recently read something about maternal mortality increasing in the US - pretty shocking since you think of it in terms of third world countries. Yet another reason why her rights should be paramount.

 

[Coyote]

Only in your opinion.

Whether or not an abortion is "necessary" is not determined by me. Or you. Or anyone else but the pregnant woman.

I am using YOUR words, not mine.

You said that you could "end abortion by making it unnecessary."

Remember?

So, I ask YOU again....

":Are all abortions necessary?"

Or not?

And I"m going to say AGAIN - that I do not determine whether an abortion is necessary.

If we end all abortions by making them unnecessary, then it's by convincing each woman that her particular case is not necessary and by ending unwanted pregnancies.

Do you believe all abortions are necessary?

Yes or no?

Either you do or you don't.

Not everything can be boiled down to a simple yes or no especially the abortion debate.

Are all abortions necessary? To get an answer to that you need to ask each woman who had one. I can not and will not answer for them.

What may be necessary to one may not be to another.

It's hilarious, the lengths that you will go through to avoid the point of a question.

The question is "do YOU feel that all abortions are necessary?"

Either you do or you don't.

No one is asking for you to answer for ALL women.... But the fact that there are women who REGRET their abortions should be your first clue as for what your answer should be.

What's hilarious is that you are playing games with sophistry here rather than trying to engage in meaningful discussion.

You are asking me - are ALL abortions necessary.
Then you are saying - no one is asking you to answer for ALL women

But you are. That is exactly what you are doing when you ask me about ALL abortions. I can only legitimately answer for my own self and my own personal experiences.

 

[HenryBHough]

I am very much pro-abortion and I fully recognize that each abortion kills a child.

However I am selectively pro-abortion.

So long as it's a liberal Democrat couple indulging in their favourite sport I see no harm in it at all. In fact, it would definitely save the child from being indoctrinated into liberalism. I think of Democrat self-genocide as a positive thing in the global sense and strongly feel it should not just be paid for with public funds but there should also be some kind of cashbonus for the couple. But they'd be required to spend it only on extreme sports like parachuteless sky diving lessons.

 

[Coyote]

I am very much pro-abortion and I fully recognize that each abortion kills a child.

However I am selectively pro-abortion.

So long as it's a liberal Democrat couple indulging in their favourite sport I see no harm in it at all. In fact, it would definitely save the child from being indoctrinated into liberalism. I think of Democrat self-genocide as a positive thing in the global sense and strongly feel it should not just be paid for with public funds but there should also be some kind of cashbonus for the couple. But they'd be required to spend it only on extreme sports like parachuteless sky diving lessons.

Ok...that was funny

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Abortion kills a child. So do drive bys. It is sad, unfortunate horrible really that women go around killing their children. But look at what children are being killed. Every liberal that kills their child means one less liberal in the world. Blacks are killing themselves off at a rate that would make Margaret Sanger proud. This means less crime, reduction in the prison population. Yes, a lot of being made up by immigration, but look, we can convince those women to kill their children too!

If Christians just start having more children and not kill them someday the nation might return to decency.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I have always been amused by the folks that believe that if abortion were illegal, there would be none, as if Roe Vs. Wade suddenly began the history of abortion. The only difference between now and 1972 is that before 1973, many doctors were criminals, and many abortions were botched by amateurs, and women died. I was aware of at least 7 abortions performed in my high school years in the1960's, and I am sure there were dozens of my classmates that had them over the 5 year period that I wasn't aware of. One would have the same rate of success and failure by outlawing sex.

 

[Dragonlady]

Only in your opinion.

Whether or not an abortion is "necessary" is not determined by me. Or you. Or anyone else but the pregnant woman.

I am using YOUR words, not mine.

You said that you could "end abortion by making it unnecessary."

Remember?

So, I ask YOU again....

":Are all abortions necessary?"

Or not?

And I"m going to say AGAIN - that I do not determine whether an abortion is necessary.

If we end all abortions by making them unnecessary, then it's by convincing each woman that her particular case is not necessary and by ending unwanted pregnancies.

Do you believe all abortions are necessary?

Yes or no?

Either you do or you don't.

Not everything can be boiled down to a simple yes or no especially the abortion debate.

Are all abortions necessary? To get an answer to that you need to ask each woman who had one. I can not and will not answer for them.

What may be necessary to one may not be to another.

It's hilarious, the lengths that you will go through to avoid the point of a question.

The question is "do YOU feel that all abortions are necessary?"

Either you do or you don't.

No one is asking for you to answer for ALL women.... But the fact that there are women who REGRET their abortions should be your first clue as for what your answer should be.

Many women would continue their pregnancies if there were job protections so they wouldn't be fired, health insurance to fully cover the costs of labour and delivery, paid maternity leave and the other benefits of living in countries where people are more important than corporations - like every other first world country except the US.

But you would never agree to that because you really don't care about these women or their children.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Depends when the abortion occurs.

1-20 weeks it is a bunch of cells.
Afterwards one could argue more and more that it is more.

 

[Syriusly]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

A) I don't know any 'abortion proponents'- I do know choice proponents- 'abortion proponent' is like saying "appendectomy proponents"
B) The fetus is a potential child- it may- or may not end up being a child. That is why we don't have funerals for miscarriages.
C) Do you agree that requiring a woman to carry a fetus to term is a form of slavery?

 

[Chuz Life]

":Are all abortions necessary?"

Or not?

In the opinion of the pregnant woman agonizing over the decision?

I would certainly hope so. Sadness if anyone considering that option didn't take the choice seriously.​

Both your answers to such a simple question tells me that you are both oblivious to the numbers of women who later regret their abortions and would tell you themselves that their abortions were NOT necessary.

Let the he or the she who has never fucked up and has no regrets cast the first stone then.

Educate a reduction in demand and you educate a reduction in regrets. Then the only abortions being performed will be safe, legal and necessary - problem solved without resorting to prohibition.

I see the disconnect now.

Can you understand that the end goal is not to manage a reduction in regrets? The goal is to establish and to guard all of the rights of all those involved.

 

[AVG-JOE]

That's what makes it a political question, Bud.....

You keep voting and telling everyone who'll listen how you feel about stuff, I'll do the same, and we'll meet in court if necessary.

Beer? ​

 

[Toronado3800]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

Your belief is fine and logical. But I am a small government guy. Just as others don't want my belief masturbation is a sin imposed on them, they don't want your belief on abortion imposed on them.