Zone1 Why does a good God allow evil?

[ding]

God is beyond us.

How does that make concepts like good or bad not apply?

 

[Paleman]

Yes. Easily. Morals are effectively standards. Standards exist for logical reasons. When we normalize our deviance to the standard the reason the standard existed in the first place is discovered. That's because not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. Some behaviors lead to better outcomes (harmony, happiness and order) and some lead to worse (stress, discord and chaos).

And lastly, almost everyone believes in right and wrong so strongly, that rather than giving up that concept when they violate it, they rationalize they didn't violate. So rather than saying, **** your invisible code of common decency, they argue that what they did wasn't wrong at all.

Ding---To me, all you have proven is that we mortals behave in a manner that is comfortable, based on what we think is good. My point is that there is no proof that the catholic god or any other deity operates under the same policy. I'm still waiting for proof that the gods are good and not bad.

 

[ding]

Ding---To me, all you have proven is that we mortals behave in a manner that is comfortable, based on what we think is good. My point is that there is no proof that the catholic god or any other deity operates under the same policy. I'm still waiting for proof that the gods are good and not bad.

The fact that everyone believes in right and wrong so strongly that rather than abandoning it when they violate it they rationalize they didn't. Being moral is hardwired into us. There's your proof.

And if you need additional proof look around objectively. The evil in this world is greatly overstated. Existence is good. Existence is great. How can you not see all the goodness around you? I say it's because you are biased and subjective. By any objective measure, existence is good.

And lastly, evil, like darkness and cold, are not extant. They only exist as the negation of the thing that exists; goodness, light and heat.

 

[BreezeWood]

- how would it be judged?

is that the spirit, (it) would not be free were it not triumphant - one or the other to even be judged.

judged by the heavens for admission ... they do know, they created life everything stems from their creation - you may not know - life is good.

 

[Zincwarrior]

How does that make concepts like good or bad not apply?

Good and bad are human connotations.

 

[ding]

Good and bad are human connotations.

Good and bad are based upon reality and logic. You cannot make good or bad be anything you want without being subjective.

Maybe what you are trying to say is that existence has no preference for an outcome but even that is incorrect.

 

[Zincwarrior]

Good and bad are based upon reality and logic. You cannot make good or bad be anything you want without being subjective.

Sure you can. What society views as good and bad depends on that society. There is no iron TRUTH agreed upon.

Maybe what you are trying to say is that existence has no preference for an outcome but even that is incorrect.

No. I am saying they are human concepts You cannot shackle what it utterly beyond us with human constructs.

An elephant does not concern itself with the thoughts of ants it passes by.

 

[ding]

Sure you can. What society views as good and bad depends on that society. There is no iron TRUTH agreed upon.

That is incorrect. Let's take slavery for example. Even when it was considered to be legal, good and moral, there were people who believed it wasn't.

Truth is not based upon popular opinion. Truth is based upon reality. And reality is logical.

 

[Zincwarrior]

That is incorrect. Let's take slavery for example. Even when it was considered to be legal, good and moral, there were people who believed it wasn't.

And there were many who believed it was, including the Baptist Church. Which controls?

Truth is not based upon popular opinion. Truth is based upon reality.

Truth is based on a point of view you were raised as a child.

And reality is logical.

Only mathmatics are logical, and if they get squeezed near the speed of light...

 

[ding]

No. I am saying they are human concepts You cannot shackle what it utterly beyond us with human constructs.

An elephant does not concern itself with the thoughts of ants it passes by.

By your logic everything is a human concept because reality can only be made manifest by mind. An elephant does not concern himself with an ant because an elephant has no concerns for an ant.

Reality, truth, logic, etc. are not human constructs. They exist unto themselves. Humans discover those "things." Humans do not construct or invent those "things."

 

[ding]

And there were many who believed it was, including the Baptist Church. Which controls?

Reality - which is truth - and logic determine right and wrong.

I know exactly how different societies rationalized slavery and each and every rationalization were subjective, self serving and illogical. The Greeks rationalized slavery on the grounds of moral superiority. The Romans knew slavery was immoral but rationalized slavery on the grounds of state superiority. The Founding Fathers knew slavery was against the law of nature but knew not how to end it and form the union. The Confederacy knew the Founding Fathers thought slavery was immoral but believed they were wrong. The Confederacy rationalized slavery the same way the Greeks did on the grounds of moral superiority.

But all anyone really needs to know that slavery is wrong is to be a slave themselves. So, no, man does not get to decide what is right and what is wrong based upon popular opinion which in the end is always self serving.

 

[Zincwarrior]

Reality - which is truth - and logic determine right and wrong.

I know exactly how different societies rationalized slavery and each and every rationalization were subjective, self serving and illogical. The Greeks rationalized slavery on the grounds of moral superiority. The Romans knew slavery was immoral but rationalized slavery on the grounds of state superiority. The Founding Fathers knew slavery was against the law of nature but knew not how to end it and form the union. The Confederacy knew the Founding Fathers though slavery was immoral but believed they were wrong. The Confederacy rationalized slavery the same way the Greeks did on the grounds of moral superiority.

But all anyone really needs to know that slavery is wrong is to be a slave themselves. So, no, man does not get to decide what is right and what is wrong based upon popular opinion which in the end is always self serving.

And to God that slavery at that time may have served a purpose, otherwise God wouldn't have permitted it, unless God is not omnipotent, or maybe not even aware of it.

 

[ding]

Truth is based on a point of view you were raised as a child.

No. Objective truth is reality. What you are describing is subjective truth. The definition of subjective is based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. The definition of objective is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

 

[Zincwarrior]

No. Objective truth is reality. What you are describing is subjective truth. The definition of subjective is based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. The definition of objective is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

We disagree, but thats ok. This has been a pleasant discussion.

 

[ding]

Only mathmatics are logical, and if they get squeezed near the speed of light...

Incorrect. There has never been an uncaused event. Everything that has unfolded has done so logically.

 

[Zincwarrior]

Incorrect. There has never been an uncaused event. Everything that has unfolded has done so logically.

I rescind my earlier statement. I would accept this as a maxxim. you just have to know all the variables and rules of the logic at the time.

 

[Donald H]

Witness the bibles in which it's made abundantly clear that he's not a good god.
Therefore, expect the worst from Christianity's contribution to world peace.

 

[ding]

And to God that slavery at that time may have served a purpose, otherwise God wouldn't have permitted it, unless God is not omnipotent, or maybe not even aware of it.

Free will says otherwise. God tolerates what we do. The definition of tolerate is to allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.

 

[ding]

I rescind my earlier statement. I would accept this as a maxxim. you just have to know all the variables and rules of the logic at the time.

That's usually not how it works. We usually discover truth from things we do wrong. You can take almost any written standard and there will be lots of failures that led to the standard being written. Only then will we understand it like you are suggesting.

 

[ding]

Witness the bibles in which it's made abundantly clear that he's not a good god.
Therefore, expect the worst from Christianity's contribution to world peace.

That sounds suspiciously like something a person intent on subordinating religion would say.