Why I Don't Believe

[PratchettFan]

Also, alot of people think atheism is the assertion that there is no god. And that is not the case. It is merely the position of not believing.
Not being convinced of "X" is not the same as "X" does not exist.

I have seen it defined that way. I have yet to meet anyone who actually conformed to the definition.

Really? What definition would they conform to?

The one you provided. Atheism is merely a position of not believing. I have yet to meet anyone who met that definition.

In the absence of evidence, any position is belief. So to lack belief one must be totally neutral. In essence, have no opinion at all.

 

[PratchettFan]

I listened to the beginning and it mentioned John Bunyon's vision of seeing an actual angel. My question, as always, is if many people have claimed to meet with angels (Mohammad, John Smith, etc.) why should I believe any of them?

You did not listen to the entire video. Watch it in it's entirety and at the very least you must watch it from the half way point to the very end so that you may see that those atheists in hell were in even greater torments for each and every soul they saw coming which they knew they had deceived upon the earth.

Some of the greatest punishments in hell were reserved for such men as worked for Lucifer by either teaching false doctrines, false religions, or as was the case of those who knew they were working for Lucifer to destroy the faith of others through causing them to doubt, to not believe, to destroy what faith as the person had.

Those workers of Lucifer were subject to tremendous torment by the demons and were confused that they were not given favor in hell as a form of gratitude from Lucifer - but they were told by the demons - gratitude is a virtue and Satan has no virtues. Hell has no virtue. Hell despises the virtues of God. Had they known this they would have realized their foolishness in ever having trusted Lucifer to make good on a single promise. Indeed the demons admitted they lied to these men and women in order to get them to serve them and destroy the faith of people while they were on the earth. Some of the fallen angels said had we been given the opportunity to repent we would have done it. You were given the opportunity to repent but refused and therefore your punishment should be greater. That is what they told these souls in hell in so many words but you must see if for yourself because truly there is no hope for you outside of Jesus Christ and the Cross.

You must repent of your sins and come to him and live for him now. You cannot wait any longer Alang1216. You need to repent and give your life to Christ by faith, pray with your entire heart in repentance and plead upon the mercy of God now. I will pray for you too. I pray you do it this night that you may be pardoned of your sins and accepted by Jesus Christ as a son of God. Truly no man knows when his last day upon the earth shall be. Would you dare to risk such an eternal damnation as John Bunyan has clearly warned you of? Could you not watch the entire video knowing that your eternal life is even now dangling over the fires of hell as if by a thread as thin as a spiders web? Be wise and watch the video, Alang1216. You have nothing to lose and your eternal souls' salvation to gain! Watch the video!

So how is this supposed to work? Am I supposed to think "Oh, well, if I don't start believing than a god I don't believe in will punish me so I better completely change what I believe to be true in fear of a punishment I have no reason to think will actually happen."
Can you do that? Believe in something you don't believe is true based on anything other than actual evidence? If someone told you that unless you believe the Spice Girls to be the greatest Rock group of all time they will torture you, could you do it?

Are you suggesting the Spice Girls aren't the greatest rock group of all time? You are going to hell.

 

[Carla_Danger]

I suppose you're right. I called myself agnostic for a long time. When you're an agnostic, people seem to be okay, because everyone has doubts at one time or another, but being an atheist is a whole other ball game. It's like having an incurable disease or something. LOL!





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Also, alot of people think atheism is the assertion that there is no god. And that is not the case. It is merely the position of not believing.
Not being convinced of "X" is not the same as "X" does not exist.

I have seen it defined that way. I have yet to meet anyone who actually conformed to the definition.

Here is the well-known Dawkins scale of belief

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.

2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.

3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.

4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.

5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.

6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.

7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.



I am a number 6.

 

[PostmodernProph]

I think once you can bring yourself to ask the question "is there a God" you're halfway there.

I suppose you're right. I called myself agnostic for a long time. When you're an agnostic, people seem to be okay, because everyone has doubts at one time or another, but being an atheist is a whole other ball game. It's like having an incurable disease or something. LOL!





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Also, alot of people think atheism is the assertion that there is no god. And that is not the case. It is merely the position of not believing.
Not being convinced of "X" is not the same as "X" does not exist.

that's the new definition of atheism that atheists are pressing for.....I think the motivation is loneliness.....until the last decade or so atheism meant precisely the claim that there is no god......

 

[pinqy]

Are you suggesting the Spice Girls aren't the greatest rock group of all time? You are going to hell.

They are neither great, nor rock.
Greatest Rock Group of all time is The Rolling Stones.
Greatest Group of all time is The Beatles.
Greates Pop Group of all time is ABBA.

So it is written, so shall it be done.

 

[Rationalist1016]

I have seen it defined that way. I have yet to meet anyone who actually conformed to the definition.

Really? What definition would they conform to?

The one you provided. Atheism is merely a position of not believing. I have yet to meet anyone who met that definition.

In the absence of evidence, any position is belief. So to lack belief one must be totally neutral. In essence, have no opinion at all.

I'm not sure I am understanding "In the absence of evidence, any position is belief."

My position is, if the assertion that god exists is made............I ask, what is the evidence for this assertion. If they have evidence that I don't fine convincing or no evidence at all. Just a bare assertion. My position is to NOT BELIEVE until evidence is provided to convince me.

That is what the definition of atheism means to me.

 

[PratchettFan]

Also, alot of people think atheism is the assertion that there is no god. And that is not the case. It is merely the position of not believing.
Not being convinced of "X" is not the same as "X" does not exist.

I have seen it defined that way. I have yet to meet anyone who actually conformed to the definition.

Here is the well-known Dawkins scale of belief

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.

2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.

3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.

4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.

5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.

6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.

7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.



I am a number 6.

Nothing wrong with that. But that does make you a believer.

 

[PratchettFan]

Really? What definition would they conform to?

The one you provided. Atheism is merely a position of not believing. I have yet to meet anyone who met that definition.

In the absence of evidence, any position is belief. So to lack belief one must be totally neutral. In essence, have no opinion at all.

I'm not sure I am understanding "In the absence of evidence, any position is belief."

My position is, if the assertion that god exists is made............I ask, what is the evidence for this assertion. If they have evidence that I don't fine convincing or no evidence at all. Just a bare assertion. My position is to NOT BELIEVE until evidence is provided to convince me.

That is what the definition of atheism means to me.

I understand that is what you say you do, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually did it. You are saying that you have absolutely no opinion on the existence of God. You consider either side of the question, pro or con, to be equal.

 

[PratchettFan]

Are you suggesting the Spice Girls aren't the greatest rock group of all time? You are going to hell.

They are neither great, nor rock.
Greatest Rock Group of all time is The Rolling Stones.
Greatest Group of all time is The Beatles.
Greates Pop Group of all time is ABBA.

So it is written, so shall it be done.

the Spice Girls cross all lines into the sublime. They are the greatest group of any type, you heathen. Their rendition of Freaker's Ball is the ultimate expression of human emotion. Their..... wait a sec. I'm thinking Dr. Hook. Never mind.

 

[Carla_Danger]

I have seen it defined that way. I have yet to meet anyone who actually conformed to the definition.

Here is the well-known Dawkins scale of belief

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.

2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.

3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.

4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.

5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.

6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.

7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.



I am a number 6.

Nothing wrong with that. But that does make you a believer.

A believer in what?




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[alang1216]

Here is the well-known Dawkins scale of belief

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.

2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.

3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.

4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.

5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.

6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.

7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.

I am a number 6.

If you refer to God as the creator of the universe I'm a 5, if you refer to God as the God of the Bible, I'm a 7

 

[PratchettFan]

Here is the well-known Dawkins scale of belief

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.

2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.

3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.

4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.

5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.

6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.

7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.



I am a number 6.

Nothing wrong with that. But that does make you a believer.

A believer in what?
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In there being no God. You say it is "very improbable". Unless you have evidence to arrive at that conclusion, you just believe it. That makes you a believer.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Also, alot of people think atheism is the assertion that there is no god. And that is not the case. It is merely the position of not believing.
Not being convinced of "X" is not the same as "X" does not exist.

I have seen it defined that way. I have yet to meet anyone who actually conformed to the definition.

Here is the well-known Dawkins scale of belief

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.

2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.

3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.

4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.

5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.

6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.

7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.



I am a number 6.

so, can we pinpoint the date when atheists began the effort to redefine atheism at 2006, when Dawkins wrote his book?.......prior to that, there were atheists and agnostics.....now atheists want to pretend they're only agnostics......

 

[Rationalist1016]

The one you provided. Atheism is merely a position of not believing. I have yet to meet anyone who met that definition.

In the absence of evidence, any position is belief. So to lack belief one must be totally neutral. In essence, have no opinion at all.

I'm not sure I am understanding "In the absence of evidence, any position is belief."

My position is, if the assertion that god exists is made............I ask, what is the evidence for this assertion. If they have evidence that I don't fine convincing or no evidence at all. Just a bare assertion. My position is to NOT BELIEVE until evidence is provided to convince me.

That is what the definition of atheism means to me.

I understand that is what you say you do, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually did it. You are saying that you have absolutely no opinion on the existence of God. You consider either side of the question, pro or con, to be equal.

No, that is not what I am saying. I don't consider both sides of the question to be equal.
All the evidence that I have been presented with has not been sufficient enough to convince me there is a god. Thus, I don't believe the assertion, "there is a god". Once sufficient evidence is presented, then I will believe.

This is what any atheist I have meet means when we have discussed the subject.

You believe or you don't believe. You are not a "believer" up until the point you make the assertion that there is no god. Because at that point, you are switching from what you believe to what you "know".

 

[PratchettFan]

I'm not sure I am understanding "In the absence of evidence, any position is belief."

My position is, if the assertion that god exists is made............I ask, what is the evidence for this assertion. If they have evidence that I don't fine convincing or no evidence at all. Just a bare assertion. My position is to NOT BELIEVE until evidence is provided to convince me.

That is what the definition of atheism means to me.

I understand that is what you say you do, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually did it. You are saying that you have absolutely no opinion on the existence of God. You consider either side of the question, pro or con, to be equal.

No, that is not what I am saying. I don't consider both sides of the question to be equal.
All the evidence that I have been presented with has not been sufficient enough to convince me there is a god. Thus, I don't believe the assertion, "there is a god". Once sufficient evidence is presented, then I will believe.

This is what any atheist I have meet means when we have discussed the subject.

You believe or you don't believe. You are not a "believer" up until the point you make the assertion that there is no god. Because at that point, you are switching from what you believe to what you "know".

Then you do not meet your own definition. Whether a belief is positive or negative is irrelevant. If I were to say I do not believe Obama is an American citizen, I don't get the benefit of the doubt just because it is a negative belief. Any position, and you have indicated you do hold an opinion, in the absence of evidence is a belief. So you do not simply "not believe".

To take that to the next step, the position that one does not hold beliefs on the basis of a definition is not simply belief, it is dogma.

 

[PostmodernProph]

does that mean a theist doesn't actually say there is a god, only that he believes there is, but doesn't have proof?......./just checking.....

 

[PratchettFan]

I'm not sure I am understanding "In the absence of evidence, any position is belief."

My position is, if the assertion that god exists is made............I ask, what is the evidence for this assertion. If they have evidence that I don't fine convincing or no evidence at all. Just a bare assertion. My position is to NOT BELIEVE until evidence is provided to convince me.

That is what the definition of atheism means to me.

I understand that is what you say you do, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually did it. You are saying that you have absolutely no opinion on the existence of God. You consider either side of the question, pro or con, to be equal.

No, that is not what I am saying. I don't consider both sides of the question to be equal.
All the evidence that I have been presented with has not been sufficient enough to convince me there is a god. Thus, I don't believe the assertion, "there is a god". Once sufficient evidence is presented, then I will believe.

This is what any atheist I have meet means when we have discussed the subject.

You believe or you don't believe. You are not a "believer" up until the point you make the assertion that there is no god. Because at that point, you are switching from what you believe to what you "know".

I wanted to take this last sentence separately because I'm not sure what you mean. You seem to be saying you "know" there is no god. If I'm misunderstanding you, can you clarify it for me?

 

[PratchettFan]

does that mean a theist doesn't actually say there is a god, only that he believes there is, but doesn't have proof?......./just checking.....

I'm not sure who you are addressing. If you say you know there is a god I will ask you for your evidence. If you can't produce it, then you are expressing a belief. Of course, you may well believe you know but I do not accept it as knowledge solely on that assertion.

 

[Rationalist1016]

I understand that is what you say you do, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually did it. You are saying that you have absolutely no opinion on the existence of God. You consider either side of the question, pro or con, to be equal.

No, that is not what I am saying. I don't consider both sides of the question to be equal.
All the evidence that I have been presented with has not been sufficient enough to convince me there is a god. Thus, I don't believe the assertion, "there is a god". Once sufficient evidence is presented, then I will believe.

This is what any atheist I have meet means when we have discussed the subject.

You believe or you don't believe. You are not a "believer" up until the point you make the assertion that there is no god. Because at that point, you are switching from what you believe to what you "know".

I wanted to take this last sentence separately because I'm not sure what you mean. You seem to be saying you "know" there is no god. If I'm misunderstanding you, can you clarify it for me?

Sure. I am just saying that when someone makes the assertion that god exists, they are claiming they "know". This is different from making the claim that they "believe" god exists.
I was just clarifying the difference between belief and knowledge.

I do not claim to "know" there is no god. I just don't "believe" there is at this point. Claiming you "know" one way or the other is claiming certainty. And there are very few things that we can claim for absolute certain.

 

[Carla_Danger]

I have seen it defined that way. I have yet to meet anyone who actually conformed to the definition.

Here is the well-known Dawkins scale of belief

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.

2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.

3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.

4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.

5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.

6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.

7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.



I am a number 6.

so, can we pinpoint the date when atheists began the effort to redefine atheism at 2006, when Dawkins wrote his book?.......prior to that, there were atheists and agnostics.....now atheists want to pretend they're only agnostics......

I consider myself an atheist because I live my life under the assumption that there is no God. I think anyone from (5) to (7) on this scale is entitled to call themselves an Atheist.




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