Zone1 why do some Protestants think that only they are Christians and the Catholics are not?

[hobelim]

And that is the kind of convoluted "logic" you display every time you try to insist the Word doesn't say what it says.

The same God who many claims can do anything created the world as we know it, as it has always been, so when it says in scripture something like Elijah was "taken up" the meaning is not directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used, the simple reading as you call it. So Elijah did not float up into the sky or leave the earth without dying, thats really quite insane. Being 'taken up' is just a euphemism for him being killed by a mob.

Thats the truth, the very truth, the same as when it says that Jesus was taken up into heaven (after he was killed).

You are not not displaying convoluted logic, I agree, you are displaying the absence of logic. I'll call it stupidity.

 

[hobelim]

Unless you can point to that in Scripture, we'll ignore it.

How many of you are there?

He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood. And there I saw the glory of the God of Israel, like the vision I had seen in the plain. “Son of man,” He said to me, “now lift up your eyes to the north.”

So I lifted up my eyes to the north, and in the entrance north of the Altar Gate I saw this idol of jealousy.

“Son of man,” He said to me, “do you see what they are doing—the great abominations that the house of Israel is committing—to drive Me far from My sanctuary? Yet you will see even greater abominations.”

Then He brought me to the entrance to the court, and I looked and saw a hole in the wall.

“Son of man,” He told me, “dig through the wall.” So I dug through the wall and discovered a doorway.

Then He said to me, “Go in and see the wicked abominations they are committing here.”

So I went in and looked, and engraved all around the wall was every kind of crawling creature and detestable beast, along with all the idols of the house of Israel. Before them stood seventy elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah son of Shaphan standing among them. Each had a censer in his hand, and a fragrant cloud of incense was rising.

“Son of man,” He said to me, “do you see what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? For they are saying, ‘The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.’ ” Again, He told me, “You will see them committing even greater abominations.”

Then He brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the LORD, and I saw women sitting there, weeping for Tammuz.

“Son of man,” He said to me, “do you see this? Yet you will see even greater abominations than these.”

So He brought me to the inner court of the house of the LORD, and there at the entrance to the temple of the LORD, between the portico and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east; and they were bowing to the east in worship of the sun.

“Son of man,” He said to me, “do you see this? Is it not enough for the house of Judah to commit the abominations they are practicing here, that they must also fill the land with violence and continually provoke Me to anger? Look, they are even putting the branch to their nose! Therefore I will respond with wrath. I will not look on them with pity, nor will I spare them. Although they shout loudly in My ears, I will not listen to them.”


Ezekiel 8:3-17

 

[ding]

The only realm where an eyewitness saw Jesus popping in and out of locked rooms is possible is in a dream.

The same with Ezekiel flying from Babylon to the temple in Jerusalem by an angel holding a lock of his hair only to dig through 14 feet of a solid stone foundation WITH HIS BARE HANDS to see the corruption going on inside.

Maybe they were wrong to not make it clear and maybe it was deliberate that the authors didn't say it was a dream because they assumed the intelligent reader would already know this. Such things don't happen in reality.

Am I telling you something that you didn't already know?

That’s why it was a really big deal when he performed all of those miracles and rose from the dead.

 

[hadit]

How many of you are there?

He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood. And there I saw the glory of the God of Israel, like the vision I had seen in the plain. “Son of man,” He said to me, “now lift up your eyes to the north.”

So I lifted up my eyes to the north, and in the entrance north of the Altar Gate I saw this idol of jealousy.

“Son of man,” He said to me, “do you see what they are doing—the great abominations that the house of Israel is committing—to drive Me far from My sanctuary? Yet you will see even greater abominations.”

Then He brought me to the entrance to the court, and I looked and saw a hole in the wall.

“Son of man,” He told me, “dig through the wall.” So I dug through the wall and discovered a doorway.

Then He said to me, “Go in and see the wicked abominations they are committing here.”

So I went in and looked, and engraved all around the wall was every kind of crawling creature and detestable beast, along with all the idols of the house of Israel. Before them stood seventy elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah son of Shaphan standing among them. Each had a censer in his hand, and a fragrant cloud of incense was rising.

“Son of man,” He said to me, “do you see what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? For they are saying, ‘The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.’ ” Again, He told me, “You will see them committing even greater abominations.”

Then He brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the LORD, and I saw women sitting there, weeping for Tammuz.

“Son of man,” He said to me, “do you see this? Yet you will see even greater abominations than these.”

So He brought me to the inner court of the house of the LORD, and there at the entrance to the temple of the LORD, between the portico and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east; and they were bowing to the east in worship of the sun.

“Son of man,” He said to me, “do you see this? Is it not enough for the house of Judah to commit the abominations they are practicing here, that they must also fill the land with violence and continually provoke Me to anger? Look, they are even putting the branch to their nose! Therefore I will respond with wrath. I will not look on them with pity, nor will I spare them. Although they shout loudly in My ears, I will not listen to them.”


Ezekiel 8:3-17

About time you supplied a reference. Here is where the wheels fall off your tricycle. When a prophet is given a vision, he says so. In the part you did not quote (which is immediately before where you cut), it says this:

8 On the fifth day of the sixth month of the sixth year of our exile, the leaders of the exiles from Judah were sitting in my house with me. Suddenly the power of the Sovereign Lord came on me.
2: I looked up and saw a vision of a fiery human form. From the waist down his body looked like fire, and from the waist up he was shining like polished bronze.

Ezekiel is without doubt speaking of a vision he had. Come on, I know you're a master at cutting out inconvenient parts of Scripture, but you can't do that with integrity.

 

[hobelim]

Ezekiel is without doubt speaking of a vision he had. Come on, I know you're a master at cutting out inconvenient parts of Scripture, but you can't do that with integrity.

Ok. Bad example.

So what about every single eyewitness account of seeing Jesus after the resurrection? Dream or reality? What about the transfiguration? Dream or reality? What about the men in white who came down from heaven rolled away and sat on the stone door of the tomb? Dream or reality? Jesus ascending into heaven until he was obscured by a cloud? Dream or reality? It is not clear. Its up to the reader to decide what happened IN REALITY.

Here lies the test. It's not just about if you believe. More importantly, it's about what you profess to believe.

Ding claims these things actually happened, literally. Thats what his and many Christian churches teach.

What do you profess to "believe" actually happened IN REALITY?

Can you answer that with integrity?

 

[hadit]

Ok. Bad example.

Here we see that you did not consider the context of the verses you lifted, trying to prove a point. This is one of your failings, so do better. Do not just focus on one verse and assume it applies universally to all throughout all time, look at the surrounding text. Consider when it was written, to whom it was written and why. Consider if it is an idiom in wide use at the time or a saying that everyone understood to mean something.

So what about every single eyewitness account of seeing Jesus after the resurrection? Dream or reality? What about the transfiguration? Dream or reality? What about the men in white who came down from heaven rolled away and sat on the stone door of the tomb? Dream or reality? Jesus ascending into heaven until he was obscured by a cloud? Dream or reality? It is not clear. Its up to the reader to decide what happened IN REALITY.

Here lies the test. It's not just about if you believe. More importantly, it's about what you profess to believe.

Ding claims these things actually happened, literally. Thats what his and many Christian churches teach.

What do you profess to "believe" actually happened IN REALITY?

Can you answer that with integrity?

Of course I can. When Scripture records a vision, it states it is a vision. When it says something happened and hundreds witnessed it at the same time, it happened in reality. You might as well say the Holocaust didn't happen because the photos were staged, the eyewitnesses were bought off or were hallucinating, the written accounts are metaphorical because they could not have happened right under the noses of the locals, the camp guards were just trying to help the prisoners who died of natural causes, etc.

You pervert Scripture to mean what it does not say because you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge the divinity of Yeshua and God's ability to work supernaturally. I do not rebuke you, the Lord rebukes you.

 

[ding]

Ok. Bad example.

So what about every single eyewitness account of seeing Jesus after the resurrection? Dream or reality? What about the transfiguration? Dream or reality? What about the men in white who came down from heaven rolled away and sat on the stone door of the tomb? Dream or reality? Jesus ascending into heaven until he was obscured by a cloud? Dream or reality? It is not clear. Its up to the reader to decide what happened IN REALITY.

Here lies the test. It's not just about if you believe. More importantly, it's about what you profess to believe.

Ding claims these things actually happened, literally. Thats what his and many Christian churches teach.

What do you profess to "believe" actually happened IN REALITY?

Can you answer that with integrity?

You have to look at the corroborating evidence. The first Christians worshipping Jesus as God is confirming evidence of the accounts of miracles and resurrection and who Jesus claimed he is. The Babylonian Talmud is confirming evidence of the accounts of Jesus being put to death for sorcery and blasphemy.

The lack of competing accounts of the miracles and resurrection of Christ means there is no evidence that challenges these accounts.

 

[hadit]

You have to look at the corroborating evidence. The first Christians worshipping Jesus as God is confirming evidence of the accounts of miracles and resurrection and who Jesus claimed he is. The Babylonian Talmud is confirming evidence of the accounts of Jesus being put to death for sorcery and blasphemy.

The lack of competing accounts of the miracles and resurrection of Christ means there is no evidence that challenges these accounts.

To say nothing of how professional Roman soldiers, assigned to guard the tomb on pain of death, were suddenly unable to explain how it got opened and the body removed.

This guy literally picks and chooses what parts of Scripture he'll honor as written, which parts the meaning of which he will pervert and twist, which parts he'll rewrite to suit his fancies, and which parts he'll ignore altogether.

 

[hobelim]

You pervert Scripture to mean what it does not say because you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge the divinity of Yeshua and God's ability to work supernaturally. I do not rebuke you, the Lord rebukes you.

What Lord is that? The Lord of darkness?

A nonexistent trinity that became an edible Jewish man, a perfect human sacrifice who paid for YOUR sins so you can sin with impunity and not die, the death, for brazenly defying the Law of God and desecrating the teachings of Jesus? You think a false god, the subject of a sardonic 4th century Roman joke, can rebuke me?

You could've just said that you have gone mad and believe in what's impossible to be true. But instead.....





"They pay no heed to the real hidden meaning of things but divert themselves instead with all kinds of iniquitous arcane lore. They do not know the hidden meaning of what is actually taking place, nor have they ever understood the lessons of the past. Consequently, they have no knowledge of what is coming upon them and have done NOTHING to save their souls from the deeper implications of present events."

 

[hadit]

What Lord is that? The Lord of darkness?

A nonexistent trinity that became an edible Jewish man, a perfect human sacrifice who paid for YOUR sins so you can sin with impunity and not die, the death, for brazenly defying the Law of God and desecrating the teachings of Jesus? You think a false god, the subject of a sardonic 4th century Roman joke, can rebuke me?

You could've just said that you have gone mad and believe in what's impossible to be true. But instead.....





"They pay no heed to the real hidden meaning of things but divert themselves instead with all kinds of iniquitous arcane lore. They do not know the hidden meaning of what is actually taking place, nor have they ever understood the lessons of the past. Consequently, they have no knowledge of what is coming upon them and have done NOTHING to save their souls from the deeper implications of present events."

Can God work supernaturally or not?

 

[hobelim]

Can God work supernaturally or not?

The entire Jewish religion provides the evidence that healing blindness, a miracle, was about a healing of perception, not sight. No suspension of disbelief required, no blind faith, there is nothing supernatural about it.

Except by suspending the death sentence for sin, giving sinners a brief opportunity to repent and join the living.


In the Bible blindness has a symbolic meaning referring to a lack of spiritual understanding or INSIGHT. It represents an inability to perceive or grasp Divine Truth, Gods will, or the spiritual realities surrounding all people.

So all you have to do is accept the fact that you have been misled, as if that was too hard to believe, and repent.

So just do it.

Trying to find fault with me. for not believing in shit that is impossible to be true will only worsen your plight.

 

[hadit]

The entire Jewish religion provides the evidence that healing blindness, a miracle, was about a healing of perception, not sight. No suspension of disbelief required, no blind faith, there is nothing supernatural about it.

Except by suspending the death sentence for sin, giving sinners a brief opportunity to repent and join the living.


In the Bible blindness has a symbolic meaning referring to a lack of spiritual understanding or INSIGHT. It represents an inability to perceive or grasp Divine Truth, Gods will, or the spiritual realities surrounding all people.

You're dodging to avoid answering with integrity. You wanted to know what I believed and I told you. Why are you afraid to do the same? It's a simple question:

Can and does God work supernaturally or not?

 

[hobelim]

You're dodging to avoid answering with integrity. You wanted to know what I believed and I told you. Why are you afraid to do the same? It's a simple question:

Can and does God work supernaturally or not?

I already told you. And you don't think that YOU are blind? Damn. I am very impressed by what "just believing" in pure bullshit has done for your brain.

And some people don't believe there are any negative consequences for eating the vile and loathsome "flesh" of unclean creatures that DO NOT RUMINATE.

Imagine that!

 

[hadit]

I already told you. And you don't think that YOU are blind? Damn.

Simple, link to the post. If you're referring to #491, that's a convoluted way of saying you don't believe God has and exercises that power. And you're okay with that blasphemy.

Does God exist outside of time and space?
Does God have a beginning and end?
Is the creator greater than the creation?

Be honest about what you believe.

 

[hobelim]

Simple, link to the post. If you're referring to #491, that's a convoluted way of saying you don't believe God has and exercises that power. And you're okay with that blasphemy.

Does God exist outside of time and space?
Does God have a beginning and end?
Is the creator greater than the creation?

Be honest about what you believe.

I am always honest. I am an honest man, the son of an honest man, from a long line of honest men. You are suffering from the liars curse which is not that no one believes you even if true, it's that you can't believe anyone else.

So I will tell you when you tell me, Is worshiping a trinity or a Jewish man idolatry? Remember, I own a dictionary.

 

[hadit]

I am always honest. I am an honest man, the son of an honest man, from a long line of honest men. You are suffering from the liars curse which is not that no one believes you, even if true, it's that you can't believe anyone else.

So I will tell you when you tell me, Is worshiping a trinity or a Jewish man idolatry? Remember, I own a dictionary.

You still have not answered any of those questions in a straightforward, honest manner. I answered you, it's your turn.

Can God work supernaturally or not?

 

[hobelim]

You still have not answered any of those questions in a straightforward, honest manner. I answered you, it's your turn.

Can God work supernaturally or not?

I told you. I will answer your question as soon as you tell me if worshipping a trinity or a Jewish man is idolatry.

You are the guy talking about ethics and truth and honesty. Remember? Lets see how honest and ethical you are.

Don't forget, before you say something stupid and condemned your soul for all eternity, I OWN A DICTIONARY.

 

[hadit]

I told you. I will answer your question as soon as you tell me if worshipping a trinity or a Jewish man is idolatry.

You are the guy talking about ethics and truth and honesty. Remember? Lets see how honest and ethical you are.

I already answered you about the events recorded in Scripture. You have not answered about God's abilities. Once you do that, we can move on to the other questions about theology.

Can God work supernaturally or not? Thus far, what you have written takes every miraculous or supernatural even recorded in the Bible and tries to pervert, twist, re-interpret or flat out ignore what it says, so I'm asking straight out what you believe.

 

[hobelim]

I already answered you about the events recorded in Scripture. You have not answered about God's abilities. Once you do that, we can move on to the other questions about theology.

Can God work supernaturally or not? Thus far, what you have written takes every miraculous or supernatural even recorded in the Bible and tries to pervert, twist, re-interpret or flat out ignore what it says, so I'm asking straight out what you believe.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you.

 

[hadit]

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you.

Have you been struck silent? You're spouting inanity to avoid answering a very simple question.