does the Bible list every animal that was in the garden?......I know the book of Job lists many that God says he created but I'm not aware of any verses that says its a complete list......oh wait.....you were just being a nasty ***** weren't you....fooled me for a minute......
You fundies do recoil when your gods and bibles are questioned for accuracy and consistency.
How strange that I'm a ***** for daring to question those things. What a shame that you feel so threatened by mere questioning as to the accuracy of the bibles.
Why a talking snake in the garden vs... Oh, I don't know, say a talking camel?
If a person is not allowed to question the Bible than no one will ever explore the religion. Hollie is right to ask for explanations. If the answers don't convince her than she knows what is best for her.
Thanks, RandomVariable. At least for me, you've highlighted the most basic and profound element separating faith and science. Faith cannot be used as a tool to access knowledge because it does not require the standards of evidence required by science.. Faith-based assertions carry validity
(sic) not because there is any criteria to support the belief structure, but because a group of people deem it so, and by definition, faith asks that one does not question validity. If one is questioning their faith, it is considered that they are also
losing their faith, not strengthening it.
I've been pressing the self-entitled
prophet on biblical genesis to test his knowledge on the matter. He has none. He has simply accepted the tale, ignored the irreconciable errors and contradictions and proceeds on as if those errors and contradictions don't exist.
Well, let's look at the source material, why don't we (KJV):
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Genesis 2
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
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Commentary: God has created the plants (which would include trees) and then creates man. Then he plants the garden and places man there. We on the same page so far?
Let's continue.
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16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
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Commentary:
Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do with, nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.
Moving on:
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Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
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Now we have two questions:
1. Does this serpent lie, deceive, and tempt ("yes" to all three)-- and are any of these behaviors sinful? To answer this, apply them to the model of perfection, God. Can this God...
Lie? No, it would be sinful of God to lie and God by definition is sinless.
Deceive? No, it would be sinful of God to decieve and God by definition is sinless.
Tempt? Well, perhaps towards good, but the context here is towards disobedience and thus would be sinful, and of course it would be sinful of God to tempt and God by definition is sinless.
So we can agree that the behaviors of the serpent are pretty much sinful and none of them could be applied to the perfection of God within the narrative.
Onto our second question:
Exactly
who (or what) is this serpent? It can only be one of three things:
A. An actual flesh and blood serpent
B. Satan
C. God
If it is A., and if it sins (and it does) then sin has been introduced into the world by a flesh and blood creation of god, and man has
not brought it into the world.
If it is B. and if Satan sins, then once again evil has been brought into the world by an agent other than Man (although not of flesh and blood)
If it is C. (and actually, as the Author of Everything then Everything is ultimately of God) then we have a very deep problem, and a nature that totally self-destructs as God is both perfect and imperfect at the same time (this is the core "proof" of God not existing that leads to an atheistic conclusion-- for all those endless demands that atheists prove that a nothing doesn't not exist, it is only this-- that God is a senseless mass of contradictary nonsense that can establish any sort of "prrof". A senseless mass of contradictory nonsense is indistinguishable from "nothingness"). For arguments sake, let's not head down C at all since in question 1 we have eliminated God being able to sin.
Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."
To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.
But let's even concede this point and see where it leads:
What we are left with is this: Evil is of God -- no way around that hence, God is all good and all evil at the same time and is completely self-contradictory. Sin is the failure of the test -- but if sin is evil, and man was kept from knowing what good and evil are (only the tree could supply that knowledge and it, "the tree", was told not to indulge), then he is precluded from being able to pass the test. God must know this, and God, being omniscient,
must know which way Man would choose. Hence, free will is an illusion.
Hence, things are the way they are because God wants them precisely this way, and any claim that God didn't set out to create Satan on purpose is disproved. And this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc., none of which are essential to a world created by a God. He could have just as easily made it otherwise, he just didn't.
You may be more cynical about them than I am!!
