Why I Don't Believe

[Carla_Danger]

why would God allow people to grow up learning lies and then judge them?

here's where your logic falls apart.....he created them smart enough to figure out the truth, but didn't force it down their throats.....its not his fault you didn't meet up to his expectations.....

So, everyone that doesn't subscribe to your particular faith is stupid?




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[Carla_Danger]

As a young teen, I grew up in a neighborhood with both Christians and Jews and one day while walking I tried to reconcile why one God would have more than one religion. I considered the possibilities:
1 – All religions were true – this seemed unlikely since there were almost an infinite number across the planet and they appeared to fundamentally contradict one another in their morality, concept of God(s), history, etc.
2 – One religion was true while all others were false – this too seemed unlikely as why would God allow people to grow up learning lies and then judge them? Ideally it seemed God would want children to grow up without a religion and would, when they were adult enough to decide for themselves, choose which religion was true based on reason, morality, etc. It would be a conscious decision, not one made for them by their parents or community so if God were to later judge them at least they had a shot at salvation. Obviously this has never been the norm anywhere at any time in the past.
3 – No religion was true – this seemed the only logical answer then and didn’t seem so radical when I realized that if #2 above were true the majority of people in the world were WRONG. It seemed a modest leap from believing most people were wrong to all people were wrong (at that time I didn’t know anyone who admitted to me they did not believe in God).
Despite a lifetime of inquiry, I’ve never found a reason to change this decision.

I had similar questions. This must be a common starting point for atheists.




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[PratchettFan]

What you did was choose a belief. Your reason for choosing that belief is no better or worse than any other reason. It's just the one you felt most comfortable with. However, IMO, the only logical answer is none of us has a clue what the truth might be. It is all guess work so it is all belief with no evidence upon which to arrive at any logical answer other than the acknowledgement of ignorance.

So I would offer that you do believe. You just no longer believe what you were told to believe.

Well I do believe I'm right (don't we all), that is certainly true. I do consider myself an agnostic since there are big questions still to be answered and we'll probably be surprised and astonished when they are.

You picked "no religion is true". All that can be is belief. Mind you, I'm not criticizing the choice. It seems reasonable to me, just not logical since it has no evidence to support it. All of us are believers. It's what we do. I'm not sure what it is I believe about God, but I sure do believe in belief.

 

[alang1216]

What you did was choose a belief. Your reason for choosing that belief is no better or worse than any other reason. It's just the one you felt most comfortable with. However, IMO, the only logical answer is none of us has a clue what the truth might be. It is all guess work so it is all belief with no evidence upon which to arrive at any logical answer other than the acknowledgement of ignorance.

So I would offer that you do believe. You just no longer believe what you were told to believe.

Well I do believe I'm right (don't we all), that is certainly true. I do consider myself an agnostic since there are big questions still to be answered and we'll probably be surprised and astonished when they are.

You picked "no religion is true". All that can be is belief. Mind you, I'm not criticizing the choice. It seems reasonable to me, just not logical since it has no evidence to support it. All of us are believers. It's what we do. I'm not sure what it is I believe about God, but I sure do believe in belief.

A belief based not on what others have told me but a belief that comes from my own experiences.

In all my days I've never enountered anything that I judged to be supernatural. There have been plenty I couldn't explain, including UFOs, but nothing that could only be supernatural.

My logic tells me that if I've never encountered the supernatural and you claim it exists, the burden of proof is on you if you want to convince me.

 

[Avatar4321]

You want to find out for yourself if God is there, take the Book of Mormon challenge. Read it and ask the Lord. He will reveal Himself to you.

 

[Carla_Danger]

You want to find out for yourself if God is there, take the Book of Mormon challenge. Read it and ask the Lord. He will reveal Himself to you.

Why would I listen to Joseph Smith, who was possibly delusional or a con artist?




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[PostmodernProph]

why would God allow people to grow up learning lies and then judge them?

here's where your logic falls apart.....he created them smart enough to figure out the truth, but didn't force it down their throats.....its not his fault you didn't meet up to his expectations.....

Actually, God did force it down people's throats by commanding those who worship him to kill those that don't.

sorry, but I never got that command.....if I had, wouldn't you be dead?......

 

[PostmodernProph]

why would God allow people to grow up learning lies and then judge them?

here's where your logic falls apart.....he created them smart enough to figure out the truth, but didn't force it down their throats.....its not his fault you didn't meet up to his expectations.....

He must be used to disappointment since no one we know of in the Americas before Columbus ever figured it out and only a handful in the old world before Emporer Constantine's time.

I have no idea, not having spoken to anyone who died before I was born.......it may be that he met with each of them personally before he passed judgment and gave them the option.....he may still be doing that to anyone who dies today without knowing they had a choice.....sorry I fucked up that option for you by posting here.......

 

[Avatar4321]

You want to find out for yourself if God is there, take the Book of Mormon challenge. Read it and ask the Lord. He will reveal Himself to you.

Why would I listen to Joseph Smith, who was possibly delusional or a con artist?




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Because you learn things by listening to others, no matter what your predisposition towards them.

Because the Book of Mormon comes with a promise unlike any other volume of scripture:

Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.(Moroni 10:3-5

You are big on reason. What is more reasonable - 1) Experiment on the Word of God and do what the Lord says will give you knowledge of whether there is a God or not, or 2) Suppose you know better without doing any research or study whatsoever and without asking the Lord for yourself.

I would argue it's much more reasonable to actually investigate than presume you know it all without investigation.

The Book of Mormon provides a test for you to know that it's true. The Spirit will witness to you that it's true when you follow what the Lord says.

And the Spirit will likewise testify to the Bible and more importantly, He will testify that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

It was by the Holy Spirit that the Father revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ. It was the Holy Spirit that turned Peter the denier into Peter, the Rock (This was before Dwayne Johnson took on that persona).

Reason is only as good as the information we use to reason with. If we put bad information in, we get bad conclusions out. That's the flaw of reason. But reason can be used to lead us to the truth. If we want to know whether there is an all knowing, all powerful, God then isn't it completely reasonable that we need to have interactions with Him to know it? And how can we do that if we refuse to?

 

[PratchettFan]

Well I do believe I'm right (don't we all), that is certainly true. I do consider myself an agnostic since there are big questions still to be answered and we'll probably be surprised and astonished when they are.

You picked "no religion is true". All that can be is belief. Mind you, I'm not criticizing the choice. It seems reasonable to me, just not logical since it has no evidence to support it. All of us are believers. It's what we do. I'm not sure what it is I believe about God, but I sure do believe in belief.

A belief based not on what others have told me but a belief that comes from my own experiences.

In all my days I've never enountered anything that I judged to be supernatural. There have been plenty I couldn't explain, including UFOs, but nothing that could only be supernatural.

My logic tells me that if I've never encountered the supernatural and you claim it exists, the burden of proof is on you if you want to convince me.

I don't think I have ever claimed the supernatural exists. I consider the word itself to be an oxymoron. Nor do I have the slightest desire to convince you of anything. You believe what feels right to you and I have no problem with that at all. I believe what feels right to me. Neither of us has any claim to special knowledge. Those who say they do are simply wrong... or so I believe.

As I said, I don't consider your choice to be unreasonable. I fully concede you may well be right. But, IMO, for a conclusion to be logical it must be based upon evidence. Your failure to find such evidence may simply be a failure to look in the right place, or recognize it when you saw it. I am not saying that is the case, only that we don't know one way or the other. So the only logical position is one of neutrality.

 

[alang1216]

here's where your logic falls apart.....he created them smart enough to figure out the truth, but didn't force it down their throats.....its not his fault you didn't meet up to his expectations.....

He must be used to disappointment since no one we know of in the Americas before Columbus ever figured it out and only a handful in the old world before Emporer Constantine's time.

I have no idea, not having spoken to anyone who died before I was born.......it may be that he met with each of them personally before he passed judgment and gave them the option.....he may still be doing that to anyone who dies today without knowing they had a choice.....sorry I fucked up that option for you by posting here.......

If the ignorant had a chance for heaven before Jesus, that would mean he came to condemn men to Hell. Don't feel bad you're just doing God's work.

 

[alang1216]

My logic tells me that if I've never encountered the supernatural and you claim it exists, the burden of proof is on you if you want to convince me.

I don't think I have ever claimed the supernatural exists. I consider the word itself to be an oxymoron. Nor do I have the slightest desire to convince you of anything. You believe what feels right to you and I have no problem with that at all. I believe what feels right to me. Neither of us has any claim to special knowledge. Those who say they do are simply wrong... or so I believe.

As I said, I don't consider your choice to be unreasonable. I fully concede you may well be right. But, IMO, for a conclusion to be logical it must be based upon evidence. Your failure to find such evidence may simply be a failure to look in the right place, or recognize it when you saw it. I am not saying that is the case, only that we don't know one way or the other. So the only logical position is one of neutrality.

Didn't really mean you personally, it was more a general you. I thought you said you did believe in God and that is the definition of supernatural, creating the natural world necessitates God is outside the natural world.

 

[Carla_Danger]

You want to find out for yourself if God is there, take the Book of Mormon challenge. Read it and ask the Lord. He will reveal Himself to you.

Why would I listen to Joseph Smith, who was possibly delusional or a con artist?




.

Because you learn things by listening to others, no matter what your predisposition towards them.

Because the Book of Mormon comes with a promise unlike any other volume of scripture:

Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.(Moroni 10:3-5

You are big on reason. What is more reasonable - 1) Experiment on the Word of God and do what the Lord says will give you knowledge of whether there is a God or not, or 2) Suppose you know better without doing any research or study whatsoever and without asking the Lord for yourself.

I would argue it's much more reasonable to actually investigate than presume you know it all without investigation.

The Book of Mormon provides a test for you to know that it's true. The Spirit will witness to you that it's true when you follow what the Lord says.

And the Spirit will likewise testify to the Bible and more importantly, He will testify that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

It was by the Holy Spirit that the Father revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ. It was the Holy Spirit that turned Peter the denier into Peter, the Rock (This was before Dwayne Johnson took on that persona).

Reason is only as good as the information we use to reason with. If we put bad information in, we get bad conclusions out. That's the flaw of reason. But reason can be used to lead us to the truth. If we want to know whether there is an all knowing, all powerful, God then isn't it completely reasonable that we need to have interactions with Him to know it? And how can we do that if we refuse to?

Sound like they just made stuff up.



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[Carla_Danger]

You want to find out for yourself if God is there, take the Book of Mormon challenge. Read it and ask the Lord. He will reveal Himself to you.

I actually have the book of Mormon. These young boys started coming over to my house, and I made the mistake of being nice to them. I found that they were very manipulative.

I also think it's strange that the Mormon religion places all it's faith on what one man said....Joe Smith. Joe Smith, who put a magic rock in a hat and was able to translate reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics chiseled on gold plates into English, which he found in his backyard, in New York.

And what is this weird obsession your church has with masturbation? Joe made up a religion where he could have multiple wives, but you can't masturbate? I find your religion to be quite odd. Please don't preach at me anymore.

I now have a "No Religious Solicitation" sign on my door, and haven't been bothered since.

 

[PostmodernProph]

why would God allow people to grow up learning lies and then judge them?

here's where your logic falls apart.....he created them smart enough to figure out the truth, but didn't force it down their throats.....its not his fault you didn't meet up to his expectations.....

So, everyone that doesn't subscribe to your particular faith is stupid?




.

well obviously....but in particular, people who say things about my particular faith which are not true, are particularly stupid.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

He must be used to disappointment since no one we know of in the Americas before Columbus ever figured it out and only a handful in the old world before Emporer Constantine's time.

I have no idea, not having spoken to anyone who died before I was born.......it may be that he met with each of them personally before he passed judgment and gave them the option.....he may still be doing that to anyone who dies today without knowing they had a choice.....sorry I fucked up that option for you by posting here.......

If the ignorant had a chance for heaven before Jesus, that would mean he came to condemn men to Hell.

no....merely that he gave them the choice.....I haven't done anyone's job, you still have to make the choice.....

 

[Carla_Danger]

here's where your logic falls apart.....he created them smart enough to figure out the truth, but didn't force it down their throats.....its not his fault you didn't meet up to his expectations.....

So, everyone that doesn't subscribe to your particular faith is stupid?




.

well obviously....but in particular, people who say things about my particular faith which are not true, are particularly stupid.....

What is your particular faith, if you don't mind my asking?




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[PostmodernProph]

I thought it was obvious.....I'm a Christian.....

 

[Carla_Danger]

I thought it was obvious.....I'm a Christian.....

I'm sorry, what denomination? What type of church do you attend?




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[PratchettFan]

My logic tells me that if I've never encountered the supernatural and you claim it exists, the burden of proof is on you if you want to convince me.

I don't think I have ever claimed the supernatural exists. I consider the word itself to be an oxymoron. Nor do I have the slightest desire to convince you of anything. You believe what feels right to you and I have no problem with that at all. I believe what feels right to me. Neither of us has any claim to special knowledge. Those who say they do are simply wrong... or so I believe.

As I said, I don't consider your choice to be unreasonable. I fully concede you may well be right. But, IMO, for a conclusion to be logical it must be based upon evidence. Your failure to find such evidence may simply be a failure to look in the right place, or recognize it when you saw it. I am not saying that is the case, only that we don't know one way or the other. So the only logical position is one of neutrality.

Didn't really mean you personally, it was more a general you. I thought you said you did believe in God and that is the definition of supernatural, creating the natural world necessitates God is outside the natural world.

I do believe in God, though I doubt it's what you see as God and it is certainly not the Christian concept of God. If God exists, then it is natural. Nothing super about it.

We don't know what is outside of our universe. We don't even know what our universe is. We don't know just about everything. I see no reason to apply some label to stuff we don't know as if there was something mystical to it. It's just stuff we don't know. Someone who grew up lighting fire with two sticks might think a butane lighter is supernatural.

I'm ok with ignorance. I also understand it is the nature of humans to try to fill in that ignorance with belief. I certainly see that in myself. But I think it is important we be able to realize when that is happening. There is nothing at all wrong with belief, but it is a mistake when we confuse it with knowledge. So yes I believe in God... but know? Not even a little bit.