Zone1 Why the rosary is a most important prayer/meditation all Christians should say daily

[Carl in Michigan]

According to the Bible, Catholics do not bow down to stone statues, or any kind of artwork, and nor do they seek after a sign. The Sign of the Cross is all the sign needed.

What does puzzle me is the great need non-Catholics seem to have to fabricate Catholic beliefs and practices when Catholics and Orthodox follow the entire Bible and Apostolic Traditions more meticulously than any other Christian sect. A much better case could be made that Catholics/Orthodox take the Bible and Apostolic Traditions much too seriously and that they should lighten up.

Mary sleeps in the grave as ALL humans do awaiting the Resurrection of the dead at Christ's return.

 

[Meriweather]

Wouldn't you be wiser to believe scripture?

Who were the mediums and necromancers at Fatima? Note it has been agreed that Elijah and Moses could appear without being accused of being unbiblical. Jesus could rise from the dead and be seen without mediums and necromancers as well. Mary's appearances certainly aren't unique in this regard.

 

[Meriweather]

Mary sleeps in the grave as ALL humans do awaiting the Resurrection of the dead at Christ's return.

Are you aware that not all believe as you do? Many believe that when death occurs, the spirit returns to God, who is God of both the living and those who have passed on. Jesus told his Apostles he goes to prepare a place for them. Do you imagine Jesus is making up beds?

 

[The Irish Ram]

My point is that children don't always make the best examples of dependability.

But Buttercup brought up a good point about the angel of light. And that corresponds with what John says:

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God

You test a spirit by comparing/verifying what they say with scripture. What Mary supposedly said to the kids is not found in scripture.

Was the apparition tested, or was it just taken for granted that it was Mary because the apparition manifested it's self to look like Mary?

 

[Meriweather]

You test a spirit by comparing/verifying what they say with scripture. What Mary supposedly said to the kids is not found in scripture.

What are you saying was not found in scripture?

 

[buttercup]

Who were the mediums and necromancers at Fatima? Note it has been agreed that Elijah and Moses could appear without being accused of being unbiblical. Jesus could rise from the dead and be seen without mediums and necromancers as well. Mary's appearances certainly aren't unique in this regard.

With all due respect, you're ignoring many things, and being very selective in what you're choosing to look at and not look at.

You're acting as if there's no reason whatsoever for people to doubt that the apparition at Fatima was Mary.

But that's just not the case.

Here are some facts, and reasons why many Christians have discerned that the Fatima apparitions were a deception:

1. The Fatima apparitions stated numerous things that contradict the word of God. Any true (godly) apparition would never contradict scripture.
   
   
2. The Fatima apparition promoted itself and asked to be honored. Any true godly apparition would point to and honor God, not itself.
   
   
3. The Fatima apparition was said to have contradicted its own words by appearing on a different day than it said it would. (False prophecy) Any true apparition sent from God would not contradict itself.
   
   
4. The Fatima apparition added on to the simple Gospel, creating a false Gospel, which is more about religion, than biblical truth. Any true godly apparition would never mislead people by adding religious rules or customs (especially customs with a pagan origin) to the simplicity of the Gospel.

I could go on, but I could have just stopped at the first one, that alone is enough to prove it was a false apparition. In other words, not of God, but a deception of the enemy.

An important thing to know is that the enemy of God is very good at deceiving people by mixing truth with lies. When truth is mixed with lies, that makes it even more deceptive than something that's 100% lies, because the truths make it more believable. The enemy knows that, and that's why truth is often mixed with lies, to deceive and mislead people.

This is why it's so important to - as the bible says - test the spirits and see if it lines up with the word of God. If it contradicts it, then it's exactly what Jesus warned us against. Again, the bible clearly states that even satan himself can masquerade as an angel of light.

All this focus on Mary is not what God wanted, and it's not what Mary herself wanted. The Irish Ram posted this scripture earlier, but it bears repeating. If you're going to meditate, meditate on this:

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." ​

​

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."​

Luke 11:27- 28​

​

 

[The Irish Ram]

Who were the mediums and necromancers at Fatima? Note it has been agreed that Elijah and Moses could appear without being accused of being unbiblical. Jesus could rise from the dead and be seen without mediums and necromancers as well. Mary's appearances certainly aren't unique in this regard.

You read the scripture wrong. That is why the verse keeps saying "or" :
anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead.
They don't all have to show up.

 

[Meriweather]

You're acting as if there's no reason whatsoever for people to doubt that the apparition at Fatima was Mary.

No. I have said it is up to each person to decide that for him/herself. What I object to is your determination to decide the matter for everyone.

 

[The Irish Ram]

What are you saying was not found in scripture?

The Bible never references a rosary and no mention of the rosary prayer.
You got that from a Catholic man in 1214:
In 1214 St. Dominic had a vision of Mary. She is said to have presented him with the rosary, both the beads and the prayers to be prayed.

 

[buttercup]

No. I have said it is up to each person to decide that for him/herself. What I object to is your determination to decide the matter for everyone.

I'm not deciding for everyone. I said that I believe it's a deception, and that other Christians have concluded the same thing. But that doesn't mean I'm saying that all people must agree with our conclusion.

That said, I do think it's important for all Christians to look at the facts and "test the spirits" by measuring it against the scriptures. But that's not my words, that's what the bible clearly warns us to do.

 

[Meriweather]

The Fatima apparitions stated numerous things that contradict the word of God. Any true (godly) apparition would never contradict scripture.

Specifically, what are these contradictions.

The Fatima apparition promoted itself and asked to be honored. Any true godly apparition would point to and honor God, not itself.

Do you want all you say to be dishonored? You are putting more onto the word 'honored' than intended. Honoring/respecting what one says should not be elevated to anything greater.

The Fatima apparition was said to have contradicted its own words by appearing on a different day than it said it would. (False prophecy) Any true apparition sent from God would not contradict itself.

Ah, you mean when the children were in jail on the day of the scheduled appearance?

The Fatima apparition added on to the simple Gospel, creating a false Gospel, which is more about religion, than biblical truth. Any true godly apparition would never mislead people by adding religious rules or customs (especially customs with a pagan origin) to the simplicity of the Gospel.

Specifically what did she add to the Gospel?

 

[Meriweather]

I could go on, but I could have just stopped at the first one, that alone is enough to prove it was a false apparition. In other words, not of God, but a deception of the enemy.

Specifically, what were the deceptions?

 

[Meriweather]

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
Luke 11:27- 28

Already have. Was Mary blessed because she gave birth and nursed Jesus, or was she blessed because she said, I am the handmaiden of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to his word. Mary had heard the word of God. And Mary had obeyed it. How can you not see that Jesus was pointing to what made Mary truly blessed? Did you not read the beginning of Luke's Gospel? This should be easy to understand and very difficult to twist into some kind saying against Mary.

 

[Meriweather]

You read the scripture wrong. That is why the verse keeps saying "or" :
anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead.
They don't all have to show up.

The Necromancers or sorcerers or charmers don't even have to show up? Not even one? Amazing.

 

[Meriweather]

The Bible never references a rosary and no mention of the rosary prayer.
You got that from a Catholic man in 1214:
In 1214 St. Dominic had a vision of Mary. She is said to have presented him with the rosary, both the beads and the prayers to be prayed.

Does scripture mention:

Belief in God the Father Almighty Creator of heaven and earth
in Jesus Christ, his son, our Lord.

Does scripture mention:

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirt
Born of the Virgin Mary
Suffered, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead and rose again on the third day.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.
He will come to judge the living and the dead.

Does scripture mention The Lord's Prayer?
Does scripture mention we should give glory to God?
Does scripture mention the life and teachings of Jesus?

When you toss out the Rosary, you toss out all of the above because all of the above is what the Rosary is about and why it is a prayer.

You declaring none of the above matters one whit is what goes against scripture.

 

[buttercup]

Specifically, what were the deceptions?

This could be a thread of its own. If you want a complete list, it would take a good chunk of time to compile it all. I already took a good chunk of time writing out my earlier post, and I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend all my night here doing something that YOU yourself should do.

I haven't read the entirety of ALL the words allegedly from the Fatima apparitions, but I did read a number of things that were either flatly false, or partially false (and therefore misleading.)

Here's one for you:

"Sacrifice yourself for sinners, and say often, especially when you make some sacrifice: 'Oh Jesus, this is for love of You, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.'"

There are so many things wrong with that. Not only was the apparition elevating itself to the level of God (we don't sin against Mary, we sin against God) but it also implies that Mary is perfect (immaculate, sinless) which is a Catholic teaching that is clearly unbiblical. Mary was / is a regular human being. She was and is not a deity.

Also, nowhere in the bible does it say that we are to make "reparations" for sins against Mary, I mean, that sentence alone should raise red flags for any bible-believing Christian, and that is just one out of a number of statements allegedly made by those apparitions that contradict or add on to the bible.

 

[Meriweather]

This could be a thread of its own. If you want a complete list, it would take a good chunk of time to compile it all. I already took a good chunk of time writing out my earlier post, and I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend all my night here doing something that YOU yourself should do.

And I have no wish to spend the night correcting you. Nor do I want a compiled list. I am fairly certain I can make my point with one item.

You seem to dismiss I have already gone over more reports and Fatima that I suspect you ever will. I have already done the research. But I am not going to second guess anyone.

 

[Meriweather]

"Sacrifice yourself for sinners, and say often, especially when you make some sacrifice: 'Oh Jesus, this is for love of You, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.'"

There are so many things wrong with that. Not only was the apparition elevating itself to the level of God (we don't sin against Mary, we sin against God) but it also implies that Mary is perfect (immaculate, sinless) which is a Catholic teaching that is clearly unbiblical. Mary was / is a regular human being. She was and is not a deity.

Also, nowhere in the bible does it say that we are to make "reparations" for sins against Mary, I mean, that sentence alone should raise red flags for any bible-believing Christian, and that is just one out of a number of statements allegedly made by those apparitions that contradict or add on to the bible.

1. Who gave Mary an Immaculate Heart? It signifies purity and the immense love Mary has for God. Recall Luke's gospel telling us the angel notes Mary is full of grace (hence the purity of heart). Catholics do not believe Mary is a deity or ever was. What a thing to even suggest!

2. Why is it so hard to understand that Mary is not talking about herself, but of sins against the love of God!

The determination to make Mary into some kind of villain is amazing. Perhaps keep in mind that Jesus said that there were many against him, and his followers could expect the same. Who would have ever guessed that it was those who claim to be his followers who are so against other of his followers--including his own mother!

Once more, it is one thing if one does not want to accept private revelations. It is something else entirely--it is shameful--to twist that revelation and Jesus' mother into something evil.

 

[buttercup]

1. Who gave Mary an Immaculate Heart? It signifies purity and the immense love Mary has for God. Recall Luke's gospel telling us the angel notes Mary is full of grace (hence the purity of heart). Catholics do not believe Mary is a deity or ever was. What a thing to even suggest!

2. Why is it so hard to understand that Mary is not talking about herself, but of sins against the love of God!

The determination to make Mary into some kind of villain is amazing. Perhaps keep in mind that Jesus said that there were many against him, and his followers could expect the same. Who would have ever guessed that it was those who claim to be his followers who are so against other of his followers--including his own mother!

Once more, it is one thing if one does not want to accept private revelations. It is something else entirely--it is shameful--to twist that revelation and Jesus' mother into something evil.

That is a viciously false accusation. I never claimed, thought, or remotely implied that Mary is a villain! And neither did any other Christian on this thread. I admire Mary greatly for her faith, her strength and her servant's heart. And I don't want to speak for others, but I think it's safe to say that the other Christians here feel the same way.

We were talking about the apparition, not Mary. And you can't say you didn't know that because I and others made it clear that we believe there was an actual apparition, but it wasn't Mary.

And no, in the words I quoted the apparition did not say "sins against the love of God." It said "sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary." So you're changing the words. You can say that that's what you think the apparition meant, but that's not what the words plainly state.

As for the first point, are you claiming that Catholics don't believe Mary was and is sinless? I made the statement that she is not a deity, I didn't state that Catholics believe she is a deity. That said, some do treat her like a deity. But the question is, do Catholics or do Catholics not teach that she was sinless?

Here's something on this issue:

The encyclical Mystici corporis Christi from Pope Pius XII (1943) holds that Mary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal". The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that by the grace of God "Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long."​

​

source​

If that is NOT what Catholicism teachers, then that's good because Mary was not sinless.

But I'm seeing conflicting info out there on this. I could post excerpts from Catholic websites that state she was sinless and never sinned. But some other Catholic sources are not quite as clear.

So which is it?

(Just in case this is going to be your response, being "favored" does not mean sinless/ perfect.)

 

[The Irish Ram]

The Necromancers or sorcerers or charmers don't even have to show up? Not even one? Amazing.

"or" is a conjunction. It indicates an alternative.