Zone1 Why do members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Baptize for the Dead?

[onefour1]

The tally is in!

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So is it you that speaks to the dead and takes a tally?

 

[GLASNOST]

What you choose to fail to understand is that we (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) offer a vicarious baptism for dead people. We don't ask or have a discussion with them.

So, you offer the dead something and they don’t respond? Or they do respond? Coo-coo!

 

[GLASNOST]

Now this should be clear to everyone.

Ooh, I can't wait to hear it!

Why would anyone not understand that the spirits of the dead are in bondage because they need to be baptized and get a chance to go to paradise.

GOOD POINT!

 

[Robert W]

So, you offer the dead something and they don’t respond? Or they do respond? Coo-coo!

 

[Robert W]

Ooh, I can't wait to hear it!

GOOD POINT!

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How many souls get the offer to baptize for them since they never got baptized?

 

[Cougarbear]

She needs to meet the missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[GLASNOST]

How many souls get the offer to baptize for them since they never got baptized?

It is a proven FACT that not a single person ever died and came back to life. “Near death” is just another term for a “dream”. It is also a proven FACT that baptising does not improve anyone’s chances of going to heaven . Baptism is an earthy club membership ritual that gets you cheaper tickets to club events and circus shows. THAT’s A FACT.

 

[Meriweather]

Baptism is an earthy club membership ritual that gets you cheaper tickets to club events and circus shows. THAT’s A FACT.

That is not The Way, Catholics understand Baptism. (Play on of words there ) Before the early Church became known as 'Catholic' (open to all), it was known as The Way (In Greek, Hodos) meaning a way of living/walking through this life. This root was also in Judaism, who have a word for Walk with God. In Aramaic, A manner of life. Baptism signifies a manner of living, of Life in the Kingdom during this life. Early Quakers eschewed baptism act because they saw too many using a Baptism as a single point in life rather than something that is meant to be lived every day in one's life.

However, the way you describe baptism as a kind of admission ticket is why I so heartily object to the LDS proxy baptism. They do see it as an admission ticket to whatever afterlife they believe in, not The Way of living this life in kingdom living as an essential element of eternal life.

LDS refuse to understand that, by proxy, they are having another, in my name, say, I totally reject my own Baptism and turn to yours. I find that sick and disgusting on so many levels. I love and embrace my baptism and strongly object to anyone even suggesting I might not. It means that much to me--walking, in this life, The Way of Christ. Which baptism (by their own proxy "baptism") they intend to crucify one year after my death. So...maybe I should think of it in terms of The Way Jesus went to his own crucifixion.

 

[GLASNOST]

... the way you describe baptism as a kind of admission ticket is why I so heartily object to the LDS proxy baptism.

That's the purpose of me "boiling it down" in those terms. I am happy to see that you understand it.

They do see it as an admission ticket to whatever afterlife they believe in,

Yes.

LDS refuse to understand that, by proxy, they are having another, in my name, say, I totally reject my own Baptism and turn to yours.

I agree with you.

I find that sick and disgusting on so many levels.

More levels than I can even list.

I love and embrace my baptism and strongly object to anyone even suggesting I might not.

You have every right to it. Everyone has a right to their "embrace" ..... even Mormons. But that they suggest that yours, or mine, or anyone else’s disqualifies us from heaven ..... well .... that is complete nonsense! Their notion of being the only qualified emissaries of God is disgusting.

 

[Meriweather]

You have every right to it. Everyone has a right to their "embrace" ..... even Mormons. But that they suggest that yours, or mine, or anyone else’s disqualifies us from heaven ..... well .... that is complete nonsense! Their notion of being the only qualified emissaries of God is disgusting.

While I do find LDS anointing themselves as proxies to speak in the name of others so arrogant as to be disgusting, I do not put their notion of being the only qualified emissaries of God in the disgusting category, but deeply into the insecure category. Anyone who has to make a place for themselves by declaring others apostates is insecure in their own claim. LDS has a lot to overcome. They have declared a con man a prophet--not a false prophet despite his claims--but a true prophet. He also took a number of brides, some underage. Despite all of this, I do maintain God's Spirit can bring good out worse circumstances than these. I see the beginning of the Mormon faith as a con man trying to use God to bring people to him, but then God used Joseph Smith to bring people to Him.

LDS, at one time, barred dark skinned people from their ordinances, but in the late 1970s disavowed this practice. I am hopeful at some time LDS will also disavow the practice of proxy "baptisms" of the dead--especially those who had already lived another faith, and/or those baptized into another faith.

 

[GLASNOST]

... Anyone who has to make a place for themselves by declaring others apostates

As Catholocism?

LDS ... barred dark skinned people ... but ... disavowed this practice. I am hopeful ... will also disavow the ... proxy "baptisms" of the dead ...

They can disavow all they like but any Church that makes such idiotic claims in the name of God will never be forgiven. By disavowing they are saying God changed his mind, which is popycock. They think God is stupid.

 

[ding]

As Catholocism?

Catholics doesn't declare Judaism to be apostasy. It is literally the other way around. The Jews consider Catholics to be apostates. Unlike the LDS, Catholicism didn't need to declare Judaism invalid.

They can disavow all they like but any Church that makes such idiotic claims in the name of God will never be forgiven. By disavowing they are saying God changed his mind, which is popycock. They think God is stupid.

Truth is discovered. Discovering truth has no bearing on God. So, no, it wouldn't be like saying God changed his mind.

 

[ding]

Cement of Alexandria (AD 150 - 215), "If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God...He is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes god, since God wills it. So Heracilitus was right when he said, "Men are gods, and gods are men."........And, those who have been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy ; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits then a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of "gods" since they are destined to be enthroned with the other "gods" who are ranked next below the Savior."

Basil the Great (AD 330 - 379), "Also celebrated this prospect - not just "being made like to God," but "highest of all, the being made God."

Irenaeus (AD 115 - 202), Saint Ironies, who may justly be called the first Biblical theologian among the ancient Christians, was a disciple of the great Polycorp, who was a direct disciple of John the Revelator. Irenaeus is not a heretic or unorthodox in traditional Christian circles, yet he shares a belief in theosis: "While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord." Like the LDS, Irenaeus did not believe that this belief in any way displaced God, Christ, or the Holy Ghost: "There is none other called Bod by the scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption...Since, therefore, this is sure and steadfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, toghether whith His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption."

You can get more understanding of our true position and your early fathers in this short video:

I can't explain it anymore clearly than I already have.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you. You aren't going to become a god.

 

[ding]

Where do you get this idea from? You obviously don't know much about the LDS Church. We have free moral agency to choose for ourselves. In our Book of Mormon, we are challenged to read, study out in our own minds, meditate on everything, pray to receive wisdom and knowledge of truth before accepting anything as true. Brigham Young University is a top tear school in science and many areas that Notre Dame is. By the way, ND is coming to Provo next football season to play BYU. Should be a great game!

In fact, a couple of years before Covid shut down many churches, our Prophet was inspired to move towards a more home centered Church where we learn about doctrine together as families. We have manuals to guide but leave open to discuss, contemplate and for ourselves receive truth and testimonies of doctrine. When churches were shut down, we were able to continue in our homes including blessing the Sacraments too.

Just look at me. Many things I write in here are not necessarily doctrine or found in our scriptures. But, they are my opinions based on logic and reasoning that I conclude. We are by far more open to having opinions than traditional Churches including the Catholic Church.

I get it from your behaviors. You can't disagree with anything your church teaches. For instance... matter is not eternal. Google it. But you will never accept it because Brigham Young said matter was eternal and your church adopted it as a scientific fact.

 

[onefour1]

So, you offer the dead something and they don’t respond? Or they do respond? Coo-coo!

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

So do you also consider Jesus Christ to be coo-coo because he, upon his death visited the dead and communicated with the dead by preaching to them?

 

[onefour1]

It is a proven FACT that not a single person ever died and came back to life. “Near death” is just another term for a “dream”.

So you obviously do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his teaching that all mankind will eventually resurrect to never die again.

It is also a proven FACT that baptising does not improve anyone’s chances of going to heaven . Baptism is an earthy club membership ritual that gets you cheaper tickets to club events and circus shows. THAT’s A FACT.

Again, you obviously do not believe the teachings of Jesus Christ regarding baptism:

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I think I will hang my hat on the Lord Jesus Christ not the self proclaimed all knowing Glasnost.

 

[GLASNOST]

So, you offer the dead something and they don’t respond? Or they do respond? Coo-coo!

So do you also consider Jesus Christ to be coo-coo because he, upon his death visited the dead and communicated with the dead by preaching to them?

I do not consider Jesus coo-coo because he did not preach to the dead after his own death. That is pure superstition.

So you obviously do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Of course not. That is just BS hokus-pokus filiokus.

I think I will hang my hat on the Lord Jesus Christ not the self proclaimed all knowing Glasnost.

Not I nor Jesus Christ made such proclamations. You hang your hat on a book of fiction written by primitive and superstitious men who believed in hokus-pokus. * Stop dragging Jesus Christ into it. He didn't do anything wrong*. And if God really did demand that people must be members of the Mormon Cult of Lies in order to enter the gates of heaven he doesn’t need your your skinny nimble fingers in the pie of baptism. God can accomplish that all by Himself. But you think God is stupid and is unable to convert the dead to anything He wants. You belong to a Cult - the Mormon Cult of Lies.

 

[Cougarbear]

I can't explain it anymore clearly than I already have.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you. You aren't going to become a god.

Then maybe you should contact the Pope and let him know that we will progress to be join heirs as gods as the Bible states in Genesis and all the early fathers of your Church. Funny how you damn the very beginnings of your Church by calling them liars.

 

[Cougarbear]

I get it from your behaviors. You can't disagree with anything your church teaches. For instance... matter is not eternal. Google it. But you will never accept it because Brigham Young said matter was eternal and your church adopted it as a scientific fact.

We are discussing doctrine. Behaviors of members is all over the place because we all have opinions. Brigham Young had opinions and he spoke them. Doesn't make them doctrine.
Well, you can't disagree with anything your church teaches too. For instance, abortion is not murder. Google it.
Now, let's talk doctrine about matter. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. Only change it's nature like into energy. Matter is eternal and has always existed. Also, if it were not so, then resurrection would not be eternal either. And, we know that goes against Catholic teachings too. What BY was speaking about is that God didn't create the universe out of nothing. He organized it from matter yet unorganized. Just like if you create a painting, the materials were already prepared and existed before you create the painting. As far as scientific fact, Einstein proved matter cannot be created nor destroyed. So, it is fact. BY knew this before Einstein. Joseph Smith was taught this from God and Angels.

 

[Meriweather]

As Catholocism?

In the Catholic faith, apostasy is someone, who is a baptized Catholic, repudiating the Catholic faith totally and voluntarily. Those of other faiths are not in apostasy. It is not a label for for other faiths or even other denominations. For example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, defines her relationship with Jews:

839

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

And with Muslims:

841

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."