why is religion important?

[amrchaos]

Read the Holy Bible and you shall know the truth, Amrchaos. Start in the New Testament and keep reading until you're saved.

I would suggest, IF I chose to suggest...
Start in the Jewish Scripture and then see all the errors purposely placed in the New Testament.

The fact is that the Quaran's concept of God is exactly the same as the Torah's.
You are NOT going to Hell.

Before you two start arguing about what I should read, let me explain that I am safely outside of Judeo-based theology and could read anyone of those books and walk away a non-believer.

In fact, I have read the bible several times and now trying to read and understand the Quran. (In fact, I may need pointers on how to get through that, the first book or Surah is so long that I was disinterested before putting it down. There is something strange about the style it is written in as well--at least the english version I have)

Simply put, the problem is that I do not believe in the myths of Judaism. From there, I don't see how I can believe in any religion based on those myths no matter how you twisted it around.

In fact,the only reason I can explain the continued need for fiction in a religion is to set up the test for gullibility. If you believe in whatever fantastic story the holy man preaches, then you probably will not question what they say. If you don't, then you are obviously a problem that need to be removed from the group.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I guess that is why religion is so dependant on faith--its not about knowing, it is about believing and having faith.

islamic religion is based on proof.

No, it's not.

Religion is a contrivance of man; it is false, failed, and the bane of humankind.

 

[Dajjal]

Read the Holy Bible and you shall know the truth, Amrchaos. Start in the New Testament and keep reading until you're saved.

i read quran already, and believe in all prophets that god sends to people. Muhammed , christ , moses (peace be upon them).

quran is the last successor of books god sends to people. i believe in them all as god ordered us.

If you have read the Quran you must know it says the sun orbits the earth, thereby proving it is lies from Muhammad, and not truths from God.

 

[Avatar4321]

Religion isn't important, Mohamed. A relationship with God is important. Religion keeps man separated from God because religion always puts its focus on a man and a man made doctrine where as the Doctrine of Christ is pure and undefiled religion which is birthed out of relationship to Jesus Christ and breaking all ties with man made institutions. The body of Christ, the church is a body of believers - there is no title - it isn't baptist, or episcopal, or lutheran or any other "title" man would put on the man made institutions he has built - ( in order to glory in himself and not Christ ) No, it is not what is built of man but rather it is based on the redemption Christ offered once for all mankind through His shed blood and death on the cross, his descending down to hell taking the keys, his resurrection and ascension into heaven. Jesus is God! He has risen! It is finished!

The end of dead religion, dead works, mans teachings, rituals, rules, sabbath keeping, and all the rest. That burden is so heavy that those who put it on you won't even keep it themselves! Take the LORDs yoke upon you and learn of him! His yoke is light! Not heavy!

Jesus died and rose again and has fulfilled the law. Those who have accepted HIS work at the cross by faith - not by works - have entered into his rest!

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. No man can come to God except through Jesus Christ. There is not many Gods but one. Jesus is God. He came in the flesh to earth as a man to redeem what Adam had lost in the garden. That is why Jesus is called the second Adam. If there were any other way for you to be able to enter heaven God would not have planned it this way - even from the garden! No, there is only one way. You must admit you are a sinner. That you need redemption and that you by faith believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins - which he did do, Mohammad, then receive by faith that he has pardoned you of your sins and that he has accepted you because His word says, Whosoever calls upon the name of the LORD shall be saved. You can go to sleep tonight knowing that you are a redeemed man who would go to heaven if you were to die. There is no greater peace for any man than to know that the matter of where he shall spend eternity is settled. I pray you do settle this matter tonight because the LORD loves you and desires you to have eternal life. How do I know this? He said so in His Word. He said he wishes that none would perish and that all would turn from their wicked ways. Apart from Christ we are all wicked, Mohamed. Sin is sin and it must be atoned for somehow. God has done it by sending His Only Begotten Son to die on a cross for our sins. As Jesus said, It is finished. Be free from the bondages of man made religion and receive Christ who has paid for your liberty in full.

Taking care of the widow and the fatherless and remaining unspotted from the world isn't important? Really?

 

[Avatar4321]

If we knew what happened after we die, we could determine which is the correct religion


Too bad we don't actual know what will happen after we die---So we don't know what is the correct religion.

I guess that is why religion is so dependant on faith--its not about knowing, it is about believing and having faith.

By the way, what is the antonym for secularism?

If you don't know, you could ask God.

 

[Avatar4321]

Read the Holy Bible and you shall know the truth, Amrchaos. Start in the New Testament and keep reading until you're saved.

You could read the Bible a thousand times and not know the truth. Because reading the Bible without the Holy Spirit doesn't help.

 

[Avatar4321]

Read the Holy Bible and you shall know the truth, Amrchaos. Start in the New Testament and keep reading until you're saved.

i read quran already, and believe in all prophets that god sends to people. Muhammed , christ , moses (peace be upon them).

quran is the last successor of books god sends to people. i believe in them all as god ordered us.

There have been more books. God isn't silent.

 

[Sunni Man]

In fact, I have read the bible several times and now trying to read and understand the Quran. (In fact, I may need pointers on how to get through that, the first book or Surah is so long that I was disinterested before putting it down. There is something strange about the style it is written in as well--at least the english version I have)

The Bible is written in a linear fashion based on the chronology of events. (beginning of time to end of time). Much like a novel or history book.

Whereas, the Quran is assembled in a random topical fashion. So it's best to pick a subject (marriage, divorce, war, etc.) and then read the corresponding verses, found in the index, relating to the subject you are interested in. (trying to read the Quran straight thru from beginning to end can be a challenge for non muslims)

One thing I tell non muslims is to read the short verses at the end of the Quran first.

They are generally the most spiritual. ..

 

[Dajjal]

(trying to read the Quran straight thru from beginning to end can be a challenge for non muslims)

One thing I tell non muslims is to read the short verses at the end of the Quran first.

They are generally the most spiritual. ..

I agree with you that reading the Quran backwards is the best thing for newbies. Struggling through sura 2 is hard going, as that is what I did. But I eventually found the last suras are the shortest so it makes sense to read them first, especially as they are mostly the first suras that were written. But when it comes to them being the most spiritual, I find that sura 111 gives a lot away about Muhammad's true nature. In just five verses he condemns his own uncle and aunt, because they denied him, and followed him around telling people he was a false prophet.

 

[Mohamed]

If you have read the Quran you must know it says the sun orbits the earth, thereby proving it is lies from Muhammad, and not truths from God.

as i remember, God talks about sunset and sun-rise as two pointers to god existence and his power. that doesn't mean he states the sun orbits the earth.

any way the view point of sun orbiting the earth in not wrong as you think, it is all relative.

if you consider earth to be static you will see a sun that revolves around it and planets moving in a complicated way, but this model is common and easy in our daily life.

if you consider the sun as static, you can simplify studying planets motion, but to study solar system motion ... may be should you take the center of galaxy as fixed.

quran is not a book of astronomy, it talks mostly about human so the human-centric model is usually employed.

god states clearly that sun, moon , night, morning all move.

 

[Sunni Man]

If you have read the Quran you must know it says the sun orbits the earth, thereby proving it is lies from Muhammad, and not truths from God.

as i remember, God talks about sunset and sun-rise as two pointers to god existence and his power. that doesn't mean he states the sun orbits the earth.

any way the view point of sun orbiting the earth in not wrong as you think, it is all relative.

if you consider earth to be static you will see a sun that revolves around it and planets moving in a complicated way, but this model is common and easy in our daily life.

if you consider the sun as static, you can simplify studying planets motion, but to study solar system motion ... may be should you take the center of galaxy as fixed.

quran is not a book of astronomy, it talks mostly about human so the human-centric model is usually employed.

god states clearly that sun, moon , night, morning all move.

Don't bother with this guy. He has been told many times what you just said to him. And still tells lies about Islam.

He hates Islam and is not worth your time to talk to him. ...

 

[Indeependent]

Read the Holy Bible and you shall know the truth, Amrchaos. Start in the New Testament and keep reading until you're saved.

I would suggest, IF I chose to suggest...
Start in the Jewish Scripture and then see all the errors purposely placed in the New Testament.

The fact is that the Quaran's concept of God is exactly the same as the Torah's.
You are NOT going to Hell.

Before you two start arguing about what I should read, let me explain that I am safely outside of Judeo-based theology and could read anyone of those books and walk away a non-believer.

In fact, I have read the bible several times and now trying to read and understand the Quran. (In fact, I may need pointers on how to get through that, the first book or Surah is so long that I was disinterested before putting it down. There is something strange about the style it is written in as well--at least the english version I have)

Simply put, the problem is that I do not believe in the myths of Judaism. From there, I don't see how I can believe in any religion based on those myths no matter how you twisted it around.

In fact,the only reason I can explain the continued need for fiction in a religion is to set up the test for gullibility. If you believe in whatever fantastic story the holy man preaches, then you probably will not question what they say. If you don't, then you are obviously a problem that need to be removed from the group.

Cool. Since I wasn't alive several thousands years ago I simply don't know the state of the universe at the time of creation or even until after the flood.
Imdo know that Gos specifically states that the global climate will change after the flood and I don't know about animals that we might refer to as missing links.

God created the universe which would indicate a perfect system.
However, God also endowed humans with the ability to not appreciate God and that's pretty much where the state of the system starts to warp.

 

[sealybobo]

why religion matters?

people in the west says that religion doesn't matter.

be a muslim, christian jewish ... it doesn't matter. they are the same

is this a correct idea?

let's first redefine the word (religion). in islam, the word "deen" is what translated to religion in english. hmmmm i don't know if they are exactly the same, so i will discuss what is meant by "deen" which is translated to religion.

deen is what you think about the universe, about yourself and others. and the definition of what to (do) in response to that understanding.

in this meaning, secularism is a deen/religion since it tells you what to (do).
Communism is also a deen/religion since it tells you what to think and what to do.

why religion is important?

simply because the fact that: all of your actions is based on your view of the world around you and of your self.

for example, you go to school and study because you (think) this will helps you get a good job and be good man.

you don't throw yourself from a height of 200m because you realize you will fall down and die (at least be harmed much).

(correct) religion is a must for two reasons:

1- to take care of what will happen after death
if god will throw those non-believers into the hell, it is important to think of this possibility to protect yourself otherwise if you get assured this will not happen you will be free to do whatever you like.
2- bad or wrong religion cause bad and wrong actions.

for example, nazis had the religion that they are more developped than others, so they have the right to control and maybe kill those others. in the same manner you kill a hen or a sheep because you are more developed than him.

the previous argument is very true, provided that the religion it was based on was true!!!

the right and false depends on the religion, you may do horrible crimes while thinking you do the good from the view-point of your religion.

so, it is much important to search for the true religion.

secularism doesn't solve the problem, because it doesn't answer what will happen after death, it is only suitable to these theortical religions that have no practical consequences.

but it fails with religions such as islam which has very practical consequences. if you are a muslim you should pray, judge with god's law and go to jihad. secularism is not compatible here. and you will collide with secularism, which is simply other religion with another practical consequences.

You are all over the place.

So tell me again why the Nazi and Communist religions were important and necessary? Why were the Greek gods important?

Religion only speculates what happens after death. Why does anything have to happen when you die? I was dead for zillions of years before I was born and didn't suffer one bit from it. In fact, the christian story doesn't make better people. An atheist tries to get it right the first time. A Christian thinks they can be horrible people and just because they believe a fairy tale they think that absolves them of all their sins? Atheists don't get a free pass like this.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Well, at least Muslim philosopher Ibn Sina (Avicenna) was able to wrap his head around the idea that moral relativism cannot exist. Many of our children today are being taught much differently.

Because TRUTH does exist, it is important to find it. Tis a shame that neither Avicenna nor the prophet Mohammed ever found the Truth.

At first Mohammed thought that he was possessed, stating, " I am afraid that I am possessed." He was on the right track in that when a spirit grabs you and squeezes you tightly and leaves you in fear, that is not a "good" spirit.

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:17

Sadly, he ignored his conscience and the rest is history.

 

[Dajjal]

If you have read the Quran you must know it says the sun orbits the earth, thereby proving it is lies from Muhammad, and not truths from God.

as i remember, God talks about sunset and sun-rise as two pointers to god existence and his power. that doesn't mean he states the sun orbits the earth.

any way the view point of sun orbiting the earth in not wrong as you think, it is all relative.

if you consider earth to be static you will see a sun that revolves around it and planets moving in a complicated way, but this model is common and easy in our daily life.

if you consider the sun as static, you can simplify studying planets motion, but to study solar system motion ... may be should you take the center of galaxy as fixed.

quran is not a book of astronomy, it talks mostly about human so the human-centric model is usually employed.

god states clearly that sun, moon , night, morning all move.

I know the sun moves in the galaxy, but Muhammad did not. In spite of what Sunni man says I have proved the quran says the sun orbits the earth with the following reputable hadith.


When the quran says, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 and 36.38 that the sun has an orbit, Imams falsely claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the flat earth and is reset every dawn , and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. The hadith is clearly saying the sun orbits the earth, and it is a fuller explanation of verse 36.38 in the quran.

 

[Sunni Man]

.....................................^^ You are like a broken record.....your nonsense has been debunked many times.......you need to get a life, or at least a hobby. ..

 

[Mohamed]

and I can prove it with the following hadith.

good, you know you can't prove it from quran ayas.

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

first, let me state some facts about sunnah (that contains hadith)
1) sunnah is what the messenger said
2) sunnah wasn't wrote down immediately in the life of messenger (peace be upon him).
3) the muslim hadith men collect hadithes from honest muslim people that heard it from the messenger.
hadiths have usually a series of (tellers) starting from three people where every one tells what he heard from the other. the hadith men spent large effort to verify the honesity of hadith tellers and ranked hadith according to this. they stated some hadithes as (correct) because they think with high confidence it was really said by the messenger (peace be upon him), others were classified as (put) i.e. some one lied and tell things the messenger didn't tell.
4) many times hadith reporters reported the hadithes in their own words, i.e. they told the meaning they understood, not necessarily in the same words as the messenger tells them.
for this reason, you may find many rwayas (report) of the same event but in different words.

regarding hadithes that reports some facts about people or universe, we should be aware that the people who told them were not always aware of the whole fact, so if they restate it in their own words the meaning would differ. we should really look at different (rowayas) and take into consideration the reporter's viewpoint.

for these reasons, i don't accept objections based on hadiths. if some one thinks islam is wrong he should base his arguments on quran. by logic, if islam is not true the quran must contain mistakes(and it doesn't) not sunnah only.

but anyway, i will answer you.
first) you mentioned one rowaya for the hadith and there are others with slightly different words this means that mostly the hadith wasn't told in exactly the same words as messenger (peace be upon him) told.
second) i didn't found the words in black in the hadith!!
third) the hadith talks about some events that will happen at the end of "donya" (life). although it seems some muslims didn't recognize that and thought it describes an everyday event.

 

[Dajjal]

and I can prove it with the following hadith.

good, you know you can't prove it from quran ayas.

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

first, let me state some facts about sunnah (that contains hadith)
1) sunnah is what the messenger said
2) sunnah wasn't wrote down immediately in the life of messenger (peace be upon him).
3) the muslim hadith men collect hadithes from honest muslim people that heard it from the messenger.
hadiths have usually a series of (tellers) starting from three people where every one tells what he heard from the other. the hadith men spent large effort to verify the honesity of hadith tellers and ranked hadith according to this. they stated some hadithes as (correct) because they think with high confidence it was really said by the messenger (peace be upon him), others were classified as (put) i.e. some one lied and tell things the messenger didn't tell.
4) many times hadith reporters reported the hadithes in their own words, i.e. they told the meaning they understood, not necessarily in the same words as the messenger tells them.
for this reason, you may find many rwayas (report) of the same event but in different words.

regarding hadithes that reports some facts about people or universe, we should be aware that the people who told them were not always aware of the whole fact, so if they restate it in their own words the meaning would differ. we should really look at different (rowayas) and take into consideration the reporter's viewpoint.

for these reasons, i don't accept objections based on hadiths. if some one thinks islam is wrong he should base his arguments on quran. by logic, if islam is not true the quran must contain mistakes(and it doesn't) not sunnah only.

but anyway, i will answer you.
first) you mentioned one rowaya for the hadith and there are others with slightly different words this means that mostly the hadith wasn't told in exactly the same words as messenger (peace be upon him) told.
second) i didn't found the words in black in the hadith!!
third) the hadith talks about some events that will happen at the end of "donya" (life). although it seems some muslims didn't recognize that and thought it describes an everyday event.

You are right, the Quran does not directly say the sun orbits the earth. It says the sun and the moon each float in an orbit. and I see you reject the hadith that makes plain the Quran is saying the sun orbits the earth.

Maybe you can explain verse 67.5 which says the stars are lamps that are missiles to throw at devils. You did say the Quran is not an astronomy book, and you are certainly right about that.

Quran sura 67.5 And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

 

[Mohamed]

Quran sura 67.5 And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

if you have plenty of these objections you can consult islamic forums or sites devoted to this sort of questions.

but i will answer you again.

god describe stars as lamps in the (dunya sky), again remember quran talks in a human-centric manner. although stars are really big spheres of very hot gas and in themselves more - what i say?- more stronger than the all humans and the earth planet and the solar system, the context of quran talks about its (effect and impression) on humans, they were acting like lamps and guidance of direction.

God states that land and sky is more bigger - or any other suitable word- beings than humans in another aya which is translated as:

{
Certainly the creation of the heavens and the earth is greater than the creation of humanity, but most people do not know.
}
sura 40:57

regarding your understanding to the rest of aya, it seems you have a mistake.

god doesn't say stars are lamps in the dunya sky and they fall....> no this is wrong
god says he adorn the dunya sky with stars and it (the dunya sky not the stars!) are where devils are being thrown.

okay, it may be you read some bad translation, or you have bad arabic language.

the translations of quran are not always trustable.

i think what is meant by (dunya sky) in quran is the earth's atmosphere, of course the thing that is thrown on jinnys is Meteorites and Meteors.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

religion is a must for two reasons:

1- to take care of what will happen after death
if god will throw those non-believers into the hell, it is important to think of this possibility to protect yourself otherwise if you get assured this will not happen you will be free to do whatever you like.
2- bad or wrong religion cause bad and wrong actions.

No.

Dead bodies - bury or cremate. Done.

Religion does not cause "good" actions. All you have to do is look at all the criminals who SAY they are religious.

I'm almost 70 and have never seen one good thing come from "religion".

And, in case you don't know it, "religion" (magic sky fairy, the planet Kolob, magic beads, beating a drum, magic smoke, magic water, magic underwear ....) has little or nothing to do with a belief in a god.