CDZ Will any USMB abortion proponents admit that an abortion kills a child?

[IsaacNewton]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

If you'll admit that you do nothing to help the 24,000 children that die every single day around the world that could be saved with help.

How about it?

I pay taxes and I support not only the Government programs and laws that fight poverty, human trafficking and child exploitation around the world... I donate to private run charities as I can, as well.

So, I honestly can not "admit" to doing "nothing" when I actually do "something." Do I do enough? Who's to say? Could I do more? Absolutely! We all could.

Funny (weird actually) that you think YOUR ability to come clean about your beliefs are somehow tied to mine.

You can't. You have excuses and in the ten minutes since you posted 40 more children died.

You take care of the ones already born and your 'outrage' at abortion will have some merit. Until then you are just picking and choosing whom to let die. Like everyone else. You have no moral high ground which is what this thread and all like it are meant to provide you. Far more children die from causes other than abortion, save them they are here now and can be saved. Don't reply, don't spend your time and money typing, go do something. Or don't.

It's a choice.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I have never met an "abortion proponent", myself. Maybe this is the reason that Chuz is having a hard time finding one that agrees with him....

 

[Divine Wind]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

Since 1) a zygote is not a "child" and 2) since you couldn't tell the difference between a dog embryo and a human one, then obviously your OP premise is flawed since, prior to a specific stage of development, abortion does not kill a "child".

 

[Divine Wind]

I have never met an "abortion proponent", myself. Maybe this is the reason that Chuz is having a hard time finding one that agrees with him....

I'm one. I advocate that all Liberals have easy access to cheap abortions. Seriously.

 

[Chuz Life]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

If you'll admit that you do nothing to help the 24,000 children that die every single day around the world that could be saved with help.

How about it?

I pay taxes and I support not only the Government programs and laws that fight poverty, human trafficking and child exploitation around the world... I donate to private run charities as I can, as well.

So, I honestly can not "admit" to doing "nothing" when I actually do "something." Do I do enough? Who's to say? Could I do more? Absolutely! We all could.

Funny (weird actually) that you think YOUR ability to come clean about your beliefs are somehow tied to mine.

You can't. You have excuses and in the ten minutes since you posted 40 more children died.

You take care of the ones already born and your 'outrage' at abortion will have some merit. Until then you are just picking and choosing whom to let die. Like everyone else. You have no moral high ground which is what this thread and all like it are meant to provide you. Far more children die from causes other than abortion, save them they are here now and can be saved. Don't reply, don't spend your time and money typing, go do something. Or don't.

It's a choice.

You keep trying to make it all about me. I understand that's indicative of your own coping mechanism. . . but it's not about me (the messenger.) Never has been, never will be.

You go ahead and keep thinking it's about the messenger. I'm going to keep working on the facts.

 

[Chuz Life]

I have never met an "abortion proponent", myself. Maybe this is the reason that Chuz is having a hard time finding one that agrees with him....

I already have found one such person in Aaronleland.

Have you not been reading our exchange?

 

[Divine Wind]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

If you'll admit that you do nothing to help the 24,000 children that die every single day around the world that could be saved with help.

How about it?

I pay taxes and I support not only the Government programs and laws that fight poverty, human trafficking and child exploitation around the world... I donate to private run charities as I can, as well.

So, I honestly can not "admit" to doing "nothing" when I actually do "something." Do I do enough? Who's to say? Could I do more? Absolutely! We all could.

Funny (weird actually) that you think YOUR ability to come clean about your beliefs are somehow tied to mine.

You can't. You have excuses and in the ten minutes since you posted 40 more children died.

You take care of the ones already born and your 'outrage' at abortion will have some merit. Until then you are just picking and choosing whom to let die. Like everyone else. You have no moral high ground which is what this thread and all like it are meant to provide you. Far more children die from causes other than abortion, save them they are here now and can be saved. Don't reply, don't spend your time and money typing, go do something. Or don't.

It's a choice.

You keep trying to make it all about me. I understand that's indicative of your own coping mechanism. . . but it's not about me (the messenger.) Never has been, never will be.

You go ahead and keep thinking it's about the messenger. I'm going to keep working on the facts.

Dude, you made it all about you when you included a shitload of "I" in your OP and made it solely about your opinion, not any facts.

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

 

[Chuz Life]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

Since 1) a zygote is not a "child" and 2) since you couldn't tell the difference between a dog embryo and a human one, then obviously your OP premise is flawed since, prior to a specific stage of development, abortion does not kill a "child".

I understand that you don't think a child in the zygote stage of their life is a "child." However, that's not what this thread is about.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I have never met an "abortion proponent", myself. Maybe this is the reason that Chuz is having a hard time finding one that agrees with him....

I already have found one such person in Aaronleland.

Have you not been reading our exchange?

Nope. Not interested, really, but you now can identify 2 "abortion proponents", now that D. Wind has posted.

 

[Chuz Life]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

If you'll admit that you do nothing to help the 24,000 children that die every single day around the world that could be saved with help.

How about it?

I pay taxes and I support not only the Government programs and laws that fight poverty, human trafficking and child exploitation around the world... I donate to private run charities as I can, as well.

So, I honestly can not "admit" to doing "nothing" when I actually do "something." Do I do enough? Who's to say? Could I do more? Absolutely! We all could.

Funny (weird actually) that you think YOUR ability to come clean about your beliefs are somehow tied to mine.

You can't. You have excuses and in the ten minutes since you posted 40 more children died.

You take care of the ones already born and your 'outrage' at abortion will have some merit. Until then you are just picking and choosing whom to let die. Like everyone else. You have no moral high ground which is what this thread and all like it are meant to provide you. Far more children die from causes other than abortion, save them they are here now and can be saved. Don't reply, don't spend your time and money typing, go do something. Or don't.

It's a choice.

You keep trying to make it all about me. I understand that's indicative of your own coping mechanism. . . but it's not about me (the messenger.) Never has been, never will be.

You go ahead and keep thinking it's about the messenger. I'm going to keep working on the facts.

Dude, you made it all about you when you included a shitload of "I" in your OP and made it solely about your opinion, not any facts.

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

You are confusing two different things.

Yes, this thread is about my personal quest to find someone who agrees that an abortion kills a child.

NO, the entire abortion issue / debate is NOT about me "the messenger."

Clear now?

 

[Chuz Life]

I have never met an "abortion proponent", myself. Maybe this is the reason that Chuz is having a hard time finding one that agrees with him....

I already have found one such person in Aaronleland.

Have you not been reading our exchange?

Nope. Not interested, really, but you now can identify 2 "abortion proponents", now that D. Wind has posted.

Well, there you go.

 

[Divine Wind]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

Since 1) a zygote is not a "child" and 2) since you couldn't tell the difference between a dog embryo and a human one, then obviously your OP premise is flawed since, prior to a specific stage of development, abortion does not kill a "child".

I understand that you don't think a child in the zygote stage of their life is a "child." However, that's not what this thread is about.

Actually that's my point in that your OP is flawed logic. It's like if I started a thread that all Europeans are really space aliens and wanted to discuss what to do about them? Negotiate or nuke them? Then someone with common fucking sense comes along and says, "But DW, Europeans are just people. They aren't space aliens! Do you have evidence they are?" and if my response is "Euros being human isn't what this thread is about", would you think I'm a fucking moron with my head buried so far up my ass I can't hear much less see or smell?

 

[IsaacNewton]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

If you'll admit that you do nothing to help the 24,000 children that die every single day around the world that could be saved with help.

How about it?

What part of the OP talks about children around the world? He asked you nicely not to derail. How about you try that?

So life isn't life? If it is far away it isn't important? What is the cutoff distance? Only those children within US borders? Or perhaps only Kristian children? Selective choice of who lives and who doesn't. I'm betting pro-birth means pro-choice when faced with a tough choice.

 

[Divine Wind]

If you'll admit that you do nothing to help the 24,000 children that die every single day around the world that could be saved with help.

How about it?

I pay taxes and I support not only the Government programs and laws that fight poverty, human trafficking and child exploitation around the world... I donate to private run charities as I can, as well.

So, I honestly can not "admit" to doing "nothing" when I actually do "something." Do I do enough? Who's to say? Could I do more? Absolutely! We all could.

Funny (weird actually) that you think YOUR ability to come clean about your beliefs are somehow tied to mine.

You can't. You have excuses and in the ten minutes since you posted 40 more children died.

You take care of the ones already born and your 'outrage' at abortion will have some merit. Until then you are just picking and choosing whom to let die. Like everyone else. You have no moral high ground which is what this thread and all like it are meant to provide you. Far more children die from causes other than abortion, save them they are here now and can be saved. Don't reply, don't spend your time and money typing, go do something. Or don't.

It's a choice.

You keep trying to make it all about me. I understand that's indicative of your own coping mechanism. . . but it's not about me (the messenger.) Never has been, never will be.

You go ahead and keep thinking it's about the messenger. I'm going to keep working on the facts.

Dude, you made it all about you when you included a shitload of "I" in your OP and made it solely about your opinion, not any facts.

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

You are confusing two different things.

Yes, this thread is about my personal quest to find someone who agrees that an abortion kills a child.

NO, the entire abortion issue / debate is NOT about me "the messenger."

Clear now?

Disagreed. Dude, your reputation goes with you.

 

[Divine Wind]

I have never met an "abortion proponent", myself. Maybe this is the reason that Chuz is having a hard time finding one that agrees with him....

I already have found one such person in Aaronleland.

Have you not been reading our exchange?

Nope. Not interested, really, but you now can identify 2 "abortion proponents", now that D. Wind has posted.

Two points define a line and two people define a trend. Woot!

 

[Chuz Life]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

Since 1) a zygote is not a "child" and 2) since you couldn't tell the difference between a dog embryo and a human one, then obviously your OP premise is flawed since, prior to a specific stage of development, abortion does not kill a "child".

I understand that you don't think a child in the zygote stage of their life is a "child." However, that's not what this thread is about.

Actually that's my point in that your OP is flawed logic. It's like if I started a thread that all Europeans are really space aliens and wanted to discuss what to do about them? Negotiate or nuke them? Then someone with common fucking sense comes along and says, "But DW, Europeans are just people. They aren't space aliens! Do you have evidence they are?" and if my response is "Euros being human isn't what this thread is about", would you think I'm a fucking moron with my head buried so far up my ass I can't hear much less see or smell?

Whether you think it is flawed or not Aaronleland AGREES with me that an abortion kills a child.

That's what the thread is about and that's what I was looking for.

I don't really care that you think we are both wrong about it.

That's a debate for another thread.

 

[aaronleland]

A fetus is a child, but I don't think it's sentient in the same way a fetus say during the third trimester is. We kill much more developed animals without batting an eyelash.

Understood.

And, for what it's worth, I completely agree that sentience (sapience too) gradually develops in a child over time.

My question for you is.... why doesn't it drive you nuts to see other abortion proponents DENY that it's a child. Some even deny that it is a human being. They call it a parasite, etc.

Do you ever try to correct them? Or is it that because they also support abortion, like you do..... their ignorance about the biological facts is just more tolerable?

I'm sure I hold some bias with abortion proponents, but I never really debate the abortion issue, so I've had no reason to rebut them. I acknowledge the merits of both arguments, and dismiss the extremists on both sides.

I have to say, the thing that drives me most nuts about abortion proponents is their denial of, ignorance of and repulsion to the biological facts that I and apparently you too have accepted.

I also used to be an abortion proponent (kind of) myself. My view was along the lines of "well, I'm not a woman so who am I to day one way or the other."

But, even then. . . I only had to look at the evidence that indicates a child's life begins at conception ONCE. . . in order for me to drop the denials about it altogether.

Fighting that denial, that ignorance is what drives me the most. Not the injustice, the life is sacred crap or any of that.

Anyway, that's why it is actually a relief to find an abortion proponent who is not afraid to admit that an abortion does in fact kill a child.

I have a friend who was a "product" of rape. His mother refused to have an abortion. He grew to be one of the most genuine people I've met in my life. He taught me taekwondo. He's currently a police officer who once saved my sister-in-law's life. I acknowledge that wiping out a fetus wipes out certain possibilities. I will still defend a mother's right to choose.

Understood.

But with what you just said, I have to wonder what your views on fetal homicide laws are.

Do you support them or oppose them?

I'm not familiar with fetal homicide laws. I would need more details before deciding where I stand on the issue. I'd look it up, but I'm lazy.

 

[Chuz Life]

I pay taxes and I support not only the Government programs and laws that fight poverty, human trafficking and child exploitation around the world... I donate to private run charities as I can, as well.

So, I honestly can not "admit" to doing "nothing" when I actually do "something." Do I do enough? Who's to say? Could I do more? Absolutely! We all could.

Funny (weird actually) that you think YOUR ability to come clean about your beliefs are somehow tied to mine.

You can't. You have excuses and in the ten minutes since you posted 40 more children died.

You take care of the ones already born and your 'outrage' at abortion will have some merit. Until then you are just picking and choosing whom to let die. Like everyone else. You have no moral high ground which is what this thread and all like it are meant to provide you. Far more children die from causes other than abortion, save them they are here now and can be saved. Don't reply, don't spend your time and money typing, go do something. Or don't.

It's a choice.

You keep trying to make it all about me. I understand that's indicative of your own coping mechanism. . . but it's not about me (the messenger.) Never has been, never will be.

You go ahead and keep thinking it's about the messenger. I'm going to keep working on the facts.

Dude, you made it all about you when you included a shitload of "I" in your OP and made it solely about your opinion, not any facts.

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

You are confusing two different things.

Yes, this thread is about my personal quest to find someone who agrees that an abortion kills a child.

NO, the entire abortion issue / debate is NOT about me "the messenger."

Clear now?

Disagreed. Dude, your reputation goes with you.

When the Supreme Court finally takes up the case that gives them the opportunity to overturn Roe (likely will be a case where a fetal homicide law clashes with Roe). . . . do tell me where I personally will be involved in their arguments or decisions about that case.

 

[Vandalshandle]

In the old days, it was illegal to abort a zygote the size of a butter bean, so instead of an abortion, women had D&C's. It was so much more civilized then.

 

[Divine Wind]

Just what the thread title says.

I have participated on a lot of forums and debate sites for nearly 30 years now and though it is very rare, I have in fact encountered abortion proponents who are not afraid to admit that an abortion kills a child. They agree that an abortion denies prenatal children their rights while in the womb. . . etc. Their argument is simply that the rights of the mother trumps the rights of the child.

Strange as it may seem, I actually have a bit more respect for those opponents - because we (at least) have some common ground on the biological facts, when and how life begins, etc.

How about it?

Anybody?

Since 1) a zygote is not a "child" and 2) since you couldn't tell the difference between a dog embryo and a human one, then obviously your OP premise is flawed since, prior to a specific stage of development, abortion does not kill a "child".

I understand that you don't think a child in the zygote stage of their life is a "child." However, that's not what this thread is about.

Actually that's my point in that your OP is flawed logic. It's like if I started a thread that all Europeans are really space aliens and wanted to discuss what to do about them? Negotiate or nuke them? Then someone with common fucking sense comes along and says, "But DW, Europeans are just people. They aren't space aliens! Do you have evidence they are?" and if my response is "Euros being human isn't what this thread is about", would you think I'm a fucking moron with my head buried so far up my ass I can't hear much less see or smell?

Whether you think it is flawed or not Aaronleland AGREES with me that an abortion kills a child.

That's what the thread is about and that's what I was looking for.

I don't really care that you think we are both wrong about it.

That's a debate for another thread.

And I say a zygote is not a child. So, is that how you roll; votes not science?