Zone1 Why do members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Baptize for the Dead?

[ding]

Well, the Catholic Church also excommunicates as does many other Christian Churches. It does happen in the LDS Church but not as much as in the past. However, if someone opposes Jesus Christ and His doctrine to the point of hurting others testimonies, they will be either disfellowshipped or excommunicated. If they sin a great sin, the same is a possibility. Although, it doesn't happen as much today as in the past.

On matters of the divinity or Christ or the Trinity or the real presence of Christ, sure. But on other matters, not so much. That's not the case for LDS. LDS discourages challenging pretty much everything. Which is why you guys are more like a hive mind.

 

[ding]

Do you know your early church fathers also believed man may become gods?

No because they didn't. You misunderstood.

Theosis is the transformative process of being conformed to the image of Christ, allowing believers to partake in the divine life. The Church Fathers taught that humans become gods by grace (participation), not by essence or nature. Humans always remain creatures, and God remains the Creator. Unlike some modern interpretations (e.g., Mormonism), the early fathers did not teach that humans become omnipotent or equal to God in the same way He is God.

 

[onefour1]

“In the world of the spirits of the dead”? I have to tell you the truth. I always thought the Mormons were just somewhat different than each of the other Christians. You know …. a little bit here … a little bit there. I found out that the Mormons and Jehova’s Witness are on very unfriendly terms. I read about Jehova’s Witness just to see what the fuss is all about. NOW I understand that Jehova Witness are far more logical and sensible but the Mormons really are a Satanic Cult. I can almost not even believe what you are saying about baptizing dead people and claiming you got their permission from their spirit. What makes you think you can communicate with the dead better than God can? You people are bat-shit cArazy!

I think you either need some reading comprehension classes or you are just being that way to be contrary.

 

[Cougarbear]

Here it is again--you assuming what I know so you can talk about that instead of what I say. In mythology, Sirius is the hunting dog of Orion. If you and the Egyptians imagine God residing there, that's fine. Catholics note that God's dwelling place is the human heart..

So, to you, Neither the Father or Son have a body of flesh and bones? Yet, Jesus showed his resurrected body to many. So was the Son deceiving people? You don't know that the Egyptology about this didn't become known until after Joseph Smith was dead. And, LDS also believe that when given the gift of the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost member of the Godhead, being spirit, is able to dwell with us. So, we also believe God is with us in our hearts. Kolob... Interesting...

 

[Cougarbear]

“In the world of the spirits of the dead”? I have to tell you the truth. I always thought the Mormons were just somewhat different than each of the other Christians. You know …. a little bit here … a little bit there. I found out that the Mormons and Jehova’s Witness are on very unfriendly terms. I read about Jehova’s Witness just to see what the fuss is all about. NOW I understand that Jehova Witness are far more logical and sensible but the Mormons really are a Satanic Cult. I can almost not even believe what you are saying about baptizing dead people and claiming you got their permission from their spirit. What makes you think you can communicate with the dead better than God can? You people are bat-shit cArazy!

Why are you making up lies to justify your confusion. We don't get any permission from the spirits of those who are dead. Where have you seen this? Not in our doctrine. Someone again has lied to you. JW's probably. We believe Jesus Christ between his death and resurrection went to the dead spirits and preached to them as stated in 1st Peter chapters 3 and 4. We also believe what he actually did was establish a missionary core to continue preaching and teaching those spirits of people who continue to die. Especially those who did not have a real opportunity to hear the fullness of the Gospel and have the opportunity to do their necessary work like Baptism.

Now, where do you get the idea that we are a satanic cult? Is it because we do work for people we don't get permission from? That's Meriweather's position. However, does this mean Jesus is also a leader of satanism because he atoned for everyone's sin without everyone's permission? Well? Our logic and reason is far superior than yours and JW's and Catholics.

 

[Cougarbear]

No because they didn't. You misunderstood.

Theosis is the transformative process of being conformed to the image of Christ, allowing believers to partake in the divine life. The Church Fathers taught that humans become gods by grace (participation), not by essence or nature. Humans always remain creatures, and God remains the Creator. Unlike some modern interpretations (e.g., Mormonism), the early fathers did not teach that humans become omnipotent or equal to God in the same way He is God.

Cement of Alexandria (AD 150 - 215), "If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God...He is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes god, since God wills it. So Heracilitus was right when he said, "Men are gods, and gods are men."........And, those who have been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy ; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits then a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of "gods" since they are destined to be enthroned with the other "gods" who are ranked next below the Savior."

Basil the Great (AD 330 - 379), "Also celebrated this prospect - not just "being made like to God," but "highest of all, the being made God."

Irenaeus (AD 115 - 202), Saint Ironies, who may justly be called the first Biblical theologian among the ancient Christians, was a disciple of the great Polycorp, who was a direct disciple of John the Revelator. Irenaeus is not a heretic or unorthodox in traditional Christian circles, yet he shares a belief in theosis: "While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord." Like the LDS, Irenaeus did not believe that this belief in any way displaced God, Christ, or the Holy Ghost: "There is none other called Bod by the scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption...Since, therefore, this is sure and steadfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, toghether whith His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption."

You can get more understanding of our true position and your early fathers in this short video:

 

[Cougarbear]

On matters of the divinity or Christ or the Trinity or the real presence of Christ, sure. But on other matters, not so much. That's not the case for LDS. LDS discourages challenging pretty much everything. Which is why you guys are more like a hive mind.

Where do you get this idea from? You obviously don't know much about the LDS Church. We have free moral agency to choose for ourselves. In our Book of Mormon, we are challenged to read, study out in our own minds, meditate on everything, pray to receive wisdom and knowledge of truth before accepting anything as true. Brigham Young University is a top tear school in science and many areas that Notre Dame is. By the way, ND is coming to Provo next football season to play BYU. Should be a great game!

In fact, a couple of years before Covid shut down many churches, our Prophet was inspired to move towards a more home centered Church where we learn about doctrine together as families. We have manuals to guide but leave open to discuss, contemplate and for ourselves receive truth and testimonies of doctrine. When churches were shut down, we were able to continue in our homes including blessing the Sacraments too.

Just look at me. Many things I write in here are not necessarily doctrine or found in our scriptures. But, they are my opinions based on logic and reasoning that I conclude. We are by far more open to having opinions than traditional Churches including the Catholic Church.

 

[Meriweather]

So, to you, Neither the Father or Son have a body of flesh and bones? Yet, Jesus showed his resurrected body to many. So was the Son deceiving people? You don't know that the Egyptology about this didn't become known until after Joseph Smith was dead. And, LDS also believe that when given the gift of the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost member of the Godhead, being spirit, is able to dwell with us. So, we also believe God is with us in our hearts. Kolob... Interesting...

As long as a faith doesn't meddle with me personally (proxy baptism or proxy anything without my permission) I have nothing to say about anything they believe or disbelieve. I am sure each has their reason(s) for their own dogma and doctrine. My lack of belief about any other doctrine shouldn't mean a thing to anyone when I am not of his/her faith to begin with.

 

[Cougarbear]

As long as a faith doesn't meddle with me personally (proxy baptism or proxy anything without my permission) I have nothing to say about anything they believe or disbelieve. I am sure each has their reason(s) for their own dogma and doctrine. My lack of belief about any other doctrine shouldn't mean a thing to anyone when I am not of his/her faith to begin with.

So, did you give Jesus approval to atone for your sins before he atoned for your sins? Your argument falls way short unless you want to say the same thing to Jesus Christ. Make him get approvals from everyone who has ever lived or will live today and in the future. Of course, he would have to take back his atonement leaving you to wallow in your sins... Get real! Your future great-grandchildren don't need your approval to baptize by proxy for you.

 

[GLASNOST]

“In the world of the spirits of the dead”? I have to tell you the truth. I always thought the Mormons were just somewhat different than each of the other Christians. You know …. a little bit here … a little bit there. I found out that the Mormons and Jehova’s Witness are on very unfriendly terms. I read about Jehova’s Witness just to see what the fuss is all about. NOW I understand that Jehova Witness are far more logical and sensible but the Mormons really are a Satanic Cult. I can almost not even believe what you are saying about baptizing dead people and claiming you got their permission from their spirit. What makes you think you can communicate with the dead better than God can? You people are bat-shit cArazy!

I think you either need some reading comprehension classes or you are just being that way to be contrary.

THAT's what you think, huh? You're the guy who thinks you can have a discussion with ghosts and negate the worth of a person's life after he or she has been dead for a hundred years or more.

 

[Meriweather]

So, did you give Jesus approval to atone for your sins before he atoned for your sins? Your argument falls way short unless you want to say the same thing to Jesus Christ. Make him get approvals from everyone who has ever lived or will live today and in the future. Of course, he would have to take back his atonement leaving you to wallow in your sins... Get real! Your future great-grandchildren don't need your approval to baptize by proxy for you.

Could you be more silly? If I had never come into existence would the sun still shine, would the world still have been redeemed? What I despise/feel sorriest about the LDS faith is the lack of confidence/faith in Christ. They have so little confidence they place themselves equal to, even above him.

 

[Cougarbear]

Could you be more silly? If I had never come into existence would the sun still shine, would the world still have been redeemed? What I despise/feel sorriest about the LDS faith is the lack of confidence/faith in Christ. They have so little confidence they place themselves equal to, even above him.

This might help. It's too bad that you know very little about your own Church history. But, this will help.

 

[GLASNOST]

We don't get any permission from the spirits of those who are dead. Where have you seen this? Not in our doctrine. Someone again has lied to you.

Well, it's obviously a lie and I guess he really is onefor1 and not one for all of you. You should tell him he is discrediting your faith. Tell him now.

JW's probably.

No, he says he's a Mormon.

Now, where do you get the idea that we are a satanic cult?

Because you baptise dead people. That in itself is Satanic. And you (yes, I'm talking about you) lie, evade straight-forward issues, and refuse to admit you are wrong.

..... does this mean Jesus is also a leader of satanism

You do not know anything about what Jesus said or did. But are you asking me my personal opinion? I think he was a prophet just like hundreds or thousands of others. I don't think he said he was anything more than that. It was impatient men who made up the cock-and-bull story about him being the Messiah. They must have been Mormons who baptised Jesus after he was dead. Yes, I'm sure of it now Those men didn't even invent the Messiah prophesy. Those men stole it from fundamental Judaism and blasphemed it. So ...... if you want an answer to your question I am willing to tell you that the answer is probably .....
... so stop blaming Jesus for your hokus-pokus superstitions.

Our logic and reason is far superior than yours

You Mormons have no reasoning at all.

... and JW's .

Not from what I can see. JWs have more reasoning and logic that is far more realistic than yours.

 

[Cougarbear]

Well, it's obviously a lie and I guess he really is onefor1 and not one for all of you. You should tell him he is discrediting your faith. Tell him now.

No, he says he's a Mormon.

Because you baptise dead people. That in itself is Satanic. And you (yes, I'm talking about you) lie, evade straight-forward issues, and refuse to admit you are wrong.

You do not know anything about what Jesus said or did. But are you asking me my personal opinion? I think he was a prophet just like hundreds or thousands of others. I don't think he said he was anything more than that. It was impatient men who made up the cock-and-bull story about him being the Messiah. They must have been Mormons who baptised Jesus after he was dead. Yes, I'm sure of it now Those men didn't even invent the Messiah prophesy. Those men stole it from fundamental Judaism and blasphemed it. So ...... if you want an answer to your question I am willing to tell you that the answer is probably .....
... so stop blaming Jesus for your hokus-pokus superstitions.

You Mormons have no reasoning at all.

Not from what I can see. JWs have more reasoning and logic that is far more realistic than yours.

No, he never said that either. You lied. Must be a member of a Satanic cult. Anti-Christ for sure.

 

[onefour1]

THAT's what you think, huh? You're the guy who thinks you can have a discussion with ghosts and negate the worth of a person's life after he or she has been dead for a hundred years or more.
View attachment 1213219

Where did I say that I have discussions with ghosts? We simply offer the dead the free will opportunity in the world of spirits to accept baptisms performed by proxy in their behalf. If they don't accept it, it isn't forced upon them and is of no affect. We have written this multiple times and this is why you need a class on reading comprehension. Just as Jesus' atonement is up to each of our free will choice to accept or reject it, so are baptisms for the dead. If Jesus was able to preach to the spirits who are dead, then they certainly have the ability to make a choice to accept his gospel when dead just as they have the choice to accept a baptism performed on their behalf should they choose to do so.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Here we read of Christ's teaching of the gospel to the dead and their being able to accept or reject it. So obviously the spirits of the dead are alive and fully capable of choosing to accept or reject Jesus' gospel.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 138

A vision given to President Joseph F. Smith in Salt Lake City, Utah, on October 3, 1918. In his opening address at the 89th Semiannual General Conference of the Church, on October 4, 1918, President Smith declared that he had received several divine communications during the previous months. One of these, concerning the Savior’s visit to the spirits of the dead while His body was in the tomb, President Smith had received the previous day. It was written immediately following the close of the conference. On October 31, 1918, it was submitted to the counselors in the First Presidency, the Council of the Twelve, and the Patriarch, and it was unanimously accepted by them.

1–10, President Joseph F. Smith ponders upon the writings of Peter and our Lord’s visit to the spirit world; 11–24, President Smith sees the righteous dead assembled in paradise and Christ’s ministry among them; 25–37, He sees how the preaching of the gospel was organized among the spirits; 38–52, He sees Adam, Eve, and many of the holy prophets in the spirit world who considered their spirit state before their resurrection as a bondage; 53–60, The righteous dead of this day continue their labors in the world of spirits.

1 On the third of October, in the year nineteen hundred and eighteen, I sat in my room pondering over the scriptures;

2 And reflecting upon the great atoning sacrifice that was made by the Son of God, for the redemption of the world;

3 And the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the Redeemer into the world;

4 That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved.

5 While I was thus engaged, my mind reverted to the writings of the apostle Peter, to the primitive saints scattered abroad throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, and other parts of Asia, where the gospel had been preached after the crucifixion of the Lord.

6 I opened the Bible and read the third and fourth chapters of the first epistle of Peter, and as I read I was greatly impressed, more than I had ever been before, with the following passages:

7 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

8 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

9 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18–20.)

10 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)

11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;

19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.

24 Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.

25 I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance;

26 And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands.

27 But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all,

39 And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God.

40 Abel, the first martyr, was there, and his brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam.

41 Noah, who gave warning of the flood; Shem, the great high priest; Abraham, the father of the faithful; Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, the great law-giver of Israel;

42 And Isaiah, who declared by prophecy that the Redeemer was anointed to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that were bound, were also there.

43 Moreover, Ezekiel, who was shown in vision the great valley of dry bones, which were to be clothed upon with flesh, to come forth again in the resurrection of the dead, living souls;

44 Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;

45 Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration;

46 And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there.

47 The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers,

48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.

49 All these and many more, even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites and testified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,

50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life,

52 And continue thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which were held in reserve for them that love him.

53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,

54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.

55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.

 

[GLASNOST]

he says he's a Mormon.

No, he never said that

Here you go .....

How would you know if it is still offensive to the dead?

He says he's a Mormon. Of course, with the Mormon Cult of Lies you never know which one is lying ..... you or him?

 

[Cougarbear]

Where did I say that I have discussions with ghosts? We simply offer the dead the free will opportunity in the world of spirits to accept baptisms performed by proxy in their behalf. If they don't accept it, it isn't forced upon them and is of no affect. We have written this multiple times and this is why you need a class on reading comprehension. Just as Jesus' atonement is up to each of our free will choice to accept or reject it, so are baptisms for the dead. If Jesus was able to preach to the spirits who are dead, then they certainly have the ability to make a choice to accept his gospel when dead just as they have the choice to accept a baptism performed on their behalf should they choose to do so.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Here we read of Christ's teaching of the gospel to the dead and their being able to accept or reject it. So obviously the spirits of the dead are alive and fully capable of choosing to accept or reject Jesus' gospel.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 138

A vision given to President Joseph F. Smith in Salt Lake City, Utah, on October 3, 1918. In his opening address at the 89th Semiannual General Conference of the Church, on October 4, 1918, President Smith declared that he had received several divine communications during the previous months. One of these, concerning the Savior’s visit to the spirits of the dead while His body was in the tomb, President Smith had received the previous day. It was written immediately following the close of the conference. On October 31, 1918, it was submitted to the counselors in the First Presidency, the Council of the Twelve, and the Patriarch, and it was unanimously accepted by them.

1–10, President Joseph F. Smith ponders upon the writings of Peter and our Lord’s visit to the spirit world; 11–24, President Smith sees the righteous dead assembled in paradise and Christ’s ministry among them; 25–37, He sees how the preaching of the gospel was organized among the spirits; 38–52, He sees Adam, Eve, and many of the holy prophets in the spirit world who considered their spirit state before their resurrection as a bondage; 53–60, The righteous dead of this day continue their labors in the world of spirits.

1 On the third of October, in the year nineteen hundred and eighteen, I sat in my room pondering over the scriptures;

2 And reflecting upon the great atoning sacrifice that was made by the Son of God, for the redemption of the world;

3 And the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the Redeemer into the world;

4 That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved.

5 While I was thus engaged, my mind reverted to the writings of the apostle Peter, to the primitive saints scattered abroad throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, and other parts of Asia, where the gospel had been preached after the crucifixion of the Lord.

6 I opened the Bible and read the third and fourth chapters of the first epistle of Peter, and as I read I was greatly impressed, more than I had ever been before, with the following passages:

7 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

8 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

9 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18–20.)

10 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)

11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;

19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.

24 Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.

25 I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance;

26 And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands.

27 But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all,

39 And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God.

40 Abel, the first martyr, was there, and his brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam.

41 Noah, who gave warning of the flood; Shem, the great high priest; Abraham, the father of the faithful; Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, the great law-giver of Israel;

42 And Isaiah, who declared by prophecy that the Redeemer was anointed to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that were bound, were also there.

43 Moreover, Ezekiel, who was shown in vision the great valley of dry bones, which were to be clothed upon with flesh, to come forth again in the resurrection of the dead, living souls;

44 Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;

45 Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration;

46 And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there.

47 The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers,

48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.

49 All these and many more, even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites and testified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,

50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life,

52 And continue thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which were held in reserve for them that love him.

53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,

54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.

55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.

Now this should be clear to everyone. Why would anyone not understand that the spirits of the dead are in bondage because they need to be baptized and get a chance to go to paradise to await their resurrection once baptized. Why would anyone try to stop this work from going forth? Uggg… make a list of those who want to be baptized after they are dead. How stupid can they be!

 

[GLASNOST]

You're the guy who thinks you can have a discussion with ghosts ...

Where did I say that I have discussions with ghosts?

Ever since the beginnig of this thread.

We simply offer the dead the free will ...

You see, you just did it again.

 

[GLASNOST]

The tally is in!

 

[onefour1]

Ever since the beginnig of this thread.

You see, you just did it again.

What you choose to fail to understand is that we (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) offer a vicarious baptism for dead people. We don't ask or have a discussion with them as living mortals on this earth or ask their permission. Those whom Jesus preached to in the world of spirits who were faithful in this life, who have died in this mortal life but are alive as resurrected beings or as spirits go among those who have not received the gospel and baptism and preach to them that are dead so they can accept the gospel which includes baptism for the dead. All we do while alive on earth as mortals is perform the baptisms. Those who are the righteous dead go among the unsaved dead and preach the gospel and if vicarious baptism has been performed on their behalf they can accept it and thus fulfill the requirement made by Jesus Christ to be born of the water. They can also simply reject it too. It has now been fully explained to you and if you choose to disregard what has been plainly stated that is your choice.