Why I Don't Believe

[sealybobo]

The Word of God is not religion. It is the Truth and if you are wise? You'll watch the video and listen to the message the LORD is sending you. It is 100% scripture based. The testimony is true. Watch the video.

God knows who wrote your bible(s). It certainly wasn't him.

I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking.

 

[PratchettFan]

No, that is not what I am saying. I don't consider both sides of the question to be equal.
All the evidence that I have been presented with has not been sufficient enough to convince me there is a god. Thus, I don't believe the assertion, "there is a god". Once sufficient evidence is presented, then I will believe.

This is what any atheist I have meet means when we have discussed the subject.

You believe or you don't believe. You are not a "believer" up until the point you make the assertion that there is no god. Because at that point, you are switching from what you believe to what you "know".

I wanted to take this last sentence separately because I'm not sure what you mean. You seem to be saying you "know" there is no god. If I'm misunderstanding you, can you clarify it for me?

Sure. I am just saying that when someone makes the assertion that god exists, they are claiming they "know". This is different from making the claim that they "believe" god exists.
I was just clarifying the difference between belief and knowledge.

I do not claim to "know" there is no god. I just don't "believe" there is at this point. Claiming you "know" one way or the other is claiming certainty. And there are very few things that we can claim for absolute certain.

Then perhaps we can pin down our terms, or at least I can pin down mine for the sake of clarification.

I am holding a pen in my hand. I am willing to say that I know if I let go it is going to fall to the floor. Technically, one could call this more of a prediction than knowledge and that I do not actually know until after the fact. But for the purposes of this discussion, I think saying I know is ok.

Take that to my truck. I am sure that when I go down there it will start when I turn the key. Is it possible it won't, yep. But I know how I take care of it and I am quite confident it will start. That is not knowledge but it is a valid conclusion based upon hard evidence.

Now we go to God. I have no idea what evidence would demonstrate the existence or non-existence of God. I don't even know what God is. So any position I might take on it is a blind guess based upon no evidence of any sort. This is what I mean when I talk about belief. It is a position made without any evidence to support it.

That is how I see the difference between knowledge, a valid conclusion and a belief. Nowhere in that is there any distinction between positive or negative. Whether I say I know something is or I know it is not, the same level of evidentiary support is required.

 

[sealybobo]

I do believe in God, though I doubt it's what you see as God and it is certainly not the Christian concept of God. If God exists, then it is natural. Nothing super about it.

We don't know what is outside of our universe. We don't even know what our universe is. We don't know just about everything. I see no reason to apply some label to stuff we don't know as if there was something mystical to it. It's just stuff we don't know. Someone who grew up lighting fire with two sticks might think a butane lighter is supernatural.

I'm ok with ignorance. I also understand it is the nature of humans to try to fill in that ignorance with belief. I certainly see that in myself. But I think it is important we be able to realize when that is happening. There is nothing at all wrong with belief, but it is a mistake when we confuse it with knowledge. So yes I believe in God... but know? Not even a little bit.

In other words you know the god as we all define "god" does not exist. No miracles, no viring births, no talking to mosus on mt arafat, all superstition, zero proof. Humans made it up.

And for whatever personal reason you don't want to let it go. I understand. Maybe it's better to be safe than sorry and not completely deny god, but when you finally realize there is no god it is actually rather spiritual. You realize you are in on a big secret that most people don't even know. They can let all that shit go.

If you notice a lot of very weak minded sad, lonely, depressed, rock bottom people are the ones who find jesus and get real hard core about it. I bet the churches love it when they find people like that. First of all, that's cool if it saves someone from being sad and rock bottom. For that I give the churches and religions mad props. If they make people better people, that's about one of the only reasons I don't completely hate religion. They do do a lot of good. Can't deny that. But that doesn't change the fact a lie is a lie. I don't care what the purpose is I don't like being lied to.

Would you have rather just kept believing in Santa? Because remember he knows if you are naughty or nice. Right???

The "god as we all define 'God'"? Who is this "we" you are referring to? Whoever they are, I'm not part of them. I don't believe in your version of God and I never have. Nor have I ever defined God in the way you define it. I don't have to let it go because I have never held it in the first place. Perhaps you should ask yourself if you don't believe in God, why do you have such a clear vision of what God is?

It seems to me you are the one who can't let it go. You are focused on Christianity and can't seem to get your mind around the fact that Christianity is not the only way of considering God. You claim to have rejected it and yet appear unable to see any other viewpoint as valid or even to be considered.

Do I know your concept of God does not exist? Of course I don't know. I just don't believe it does. I believe in something else entirely. Do I know it exists? Of course I don't know. But until someone can come up with valid evidence to the contrary, I'll go with what feels right to me. Not because I reject someone else's beliefs, but because I have my own. I don't have to disprove other people's beliefs to feel comfortable with mine.

Ok, without organized religion, how do you know and/or why do you think god exists?

 

[sealybobo]

I wanted to take this last sentence separately because I'm not sure what you mean. You seem to be saying you "know" there is no god. If I'm misunderstanding you, can you clarify it for me?

Sure. I am just saying that when someone makes the assertion that god exists, they are claiming they "know". This is different from making the claim that they "believe" god exists.
I was just clarifying the difference between belief and knowledge.

I do not claim to "know" there is no god. I just don't "believe" there is at this point. Claiming you "know" one way or the other is claiming certainty. And there are very few things that we can claim for absolute certain.

Then perhaps we can pin down our terms, or at least I can pin down mine for the sake of clarification.

I am holding a pen in my hand. I am willing to say that I know if I let go it is going to fall to the floor. Technically, one could call this more of a prediction than knowledge and that I do not actually know until after the fact. But for the purposes of this discussion, I think saying I know is ok.

Take that to my truck. I am sure that when I go down there it will start when I turn the key. Is it possible it won't, yep. But I know how I take care of it and I am quite confident it will start. That is not knowledge but it is a valid conclusion based upon hard evidence.

Now we go to God. I have no idea what evidence would demonstrate the existence or non-existence of God. I don't even know what God is. So any position I might take on it is a blind guess based upon no evidence of any sort. This is what I mean when I talk about belief. It is a position made without any evidence to support it.

That is how I see the difference between knowledge, a valid conclusion and a belief. Nowhere in that is there any distinction between positive or negative. Whether I say I know something is or I know it is not, the same level of evidentiary support is required.

You might enjoy this site

Why there is no god

 

[Rationalist1016]

I wanted to take this last sentence separately because I'm not sure what you mean. You seem to be saying you "know" there is no god. If I'm misunderstanding you, can you clarify it for me?

Sure. I am just saying that when someone makes the assertion that god exists, they are claiming they "know". This is different from making the claim that they "believe" god exists.
I was just clarifying the difference between belief and knowledge.

I do not claim to "know" there is no god. I just don't "believe" there is at this point. Claiming you "know" one way or the other is claiming certainty. And there are very few things that we can claim for absolute certain.

Then perhaps we can pin down our terms, or at least I can pin down mine for the sake of clarification.

I am holding a pen in my hand. I am willing to say that I know if I let go it is going to fall to the floor. Technically, one could call this more of a prediction than knowledge and that I do not actually know until after the fact. But for the purposes of this discussion, I think saying I know is ok.

Take that to my truck. I am sure that when I go down there it will start when I turn the key. Is it possible it won't, yep. But I know how I take care of it and I am quite confident it will start. That is not knowledge but it is a valid conclusion based upon hard evidence.

Now we go to God. I have no idea what evidence would demonstrate the existence or non-existence of God. I don't even know what God is. So any position I might take on it is a blind guess based upon no evidence of any sort. This is what I mean when I talk about belief. It is a position made without any evidence to support it.

That is how I see the difference between knowledge, a valid conclusion and a belief. Nowhere in that is there any distinction between positive or negative. Whether I say I know something is or I know it is not, the same level of evidentiary support is required.

Ok. I would agree to all that.
In YOUR god example, I would agree. But, in general, when you are engaged in a conversation with someone and the subject of god comes up, there is generally the assumption made that the god we are discussing is the biblical god. Unless otherwise specified. The label god carries some baggage with it. The word god has a definition. I would say god means different things to different people. So, maybe it would be better to start those conversations with, "what is your definition of god". Would you agree?

 

[RosieS]

I know there is no hell. I know there is no God such as the God of the Bible.

Why? Because everyone says God is not arbitrary. There are good reasons HE wants us to live HIS way.

What about those of us that Nature blessed with ovaries? I know I am as good as any man, in some ways much better. I also can and have produced a new generation from my own body alone.

Why, when I am made this way, must I fear Hell and be subjugated to male rules that benefit males alone?

Mormons do not even let women receive communion!! Egads. Each of you born from women yet women cannot receive communion. Are you nuts? Yeah.

The answer is I do not have to live like that. Hell does not exist and my lack of equality is something imposed - it is not actual reality.

I will not be punished for living Hellessly or in equality with men.

So some old grumpy guy in the sky ruling over us simply does not exist.

Evidence of earthly life says so. Those who threaten some imaginary place confirm it.

Regards from Rosie

 

[MaxGrit]

I know there is no hell. I know there is no God such as the God of the Bible.

Why? Because everyone says God is not arbitrary. There are good reasons HE wants us to live HIS way.

What about those of us that Nature blessed with ovaries? I know I am as good as any man, in some ways much better. I also can and have produced a new generation from my own body alone.

Why, when I am made this way, must I fear Hell and be subjugated to male rules that benefit males alone?

Mormons do not even let women receive communion!! Egads. Each of you born from women yet women cannot receive communion. Are you nuts? Yeah.

The answer is I do not have to live like that. Hell does not exist and my lack of equality is something imposed - it is not actual reality.

I will not be punished for living Hellessly or in equality with men.

So some old grumpy guy in the sky ruling over us simply does not exist.

Evidence of earthly life says so. Those who threaten some imaginary place confirm it.

Regards from Rosie

How do you know you know?

Regardless, your logic is that you will not go to Hell for loving sins, therefore Hell simply does not exist.

God is not arbitrary when He discriminates.

 

[PratchettFan]

Here is the well-known Dawkins scale of belief

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.

2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.

3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.

4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.

5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.

6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.

7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.



I am a number 6.

so, can we pinpoint the date when atheists began the effort to redefine atheism at 2006, when Dawkins wrote his book?.......prior to that, there were atheists and agnostics.....now atheists want to pretend they're only agnostics......

I consider myself an atheist because I live my life under the assumption that there is no God. I think anyone from (5) to (7) on this scale is entitled to call themselves an Atheist.

.

I don't think any of those even apply to me. I happen to believe in God, but not what Dawkins was talking about, and I live my life in the belief that God is irrelevant. But I do find it interesting that Atheists, at least western Atheists which are the only ones I have any experience with, have such a distinctively Christian approach to this.

 

[alang1216]

You have given your reason for not believing and I am giving you a reason to believe. Indeed all who have read this thread should listen to this because it is always good to hear "both sides" of the argument before making a decision.

(For those who chose not to watch it is a guided tour of heaven and hell.)

I did listen to it all and I have to say it was very entertaining not quite Dante but not bad. Very imaginative.

It does raise a few questions in my mind:
- is it meant to be taken literally? was it a vision/dream or was it a physical trip?
- why did it happen to this man and not others, he seemed no more devout or fallen than many others?
- a great story but why should I take it seriously?
- others have met angels, how should I judge truth from fiction?

 

[GISMYS]

That man is a fool who says to himself, “There is no God!” Anyone who talks like that is warped and evil and cannot really be a good person at all.Psalm 14:1===Only a fool would say to himself, “There is no God.” And why does he say it? Because of his wicked heart, his dark and evil deeds. His life is corroded with sin. PSALM 53:1 and you??? IF THE TRUTH HURTS DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT=CHANGE YOUR EVIL WAYS!!!

 

[pinqy]

That man is a fool who says to himself, “There is no God!” Anyone who talks like that is warped and evil and cannot really be a good person at all.Psalm 14:1===Only a fool would say to himself, “There is no God.” And why does he say it? Because of his wicked heart, his dark and evil deeds. His life is corroded with sin. PSALM 53:1 and you??? IF THE TRUTH HURTS DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT=CHANGE YOUR EVIL WAYS!!!

Which brings us back to my challenge/question: How does one just change beliefs based on fear of negative consequences and not actual evidence or support?

Would you really believe (not pretend, actually believe) that the Spice Girls are the greatest Rock group of all time if you were threatened with torture if you didn't?

 

[PratchettFan]

Sure. I am just saying that when someone makes the assertion that god exists, they are claiming they "know". This is different from making the claim that they "believe" god exists.
I was just clarifying the difference between belief and knowledge.

I do not claim to "know" there is no god. I just don't "believe" there is at this point. Claiming you "know" one way or the other is claiming certainty. And there are very few things that we can claim for absolute certain.

Then perhaps we can pin down our terms, or at least I can pin down mine for the sake of clarification.

I am holding a pen in my hand. I am willing to say that I know if I let go it is going to fall to the floor. Technically, one could call this more of a prediction than knowledge and that I do not actually know until after the fact. But for the purposes of this discussion, I think saying I know is ok.

Take that to my truck. I am sure that when I go down there it will start when I turn the key. Is it possible it won't, yep. But I know how I take care of it and I am quite confident it will start. That is not knowledge but it is a valid conclusion based upon hard evidence.

Now we go to God. I have no idea what evidence would demonstrate the existence or non-existence of God. I don't even know what God is. So any position I might take on it is a blind guess based upon no evidence of any sort. This is what I mean when I talk about belief. It is a position made without any evidence to support it.

That is how I see the difference between knowledge, a valid conclusion and a belief. Nowhere in that is there any distinction between positive or negative. Whether I say I know something is or I know it is not, the same level of evidentiary support is required.

Ok. I would agree to all that.
In YOUR god example, I would agree. But, in general, when you are engaged in a conversation with someone and the subject of god comes up, there is generally the assumption made that the god we are discussing is the biblical god. Unless otherwise specified. The label god carries some baggage with it. The word god has a definition. I would say god means different things to different people. So, maybe it would be better to start those conversations with, "what is your definition of god". Would you agree?

That would be an excellent starting point. I find it seldom happens. Everyone brings their own vision to the table and pretty much ignore the possibility there might be others. That too is a sign of belief. I might even go so far as to call it very human.

But let's take a definition and go from there. We might start with God being the creator of the universe, but that is pretty vague. So, unless you would rather use something else, how about we take Jesus - since I think it fair to say we are all familiar with him. I mean Jesus as savior, rather than Jesus as teacher. He died for our sins and now is in heaven to offer us salvation.

I think it safe to say neither of us buys that story. But what valid conclusions can be drawn regarding it? And remember what I mean by valid conclusion.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

We're not supposed to believe things with no evidence. But with God it's important to study it anyway. One of my fave quotes is,

"Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who claim to have found it."

Meaning, to me, it's sometimes better to try and understand than actually understand. If you're trying, you're objective. If you already have a firm position you're not longer open to new evidence.

Keep questioning, and disbelieving AND asking questions. That's how we learn.

 

[sealybobo]

so, can we pinpoint the date when atheists began the effort to redefine atheism at 2006, when Dawkins wrote his book?.......prior to that, there were atheists and agnostics.....now atheists want to pretend they're only agnostics......

I consider myself an atheist because I live my life under the assumption that there is no God. I think anyone from (5) to (7) on this scale is entitled to call themselves an Atheist.

.

I don't think any of those even apply to me. I happen to believe in God, but not what Dawkins was talking about, and I live my life in the belief that God is irrelevant. But I do find it interesting that Atheists, at least western Atheists which are the only ones I have any experience with, have such a distinctively Christian approach to this.

To me its cool as long as it's irrelevant.

So without organized religion telling you a god exists. In other words, without the made up story, knowing they aren't true, why do you still believe in a god? The greek gods to the egyptian gods to the jews to muslims to mormons to jehovas to born agains to catholics. We focus on christianity because most of you scoff at the other fairy tales but somehow believe your own. It is amazing.

 

[PratchettFan]

In other words you know the god as we all define "god" does not exist. No miracles, no viring births, no talking to mosus on mt arafat, all superstition, zero proof. Humans made it up.

And for whatever personal reason you don't want to let it go. I understand. Maybe it's better to be safe than sorry and not completely deny god, but when you finally realize there is no god it is actually rather spiritual. You realize you are in on a big secret that most people don't even know. They can let all that shit go.

If you notice a lot of very weak minded sad, lonely, depressed, rock bottom people are the ones who find jesus and get real hard core about it. I bet the churches love it when they find people like that. First of all, that's cool if it saves someone from being sad and rock bottom. For that I give the churches and religions mad props. If they make people better people, that's about one of the only reasons I don't completely hate religion. They do do a lot of good. Can't deny that. But that doesn't change the fact a lie is a lie. I don't care what the purpose is I don't like being lied to.

Would you have rather just kept believing in Santa? Because remember he knows if you are naughty or nice. Right???

The "god as we all define 'God'"? Who is this "we" you are referring to? Whoever they are, I'm not part of them. I don't believe in your version of God and I never have. Nor have I ever defined God in the way you define it. I don't have to let it go because I have never held it in the first place. Perhaps you should ask yourself if you don't believe in God, why do you have such a clear vision of what God is?

It seems to me you are the one who can't let it go. You are focused on Christianity and can't seem to get your mind around the fact that Christianity is not the only way of considering God. You claim to have rejected it and yet appear unable to see any other viewpoint as valid or even to be considered.

Do I know your concept of God does not exist? Of course I don't know. I just don't believe it does. I believe in something else entirely. Do I know it exists? Of course I don't know. But until someone can come up with valid evidence to the contrary, I'll go with what feels right to me. Not because I reject someone else's beliefs, but because I have my own. I don't have to disprove other people's beliefs to feel comfortable with mine.

Ok, without organized religion, how do you know and/or why do you think god exists?

Because it feels right to me. What more reason would I need?

 

[GISMYS]

That man is a fool who says to himself, “There is no God!” Anyone who talks like that is warped and evil and cannot really be a good person at all.Psalm 14:1===Only a fool would say to himself, “There is no God.” And why does he say it? Because of his wicked heart, his dark and evil deeds. His life is corroded with sin. PSALM 53:1 and you??? IF THE TRUTH HURTS DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT=CHANGE YOUR EVIL WAYS!!!

Which brings us back to my challenge/question: How does one just change beliefs based on fear of negative consequences and not actual evidence or support?

Would you really believe (not pretend, actually believe) that the Spice Girls are the greatest Rock group of all time if you were threatened with torture if you didn't?

NO THREATS=JUST FACTS =TRUTH. IT IS all your choice! If you chose to reject GOD'S love and forgivness then it is ""you"" that has chose hell!!!

 

[PratchettFan]

Sure. I am just saying that when someone makes the assertion that god exists, they are claiming they "know". This is different from making the claim that they "believe" god exists.
I was just clarifying the difference between belief and knowledge.

I do not claim to "know" there is no god. I just don't "believe" there is at this point. Claiming you "know" one way or the other is claiming certainty. And there are very few things that we can claim for absolute certain.

Then perhaps we can pin down our terms, or at least I can pin down mine for the sake of clarification.

I am holding a pen in my hand. I am willing to say that I know if I let go it is going to fall to the floor. Technically, one could call this more of a prediction than knowledge and that I do not actually know until after the fact. But for the purposes of this discussion, I think saying I know is ok.

Take that to my truck. I am sure that when I go down there it will start when I turn the key. Is it possible it won't, yep. But I know how I take care of it and I am quite confident it will start. That is not knowledge but it is a valid conclusion based upon hard evidence.

Now we go to God. I have no idea what evidence would demonstrate the existence or non-existence of God. I don't even know what God is. So any position I might take on it is a blind guess based upon no evidence of any sort. This is what I mean when I talk about belief. It is a position made without any evidence to support it.

That is how I see the difference between knowledge, a valid conclusion and a belief. Nowhere in that is there any distinction between positive or negative. Whether I say I know something is or I know it is not, the same level of evidentiary support is required.

You might enjoy this site

Why there is no god

I've seen it. It is entirely Christian. I keep saying this, I find it interesting that people who say they don't believe in God have a very clear picture of what God is.

 

[PratchettFan]

I know there is no hell. I know there is no God such as the God of the Bible.

Why? Because everyone says God is not arbitrary. There are good reasons HE wants us to live HIS way.

What about those of us that Nature blessed with ovaries? I know I am as good as any man, in some ways much better. I also can and have produced a new generation from my own body alone.

Why, when I am made this way, must I fear Hell and be subjugated to male rules that benefit males alone?

Mormons do not even let women receive communion!! Egads. Each of you born from women yet women cannot receive communion. Are you nuts? Yeah.

The answer is I do not have to live like that. Hell does not exist and my lack of equality is something imposed - it is not actual reality.

I will not be punished for living Hellessly or in equality with men.

So some old grumpy guy in the sky ruling over us simply does not exist.

Evidence of earthly life says so. Those who threaten some imaginary place confirm it.

Regards from Rosie

I disagree you know, but I still would agree with most of what you say. And I certainly hope you are right, especially for the sake of those who think you are wrong. For if you are wrong you will be in hell while they will spend eternity in the presence of a being who thought hell was a good idea. I have no doubt who deserves the most pity.

 

[PratchettFan]

That man is a fool who says to himself, “There is no God!” Anyone who talks like that is warped and evil and cannot really be a good person at all.Psalm 14:1===Only a fool would say to himself, “There is no God.” And why does he say it? Because of his wicked heart, his dark and evil deeds. His life is corroded with sin. PSALM 53:1 and you??? IF THE TRUTH HURTS DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT=CHANGE YOUR EVIL WAYS!!!

Oh good. You're back. People were getting worried about you. I hope all is well.

 

[GISMYS]

That man is a fool who says to himself, “There is no God!” Anyone who talks like that is warped and evil and cannot really be a good person at all.Psalm 14:1===Only a fool would say to himself, “There is no God.” And why does he say it? Because of his wicked heart, his dark and evil deeds. His life is corroded with sin. PSALM 53:1 and you??? IF THE TRUTH HURTS DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT=CHANGE YOUR EVIL WAYS!!!

Oh good. You're back. People were getting worried about you. I hope all is well.

WONDERFUL!!! just wonderful!!! PTL. There is no downside to living life as a son of ALMIGHTY GOD!!!