Why the war in Ukraine is important to the West (long post)

[shockedcanadian]

You're a bit lost in the translation, as well as you also losing sight of our OP's intent on it being a US proxy war.

I continue to see a mass slaughter of the Ukrainian people and a mass migration from the Ukraine by the fortunate ones.

And I see America's track record on continuous wars of aggression since the end of WW2 as being a factor that can't be ignored.

Neither Russia or America can win this war but the Ukrainian people have already lost it.

My thesis isn't that it is an offensive U.S proxy war. This is a defense of a smaller, allied nation by the free, Western world via proxy . Staying in line with your Canadian police methodology you like to misrepresent people, I'm sure your agencies reputation is well known by Canadas allies.

America, Canada, Spain, Turkey, UK, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Poland, Slovakia, Belgium, Netherlands, Greece and more I'm sure have ALL sent weapons to Ukraine. Are they all involved in an offensive proxy war?

Combat via proxy allows all nations to save face and avoid direct contact which could escalate into a major global hot war. This might risk a nuclear missiles landing in your city, do you want to keep gaslighting such serious issues that could lead to the death of millions?

You are clearly in the minority in your views and juvenile tactics aimed to misrepresent good people. I wouldn't expect less from an obedient Good Little German like yourself. Your efforts to paint me as someone with psychological issues is an old, Eastern Bloc tactic popular in Canada. It's not very effective years later after me ratting out a dozen+ names of covert police to our U.S friends is it?

You've become the member of a U.S forum to slander Americans and posters who contribute in support of civil liberty.

You are no ally of Canada or the U.S. It doesn't matter that you are undercover and this is your "legend". It's outcome, whether by design or not, is to hurt the West and America.

 

[JWBooth]

Why the war in Ukraine is important to the West (long post)​

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[Donald H]

My thesis isn't that it is a U.S proxy war. This is a defense of a smaller, allied nation by the free, Western world via proxy .

That'll do fine.

Combat via proxy allows all nations to save face and avoid direct contact which could escalate into a major global hot war. This might risk a nuclear missiles landing in your city, ..................

Yes, that's it too.

You are clearly in the minority in your views and juvenile tactics aimed to misrepresent good people.

I don't know if I can agree with you that I'm in the minority?
But probably so.

The headache is back because you're clenching your teeth.

 

[Donald H]

Why the war in Ukraine is important to the West (long post)​

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

In fact, the wealth of the entire world, uncontested.

Would the wealth be shared by America, according to the Western country's contribution?

Supposing that there can ever be a winner??

 

[Silver Cat]

My thesis isn't that it is an offensive U.S proxy war. This is a defense of a smaller, allied nation by the free, Western world via proxy . Staying in line with your Canadian police methodology you like to misrepresent people, I'm sure your agencies reputation is well known by Canadas allies.

The problem is that the Russians are doing the same thing. They defend smaller allied nations of Donbass (DPR and LPR) against evil, Satanistic and neo-Nazi western half-animals (actually - against the Beast and Devil's cattle).

 

[Markle]

After reading so many posts on here, especially from Russian shills, I am encouraged to finally make this posting. After some pondering before producing this post, my thesis is an impulsive instinct that the West should replicate Reagans approach to avoiding war: proxy support is better than direct combat where possible.

Goofy thread.

Being opposed to an ever-expanding proxy war with Russia does not mean someone aligns themselves with Russia. You know that's true but you're desperate to defend the indefensible.

Instead of your diatribe, take a risk, and answer these reasonable questions from Tucker Carlson to the Republican candidates. This will be a lot shorter than your essay.

Won't it be great when the Democrat candidates answer the same questions?

Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?
[...]
What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it?
[...]
What is the limit of funding and material you would be willing to send to the government of Ukraine?
[...]
Should the United States support regime change in Russia?
[...]
Given that Russia’s economy and currency are stronger than before the war, do you believe that U.S. sanctions have been effective?
[...]
Do you believe the United States faces the risk of nuclear war with Russia?

 

[shockedcanadian]

Goofy thread.

Being opposed to an ever-expanding proxy war with Russia does not mean someone aligns themselves with Russia. You know that's true but you're desperate to defend the indefensible.

Instead of your diatribe, take a risk, and answer these reasonable questions from Tucker Carlson to the Republican candidates. This will be a lot shorter than your essay.

Won't it be great when the Democrat candidates answer the same questions?

Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?
[...]
What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it?
[...]
What is the limit of funding and material you would be willing to send to the government of Ukraine?
[...]
Should the United States support regime change in Russia?
[...]
Given that Russia’s economy and currency are stronger than before the war, do you believe that U.S. sanctions have been effective?
[...]
Do you believe the United States faces the risk of nuclear war with Russia?

I'm not in any position of authority to affect change so answering such questions is moot. What I do know is while we sit comfortably an ocean away there are former bankers, bakers and accountants who are fighting for ther lives and country. Not unlike the French Resistance. So for moral considerations alone humanity MUST help defend the weak. Furthermore, they are an ally, a national interest for both our nations, and, they are a vital buffer between Russia and Western Europe.

 

[ESay]

Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?

Yes, as long as it is strengthening and solidifying the NATO alliance.

What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it

To preserve Ukraine as a sovereign nation in any meaningful form.

Making sure that Russia is unable to make any significant advance from the current frontline is the first sign of that.

What is the limit of funding and material you would be willing to send to the government of Ukraine?

There is no certain figure. Ukraine should support itself economically after the active fighting is finished. Though, some loans and grants are inevitable for rebuilding damaged infrastructure.

Also, it seems that the bulk of financing for Ukrainian military, namely rearmament on NATO standards and training, will be provided from the NATO funds.

Should the United States support regime change in Russia?

No.

Given that Russia’s economy and currency are stronger than before the war, do you believe that U.S. sanctions have been effective?

They are not stronger. The Russian GDP fell on around 3% in 2022, despite high prices on oil and record high prices of natural gas.

The revenues of the Russian budget is expected to fall this year further, after the price cap on Russian oil having been imposed and the most profitable European market for Russian natural gas is shrinking.

Do you believe the United States faces the risk of nuclear war with Russia?

No. The Putin regime won't go that far. Especially after China and India voiced their concerns about that.

 

[Markle]

I'm not in any position of authority to affect change so answering such questions is moot. What I do know is while we sit comfortably an ocean away there are former bankers, bakers and accountants who are fighting for ther lives and country. Not unlike the French Resistance. So for moral considerations alone humanity MUST help defend the weak. Furthermore, they are an ally, a national interest for both our nations, and, they are a vital buffer between Russia and Western Europe.

How did I know that you would refuse to answer serious questions?

I am shocked, SHOCKED I SAY!

IF defending the weak and oppressed is a reason for war, why did we leave Afghanistan in shambles?

How about just these two questions? One?

Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?
[...]
What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it?

 

[shockedcanadian]

How did I know that you would refuse to answer serious questions?

I am shocked, SHOCKED I SAY!

IF defending the weak and oppressed is a reason for war, why did we leave Afghanistan in shambles?

How about just these two questions? One?

Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?
[...]
What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it?

Yes, opposing Russia in Ukraine is a vital American national interest.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Goofy thread.

Being opposed to an ever-expanding proxy war with Russia does not mean someone aligns themselves with Russia. You know that's true but you're desperate to defend the indefensible.

Instead of your diatribe, take a risk, and answer these reasonable questions from Tucker Carlson to the Republican candidates. This will be a lot shorter than your essay.

Won't it be great when the Democrat candidates answer the same questions?

Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?
[...]
What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it?
[...]
What is the limit of funding and material you would be willing to send to the government of Ukraine?
[...]
Should the United States support regime change in Russia?
[...]
Given that Russia’s economy and currency are stronger than before the war, do you believe that U.S. sanctions have been effective?
[...]
Do you believe the United States faces the risk of nuclear war with Russia?

It is difficult to believe you are being objective when you begin your post by accepting the Russian position this is a proxy war being waged by the US against Russia rather than considering this may be a case in which US interests and Ukrainian interests align. Of course it is possible to oppose aid to Ukraine without supporting Russia, but I've never seen a compelling argument to support such opposition, however once one starts making claims Ukraine shouldn't be helped because it has a problem with corruption or because Zelensky is a cocaine addict or that he is stealing US aid money, then one is no longer looking out for US interests and is promoting Russian interests. So, on to your questions.

Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?

Absolutely. Neither the global economy nor the US economy can grow and prosper without international trade and international trade cannot flourish in the absence of internationally accepted rules of order. In the invasion of Ukraine, Putin violated all relevant international laws and treaties and has made clear he believes all land that ever belonged to Russia still belongs to Russia and he won't be stopped from claiming it by any laws or treaties, therefor an environment in which international trade can flourish cannot be reestablished until Russia's neo colonial ambitions are quelled. If not in Ukraine, then where?

What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it?

Our objective is to help Ukraine to force Russia out of Ukraine and to continue economic pressure until Russia accepts international rules of order so that the global economy and the US economy can continue to grow. We will all know when we have achieved that.

What is the limit of funding and material you would be willing to send to the government of Ukraine?

However much it takes to force Russia to stand down from its neo colonial ambitions that are disrupting the environment for international trade. It is impossible to state a dollar amount at this time, but I am confident that it will be less than allowing Russia to continue rampaging through eastern Europe and the Baltic states.

Should the United States support regime change in Russia?

Regime change for the better in Russia is very unlikely since all of Putin's challengers are either dead or in prison, but if a new government should come to power that embodied American values of Democracy and individual rights, then certainly the US should support it.

Given that Russia’s economy and currency are stronger than before the war, do you believe that U.S. sanctions have been effective?

It is not a given that the ruble and the Russian economy are stronger than they were before the war. The ruble has been manipulated by a Russian law forbidding Russians from exchanging it for dollars or euros and Russia demanding payment for oil and gas in rubles so its exchange rate does not indicate the strength of the Russian economy. According to the Russian Finance Ministry, Russia's oil and gas revenues for Jan and Feb are down by nearly 50% from last year, partly because of the sanctions. Yes, they are working.

Russia’s Revenue From Oil and Gas Almost Halved in February

Russia’s oil and gas revenue almost halved in February after Western restrictions on crude and petroleum products took effect and gas exports to Europe fell.

www.bloomberg.com

Russiaâs budget deficit may reach $24.61 bln in January

"According to preliminary estimates, the volume of federal budget revenues in January 2023 amounted to 1.356 trillion rubles, which is 35% lower than the volume of revenues in January 2022," the Ministry of Finance says

tass.com

Do you believe the United States faces the risk of nuclear war with Russia?

We have faced that risk since the 1950's and then as now neither country can attack the other without being destroyed itself, so the risks remain minimal.

Let me add a question to your list. Why should the US play such an outsized role in maintaining international order?

The US economy is so much larger than the economy of any other nation and the US military is so much more powerful than that of any other nations and US leadership in world events is so much more respected than the leadership of any other free world country that it would be impossible to reestablish international rules of order in which international trade would flourish without the US playing a major role.

 

[Markle]

Yes, opposing Russia in Ukraine is a vital American national interest.

How?

1. Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?

2. What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it?

3. What is the limit of funding and material you would be willing to send to the government of Ukraine?

4. Should the United States support regime change in Russia?

5. Given that Russia’s economy and currency are stronger than before the war, do you believe that U.S. sanctions have been effective?

6. Do you believe the United States faces the risk of nuclear war with Russia?

 

[shockedcanadian]

It is difficult to believe you are being objective when you begin your post by accepting the Russian position this is a proxy war being waged by the US against Russia rather than considering this may be a case in which US interests and Ukrainian interests align. Of course it is possible to oppose aid to Ukraine without supporting Russia, but I've never seen a compelling argument to support such opposition, however once one starts making claims Ukraine shouldn't be helped because it has a problem with corruption or because Zelensky is a cocaine addict or that he is stealing US aid money, then one is no longer looking out for US interests and is promoting Russian interests. So, on to your questions.

Is opposing Russia in Ukraine a vital American national strategic interest?

Absolutely. Neither the global economy nor the US economy can grow and prosper without international trade and international trade cannot flourish in the absence of internationally accepted rules of order. In the invasion of Ukraine, Putin violated all relevant international laws and treaties and has made clear he believes all land that ever belonged to Russia still belongs to Russia and he won't be stopped from claiming it by any laws or treaties, therefor an environment in which international trade can flourish cannot be reestablished until Russia's neo colonial ambitions are quelled. If not in Ukraine, then where?

What specifically is our objective in Ukraine, and how will we know when we’ve achieved it?

Our objective is to help Ukraine to force Russia out of Ukraine and to continue economic pressure until Russia accepts international rules of order so that the global economy and the US economy can continue to grow. We will all know when we have achieved that.

What is the limit of funding and material you would be willing to send to the government of Ukraine?

However much it takes to force Russia to stand down from its neo colonial ambitions that are disrupting the environment for international trade. It is impossible to state a dollar amount at this time, but I am confident that it will be less than allowing Russia to continue rampaging through eastern Europe and the Baltic states.

Should the United States support regime change in Russia?

Regime change for the better in Russia is very unlikely since all of Putin's challengers are either dead or in prison, but if a new government should come to power that embodied American values of Democracy and individual rights, then certainly the US should support it.

Given that Russia’s economy and currency are stronger than before the war, do you believe that U.S. sanctions have been effective?

It is not a given that the ruble and the Russian economy are stronger than they were before the war. The ruble has been manipulated by a Russian law forbidding Russians from exchanging it for dollars or euros and Russia demanding payment for oil and gas in rubles so its exchange rate does not indicate the strength of the Russian economy. According to the Russian Finance Ministry, Russia's oil and gas revenues for Jan and Feb are down by nearly 50% from last year, partly because of the sanctions. Yes, they are working.

Russia’s Revenue From Oil and Gas Almost Halved in February

Russia’s oil and gas revenue almost halved in February after Western restrictions on crude and petroleum products took effect and gas exports to Europe fell.

www.bloomberg.com

Russiaâs budget deficit may reach $24.61 bln in January

"According to preliminary estimates, the volume of federal budget revenues in January 2023 amounted to 1.356 trillion rubles, which is 35% lower than the volume of revenues in January 2022," the Ministry of Finance says

tass.com

Do you believe the United States faces the risk of nuclear war with Russia?

We have faced that risk since the 1950's and then as now neither country can attack the other without being destroyed itself, so the risks remain minimal.

Let me add a question to your list. Why should the US play such an outsized role in maintaining international order?

The US economy is so much larger than the economy of any other nation and the US military is so much more powerful than that of any other nations and US leadership in world events is so much more respected than the leadership of any other free world country that it would be impossible to reestablish international rules of order in which international trade would flourish without the US playing a major role.

You make good points. I would actually disagree with the proxy war argument though as being Russian talking points. It doesnt matter what Putin says, Russia supported Americas enemies in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan. America funded Russias enemies in Arghanistan, East Germany, Hungary, Czech Republic etc (all of the Eastern B!oc countries actually). To me a proxy war just means "we confront you through assistance of the enemy that you attack or try to politically control in your orbit". The world understands that Putin created the fertile ground for this proxy situation due to Ukraines size and being the victim. With his background, he more than anyone understands how geopolitical forces strategically operate,.especially with history as.a guide to what can happen if an aggressor in Europe isn't stopped early.

 

[toomuchtime_]

You make good points. I would actually disagree with the proxy war argument though as being Russian talking points. It doesnt matter what Putin says, Russia supported Americas enemies in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan. America funded Russias enemies in Arghanistan, East Germany, Hungary, Czech Republic etc (all of the Eastern B!oc countries actually). To me a proxy war just means "we confront you through assistance of the enemy that you attack or try to politically control in your orbit". The world understands that Putin created the fertile ground for this proxy situation due to Ukraines size and being the victim. With his background, he more than anyone understands how geopolitical forces strategically operate,.especially with history as.a guide to what can happen if an aggressor in Europe isn't stopped early.

I object to the term, proxy war, because it suggests the US had some motivation of its own for wanting to fight Russia, but that clearly is not true. Even after the 2014 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the US refused to send lethal weapons to Ukraine until Trump became president and even then it was more of a gesture than a serious effort to arm Ukraine for war. Even when Russia invaded, Biden didn't rush to send weapons to Ukraine, but offered Zelensky safe passage to the US, and even when Zelensky inspired the Ukrainian people and most of the of the people in the world by refusing that offer, saying, I need ammo not a ride, still, neither the US nor NATO rushed weapons to Ukraine until the Ukrainians proved to the world that this was their war they would fight with or without any help when they chased the Russian invaders from the outskirts of Kiev back toward the Russian border. There simply is no basis in fact for calling this a US proxy war.

 

[zaangalewa]

You're a bit lost in the translation, as well as you also losing sight of our OP's intent on it being a US proxy war.

With proxy war has the current situation absolutelly nothing to do. You see the glow rise of a deadly world war. Everyone on our planet is in danger to lose more than only everything.

I continue to see a mass slaughter of the Ukrainian people and a mass migration from the Ukraine by the fortunate ones.

And I see America's track record on continuous wars of aggression since the end of WW2 as being a factor that can't be ignored.

Neither Russia or America can win this war but the Ukrainian people have already lost it.

What a nonsense. The Ukrainian people wan the respect of all serios men of our planet. It's unbelievable that they are resisting now since more than one year against the extremely deadly Russian aggression and criminal invasion of their country.

 

[zaangalewa]

No. It was EU,

The EU did do what? To start war? ... Do you have any idea how "war" is written in the EU? Does anyone in the EU know this? What is your absurde idea about the EU?

who started Maidan in Ukraine and overthroned Yanukovich. You started the war against Russia, and you should fight it for your own.

Do you seriosly expect the EU should do a war on Russia? ... Hmmm ... Make a membership request and the EU will tell you why you are still not able to become a member of the EU. Then work through this few thousands of lists and you will become a happy country. A happy Russia - what will be in the end the greatest paradox since Russia exists.

 

[zaangalewa]

The problem is that the Russians are doing the same thing. They defend smaller allied nations of Donbass (DPR and LPR) against evil, Satanistic and neo-Nazi western half-animals ...

I hope you know that you sound like a Nazi. It's always good to know on what real reason to have to go to hell.

 

[zaangalewa]

luiza

To call me a liar makes nothing true what you do not say, Russian.

 

[luiza]

I hope you know that you sound like a Nazi. It's always good to know on what real reason to have to go to hell.

Try and stop posting lavatory wall graffiti and teach yourself what being a Nazi is .

Try a definition of Eugenics plus NO free speech and you have a simple definition of Fascism .
Flavour the fascist philosophy with a specific view of racial superiority and you have the type which labels it Nazi Fascism.

This might help you also avoid being labelled as factually ignorant once people like you start throwing childish ad hominem insults .

 

[zaangalewa]

... Russia's oil and gas revenues for Jan and Feb are down by nearly 50% from last year, partly because of the sanctions. Yes, they are working.

Exactly. Yóu sell the same mass of oil and gas - but you get only less than the half price from India and China.