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Does it get any better?
- Jan 6, 2009
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If speaking truth is what you're referring too, then you're absolutely correct!
why not just sit on your butt and pray?
- Thread starter srlip
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If speaking truth is what you're referring too, then you're absolutely correct!
PostmodernProph
....fully immersed....
well, atheists seem to get mad and accuse of bearing false witness if I don't stick to what's obvious.....
If Hollie were even remotely sincere in her questions, you might have a point. Prof is more on target that her goal is to just be a nasty *****, and she does it quite well.
Yep. The angry, self-hating fundie syndrome.
PostmodernProph
....fully immersed....
and you conclude all this from my response to "what animals were in the garden"?.....lol....
first logical error.....evil is not a "thing" to be discovered, it is an action to be experienced......one cannot be disobedient unless there is something which is prescribed.....eating of that one tree was forbidden......to do what was forbidden results in experiencing disobedience, thus knowledge of the evil......
obviously yes....
second logical error.....(though it stems from the same fault)....again evil is not some material thing......the actions of Satan do not alter the actions of the humans.....they are still disobedient.....
since we never even got there, we are not left there.....thus, nothing to actually "get around"......
disobedience is not the act of God.......
by no means was mankind precluded from obedience.....what is communicated in this portion of scripture is that mankind, presented with hardly a burdensome requirement (just leave one tree alone out of a whole garden full) and being fully familiar with the creating deity (walking and speaking with him on a daily basis) was still capable of disobedience......it is absurd to pretend that an action that they willfully took in those circumstances is evidence there is no free will.......
the "omniscience of God" argument overlooks one obvious fault......God is omniscient......he knows what actions we will take.....however, we are not omniscient, nor has he communicated his knowledge of the future to us as individuals......thus the fact he knows what we will choose does not impact our choice.......we are still choosing, we are not compelled....
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Newby
Does it get any better?
- Jan 6, 2009
- 9,094
- 1,750
- 190
If Hollie were even remotely sincere in her questions, you might have a point. Prof is more on target that her goal is to just be a nasty *****, and she does it quite well.
Yep. The angry, self-hating fundie syndrome.
I truly do appreciate your 'concern' Hollie, however, I am well loved by my entire family and many firends, and I have a very nice life without hate or anger involved. As I said, I have been praying that all the hate you harbor is lifted from your heart. I realize at this point it would be nothing short of a miracle, but God is in the miracle business, so there may be hope for you yet!
Nope. It was clear you had never taken the time to do anything but skim over the genesis tale. Like most believers, you simply and mindlessly accepted the tales and fables of the religion you were born into and were never allowed to question the dogma.....lol......PostmodernProph said:
Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do with, nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice[/quote]
Quite obviously the error is yours.PostmodernProph said:
Your habit is to selectively edit out, parse and "quote" snippets of comments out of their original context because you find that to be a method whereby you can make excuses for the genesis tale that self-refutes.
Your error is suggesting that tales and fables of supernatural events are subordinate to "logic".
Here again your selective editing allows you to ignore the context of the genesis tale.
________________________________________
Commentary: Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.
In the context of the tale, there is no definition of good and evil prior to the gods allegedly preparing the so-called “test” for A&E. Yahweh doesn't bother to tell A&E there would be consequences of eternal proportions for them and all of humanity that follows. Bereft of knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree, they can't tell what constitutes "good" or "bad" behavior in the first place?
Your very argument pinpoints the fallacy. Define "bad" to a creature blinded to the knowledge of what is good and what is evil (evil being a cogent of bad here). It may seem simple that they should have just obeyed because the creature that created them said so, but you say that as the benefactor of their sacrifice, don't you (as you believe this tale)? Strip yourself of the knowledge that there is such a thing as obeying or disobeying being either good or bad and then give yourself the test. You will likely have a 50-50 chance of success. Add in purposeful temptation and you're just about guaranteed to fail.
It's pretty clear the conditions of the test obliterate any sense of either fair play or free will.
Further, you again selectively edited and parsed out the gods command that whereby:
________________________________________
Commentary: Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.
Did you hope to ignore the part where your gods lied while satan told the truth? For the gods, Who, according to the bible, hates knowledge so much he made it the one thing forbidden in Eden-- "ye shall eat of all things but not of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge -- for on that day, ye shall die" (they didn't die, as the serpent pointed out, they lived; God lied, Satan told the truth-- how ironic)
Hollie said:
PostmodernProph[quote said:
As usual, you selectively edit and parse the text hoping to re-write the context. In context we have:
So, we have a deep problem in that your gods lie, deceive and tempt. As noted, apply those behaviors against the model of "perfection": your gods.
PostmodernProph said:
As with your first misapplication of attempting to apply "logic" to supernatural events, you make a second error. You are hoping to excuse the sinful actions of your gods (your gods lie, deceive and tempt), and then blame A&E for being "disobedient" when they were set-up for failure by your gods.
Per the tale in context:
Hollie said:
Of course we "got there". Your gods prepared a "test" the A&E were bound to fail.PostmodernProph said:
Words are concepts given labels, nothing more. In the context of these discussions, good and evil are abstract or non-material concepts and as such are only meaningful in the context of human descriptions. The answer is that there is no definition of good and evil prior to the gods allegedly preparing the so-called “test” for A&E. Define "bad" to a creature blinded to the knowledge of what is good and what is evil.
PostmodernProph said:
Pointless. Sin is the failure of the test -- but if sin is evil, and man was kept from knowing what good and evil are (only the tree could supply that knowledge and it, "the tree", was told not to indulge), then he is precluded from being able to pass the test.
PostmodernProph
....fully immersed....
....ah yes.....skimmed it in the original Hebrew.....
.....lol......if that were true, wouldn't I be a young earther like you and the Rev. Phelps?....
on the other hand, it may be because I am focusing on the part where you fucked up....because once you've fucked up, the rest is of no consequence....
so, what in your opinion is the context of Genesis 3?...
there is no need to define "bad".......what happened WAS simple.....they were told "Don't eat from that tree"........they did......
they made no "sacrifice" nor did anything they do benefit me....
obviously not, since having that knowledge I'm still disobedient.....its more likely a zero percent chance....
to the contrary, it was still their choice, as it is mine....
there was no lie....its just that you're incredibly stupid....are Adam and Eve still alive?....
.
that makes no difference when your description is wrong, sorry......
only to one who rejects the truth.....
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You might be interested to know that you agree with Jesus:
God is not an ATM. You don't push the right buttons in the right order and see the goodies fall out. He's a soveriegn being who decides, based on His greater wisdom, what to give and when. Perhaps this is what you were talking about:
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Ah yes. Your endless cutting and pasting of verses. Providing a rote list of verses, out of context does nothing to make a coherent argument. Your necessary task here is not to make lists, but to provide a good reason for actually considering the items on your list as likely. Until you can do so, you might as well be taking literature courses. Because you are not defending a serious idea here with science, you are instead defending dogma with science fiction.PostmodernProph said:
As we see with regularity, your knowledge of the religion you were born into and never actually studied leaves you defending tales and fables rife with errors, omissions and contradictions.
Were you not essentially arguing as a classic Young Earth'er / Flat Earth'er, I would expect you to actually have a working rebuttal to the errors, omissions and contradictions within the genesis tale, which (of course) Young Earth Creationists and their ID brethren do not. Flat Earth'ism has always consisted of arguments in favor of magic and supernaturalism. This is also the manner in which you are arguing. You gave no one any reason to see you as anything but a pedestrian Young Earth Creationists.PostmodernProph said:
For any to take seriously your defense of supernaturalism, I would expect you to explicitly lay out the mechanisms for for resolving the absurdities within the genesis tale rather than rhetorically (instead of actually) distancing yourself from the organized YEC movement.
You may not claim to be a YEC'ist. But do not pretend that you are not arguing from a YEC'ist point of view.
It's probably best that you resort to flailing around and hurling your cute swearing as a means to distance yourself from actually making a defendable case for supernatural events.PostmodernProph said:
I actually anticipated that you would be unable to address an uncomfortable (for an extremist), and damaging assessment of the genesis tale. Afterall, the genesis tale sets in motion the rest of the biblical tales.
You can deny and evade, but, what we are left with is this: Evil is of God -- no way around that hence, God is all good and all evil at the same time and is completely self-contradictory. Sin is the failure of the test -- but if sin is evil, and man was kept from knowing what good and evil are (only the tree could supply that knowledge and it, "the tree", was told not to indulge), then he is precluded from being able to pass the test. God must know this, and God, being omniscient, must know which way Man would choose. Hence, free will is an illusion.
Hence, things are the way they are because God wants them precisely this way, and any claim that God didn't set out to create Satan on purpose is disproved. And this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc., none of which are essential to a world created by a God. He could have just as easily made it otherwise, he just didn't.
The context you were already given? You mean that context?PostmodernProph said:
Of course there was a reason to define "bad". In the context of the tale, there is no definition of good and evil prior to the gods allegedly preparing the so-called “test” for A&E. Yahweh doesn't bother to tell A&E there would be consequences of eternal proportions for them and all of humanity that follows. Bereft of knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree, they can't tell what constitutes "good" or "bad" behavior in the first place?PostmodernProph said:
Of course they did. You have the benefit of ritual animal sacrifice.PostmodernProph said:
You can choose to live under a delusion that mankind is sinful and is in need of threats of eternal torment for not subscribing to a (historically), more modern invention of angry Deities.PostmodernProph said:
So much of your commentary is characteristic of a child who has not developed the cognitive skills to make choices and come to rational conclusions. Can someone sweep away facts and evidence when they are counter to the faith? Yes. You can. But you know what? That is symptomatic of what a delusional person does. But wait, it gets worse-- because to rationalize absurdities and provide for self-deceit because the tales and fables do not meet some arbitrary standard one holds as defining the religion is an utter lack of accepting responsibility for what the ideology teaches. Trying to force the conclusion of an argument to contradict the evidence really dismantles the theism. The errors, omissions and contradictions the extremist allows for define huge insurmountable problems when defending the ideology, so the list of exceptions one must grant them is staggering to the point of fracturing.
It's hardly a choice when none of the implications of their actions that would affect all of humanity was witheld from them. Why are your gods so deceitful?PostmodernProph said:
Of course there was a lie. Your gods lied. Are really this clueless as to the genesis tale?
Your gods made fruit theft forbidden in Eden -- "ye shall eat of all things but not of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge -- for on that day, ye shall die" (they didn't die, as the serpent pointed out, they lived; God lied, Satan told the truth-- how ironic)
You're having issues dealing with a cogent reality. And I noticed with amusement that you can't present an argument to support your claim.PostmodernProph said:
SoÂ… let's look at this from the perspective of truth. When people say they believe in an entity that cannot be seen, cannot be felt, exists outside of the natural realm in an asserted supernatural realm, that has attributes we need to worship but cannot understand or even describe, who lives in eternity in both directions, who can create existence from nothing and is uncreated himself and uses methods and means we can never know or hope to understand, that stands outside proof which is exactly why it's for certain he exists-- I would say that qualifies as being under a delusion.PostmodernProph said:
HenryBHough
Diamond Member
I don't know of any study that has confirmed any kind of 6th sense. Similary, feelings (or emotions), you may have for christ I can't account for.
Feelings and emotions are a function of chemical reactions in the brain.
An explanation for "feelings" regarding déjà vu, for example is very simple and interesting. The brain is in two separate hemispheres with a cortex crossover between them. Sometimes, one hemisphere lags behind in perception, so in effect, the left side of the brain is experiencing something and your right hemisphere is slightly out of sync, and so when it catches up you get the distinct yet vague impression that you have “done this before” – and in a sense, you have, by a few milliseconds. You are simply assuming a spiritual nature for these things, while there are explanations that are grounded in our biology
They can hear God's voice. I heard God speaking through scripture in Church, called up a friend in another country, spoke the scripture and it had the same effect here that it had there because people are conscious of God's voice speaking through scripture. They get startled, Hollie and their conscience is pricked.
The revivals were started because they heard God's word speaking through scripture.
The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647) by Various | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org
What the Westminster Confession of Faith helps me prove is that it isn't just me but we're having this coordinated mass delusion which I think gives us more weight that there is a God behind this mass delusion but we hear Him and you don't.
Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
I remember doing something I could get suspended for in a secular high school during lunch time. The teacher made me throw my lunch out. I spoke the word of God to Him, he had fear on his face, his conscience was bothering him and said that no one spoke to him like this before and he let me out of a suspension. It was the Holy Spirit, Hollie.
I wish I spoke to him before he made me throw my lunch out.
HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
Symptoms(mental illness)
By Mayo Clinic Staff
Signs and symptoms of mental illness can vary, depending on the particular disorder, circumstances and other factors. Mental illness symptoms can affect emotions, thoughts and behaviors.
Examples of signs and symptoms include:
•Feeling sad or down
•Confused thinking or reduced ability to concentrate
•Excessive fears or worries, or extreme feelings of guilt
•Extreme mood changes of highs and lows
•Withdrawal from friends and activities
•Significant tiredness, low energy or problems sleeping
•Detachment from reality (delusions), paranoia or hallucinations
•Inability to cope with daily problems or stress
•Trouble understanding and relating to situations and to people
•Alcohol or drug abuse
•Major changes in eating habits
•Sex drive changes
•Excessive anger, hostility or violence
•Suicidal thinking
Mental illness Symptoms - Diseases and Conditions - Mayo Clinic
If you hear gods voice that's fine. Other people embracing other religions will claim to hear (have heard), other gods.
Who's right (if anyone), and who's wrong?
I don't doubt they are hearing them. I believe them hearing them 100%.
They are called Demons.
I don't.
I've never seen any reliable study to support such a thing.
In an environment where a group of people were sitting behind you, I don't believe you could reliably identify if any one individual was staring at you.
It isn't science because there are people with no chemical imbalance with no serious illness who believe in God. You have no biological or pathological test.
You're not a doctor.
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