Why do libertarians aid, and abet Obama?

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Only leftists support a libertarian party.

More "leftists" support the Republican Party.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Only leftists support a libertarian party.

Is that right?

Libertarians support the ABSOLUTE right to bear arms, free enterprise , capitalism, we oppose the "income tax" the federal Reserve Board and the welfare state in its totality.

So we are kind of "weird leftists" , right?

.

You support abortion, a LIBERAL concept, the murder of babies.

Libertarians aren't necessarily pro-choice.

 

[HelenaHandbag]

I'd like to know what, exactly, did the MSM did/does to attack Liberterianism.

What EFFED-UP the Liberterians and the TPers was their co-option by theFOXNEWS, Glenn Beck, et al. That network was BLATANTLY campaigning for them. There was no mistaking that group for being made up of mostly disgruntled and/or embarrassed Republicans that was and always have-been anti-Obama.

And for the handful that were true to their original cause, their voice was either too small or non-existent, so that continued.

I'd argue the MSM had nothing to do with it.

I primarily follow print media, here's a link to the story I mentioned earlier in the thread:

Libertarians Are the New Communists - Bloomberg

There are plenty more, you'll see quite a bit of talk about the lack of social contract and the alleged barbaric nature of libertarian thought, this is a relatively new angle of attack so if you go back more than a few months you won't find much.

I don't consider Beck to be MSM and haven't bothered to listen to a word that man has to say after his gold pimping episode so I'll have to take your word for what he's saying.

I don't watch FOX a lot but when I have they didn't strike me as particularly friendly to Libertarian thought. They kept Ron Paul from appearing on the air with other candidates more than once and the last two Presidential races they backed McCain and Romney, two guys that are definitely not libertarian thinkers or TP material. They weren't really on the Rand Paul bandwagon until after he was elected and if he decides to run in '16 or '20 we'll see exactly how much support they end up giving him. I've heard them give lip service to the TP but when it matters they seem to me to back the statist/neo-con candidates and positions. When I've watched them lately they're talking about Chris Christie, not a TP'er or a libertarian.

I do agree that when the TP decided to throw in with the GOP that was a huge mistake and I have already said that in this thread.

Libertarian = communist?

I don't think that even Stretch Armstrong could make that reach.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The deficit was cut through both cuts and taxes. That is what you call a bipartisan deal.

The deficit was not cut, it was increased massively by Obama, and Obama personally fought against every single spending cut, even the ones he proposed as part of that bipartisan deal. The asshole even fought against the tax hikes that were proposed by his party.

What us with you in making things up? Here is the proof. Facts are facts.

Obama Proposes Cutting $4 Trillion From Deficit in 12 Years - Bloomberg

Obama Proposes Cutting $4 Trillion From Deficit in 12 Years - Bloomberg

Yes, the deficit got really high. Most of the spending went to unemployment benefits and other recovery programs. It also went up because of a lack of revenue. This was unfortunate, but necessary spending.

Thanks for the laugh.

Tell me something, where were those cuts when he submitted his budget?

 

[kaz]

Is that right?

Libertarians support the ABSOLUTE right to bear arms, free enterprise , capitalism, we oppose the "income tax" the federal Reserve Board and the welfare state in its totality.

So we are kind of "weird leftists" , right?

.

You support abortion, a LIBERAL concept, the murder of babies.

Libertarians aren't necessarily pro-choice.

Yes, my brother and I agree on most issues, but abortion is a big exception. He's pro-life, I'm pro-choice.

While I recognize what you say is true, I still don't grasp how a libertarian can think it's the role of government to force a woman to carry a baby to term. And most libertarians don't think that. But it's definitely true that some do.

 

[Pheonixops]

We do? Says who?

One other thing, you don't tell us how to vote. This is exactly why I am a libertarian. I don't like being told by the establishment who I'm required to vote for.

Note the word "should" not "must".

Narco-libertarians are actually closer to liberals than they are conservatives. Listen to them on foreign policy, if you can stomache it.
Notice how the Dems managed to win by fronting a libertarian candidate in the VA race and siphoning off votes from the Republican.

I am definitely a LIberal and I align myself more with the views of Libertarian Party than any other party. I choose any candidate I want regardless of party, I definitely don't like the foreign policy of both the Democrat and Republican parties. That's for damn sure. I also don't like the Civil Liberties records of BOTH the Republican and Democrat parties. I see no real big difference between this Administration and the previous Administration regarding the aforementioned issues.

Your last line is patently INACCURATE and pretty laughable considering; " In 2011, he (Sarvis) ran for the state Senate as a Republican, losing to Democrat Dick Saslaw; after the election, Sarvis switched to the Libertarian Party."

He actually took more votes from Mcaulliffe instead of Cuccinelli.
"But to blame a major-party loss on third-party candidates is fundamentally mistaken. First off, it ignores data that the Libertarian pulled more votes from the Democratic candidate than he did from the Republican one—an exit poll of Sarvis voters showed that they would have voted for McAuliffe by a two-to-one margin over Cucinelli. Second, and far more important, it presumes that all potential votes somehow really “belong” to either Democrats or Republicans. That’s simply wrong and it does a real disservice to American politics."



I am glad that republicans and conservatives like you are slamming the Libertarians because I think that it will grow and strengthen the Libertarian Party and people who are Liberal and Independent like myself to form a political alliance. So for that, I thank you.

 

[Pheonixops]

Why would the media be afraid of Rand Paul? Then again, you're also arguing that the "Tea Party" is made up of people who don't belong to either party, when it's really just placing the old Moral Majority wine in a new skin.

Regarding Paul, you tell me why because I don't know why, all I know is that they are. They are going out of their way to attach Paul to their definition of "Libertarian" and then smearing that definition. It is what it is.

The Tea Party. How soon some people forget. When it first gained prominence it was a non-partisan movement made up of people who felt that Washington DC was out of touch and out of control (which by the way is a pretty good description for about 60% of the electorate) . It is now seen as the whack-job wing of the GOP due mainly to the constant smear-job given to it by the MSM. I don't like the TP but even I can admit that they aren't anything close to what the MSM claims they are.

In fact both Ron and Rand Paul actually endorsed Cuccinelli instead of endorsing Sarvis. That's quite telling that though they both may have Libertarian leanings (the father more than the son in my opinion) , they are still Republicans and not Libertarians when it comes down to it.................... Here's a Libertarian who used to be a republican:
http://politics.blogs.timesdispatch.com/2013/08/20/gary-johnson-endorses-sarvis-for-governor/

 

[Pheonixops]

By voting for the libertarian party, you are, in effect, voting for Obama, and his statist policies.

Quiet you. Or there'll be a neg in your future.

It's pretty LAME to threaten the guy with some half assed "neg" just because you disagree with his views. I totally disagree with the poster but he or she has a right to speak their mind.

 

[Pheonixops]

Everyone here is spamming nonsense about Bush 43, but Ronald Reagan, and the Tea Party were clearly in favor of smaller government, less taxes, more freedom.

You really should do your research:
"In 1976 I was impressed with Ronald Reagan's program and was one of the four members of Congress who endorsed his candidacy. In 1980, unlike other Republican office holders in Texas, I again supported our President in his efforts.

Since 1981, however, I have gradually and steadily grown weary of the Republican Party's efforts to reduce the size of the federal government. Since then Ronald Reagan and the Republican Party have given us skyrocketing deficits, and astoundingly a doubled national debt. How is it that the party of balanced budgets, with control of the White House and Senate, accumulated red ink greater than all previous administrations put together? (sound familiar?)"

"Tax revenues are up 59 percent since 1980. Because of our economic growth? No. During Carter's four years, we had growth of 37.2 percent; Reagan's five years have given us 30.7 percent. The new revenues are due to four giant Republican tax increases since 1981.

All republicans rightly chastised Carter for his $38 billion deficit. But they ignore or even defend deficits of $220 billion, as government spending has grown 10.4 percent per year since Reagan took office, while the federal payroll has zoomed by a quarter of a million bureaucrats."

"Despite the Supply-Sider-Keynesian claim that "deficits don't matter," the debt presents a grave threat to our country. Thanks to the President and Republican Party, we have lost the chance to reduce the deficit and the spending in a non-crisis fashion. Even worse, big government has been legitimized in a way the Democrats never could have accomplished. It was tragic to listen to Ronald Reagan on the 1986 campaign trail bragging about his high spending on farm subsidies, welfare, warfare, etc., in his futile effort to hold on to control of the Senate."

"Instead of cutting some of the immeasurable waste in the Department of Defense, it has gotten worse, with the inevitable result that we are less secure today. Reagan's foreign aid expenditures exceed Eisenhower's, Kennedy's, Johnson's, Nixon's, Ford's, and Carter's put together. Foreign intervention has exploded since 1980. Only an end to military welfare for foreign governments plus a curtailment of our unconstitutional commitments abroad will enable us really to defend ourselves and solve our financial problems."

"Under the guise of attacking drug use and money laundering, the Republican Administration has systematically attacked personal and financial privacy. The effect has been to victimize innocent Americans who wish to conduct their private lives without government snooping. (Should people really be put on a suspected drug dealer list because they transfer $3,000 at one time?) Reagan's urine testing of Americans without probable cause is a clear violation of our civil liberties, as are his proposals for extensive "lie detector" tests."

"Knowing this administration's record, I wasn't surprised by its Libyan disinformation campaign, Israeli-Iranian arms-for-hostages swap, or illegal funding of the Contras. All this has contributed to my disenchantment with the Republican Party, and helped me make up my mind."

"I want to totally disassociate myself from the policies that have given us unprecedented deficits, massive monetary inflation, indiscriminate military spending, an irrational and unconstitutional foreign policy, zooming foreign aid, the exaltation of international banking, and the attack on our personal liberties and privacy."

Ron Paul's 1987 Resignation Letter to the RNC - Wikisource, the free online library

 

[HelenaHandbag]

You support abortion, a LIBERAL concept, the murder of babies.

Libertarians aren't necessarily pro-choice.

Yes, my brother and I agree on most issues, but abortion is a big exception. He's pro-life, I'm pro-choice.

While I recognize what you say is true, I still don't grasp how a libertarian can think it's the role of government to force a woman to carry a baby to term. And most libertarians don't think that. But it's definitely true that some do.

Then there's the Harry Browne school: Personally pro life, with the recognition that if abortion were outlawed, men would probably find a way to get one.

 

[Pheonixops]

Is that right?

Libertarians support the ABSOLUTE right to bear arms, free enterprise , capitalism, we oppose the "income tax" the federal Reserve Board and the welfare state in its totality.

So we are kind of "weird leftists" , right?

.

You support abortion, a LIBERAL concept, the murder of babies.

Most libertarians don't support abortion, they just don't see it as a place for the government to step in and in my case I just see the uselessness of having it as a political issue. Medical science will end abortion, not 40 more years of posturing.

The FairTax certainly isn't leftist, neither is ending the federal monstrosity known as the war on drugs.

I don't like the idea of the "Prebate" because it would be a check cut from the government and can be used as a "tool" to sucker people into voting for people who want to increase the Prebate.............. In my opinion, it's just a welfare check.

"8: Con: The fair tax increases entitlements. From Wikipedia:

Under the FairTax, family households of lawful U.S. residents would receive a “Family Consumption Allowance” (FCA) based on family size (regardless of income) that is equal to the estimated total FairTax paid on poverty level spending according to the poverty guidelines published by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services … Opponents of the plan criticize this tax rebate due to its costs. Economists at the Beacon Hill Institute estimated the overall rebate cost to be $489 billion (assuming 100 percent participation). In addition, economist Bruce Bartlett has argued that the rebate would create a large opportunity for fraud, treats children disparately, and would constitute a welfare payment regardless of need."

 

[Pheonixops]

Libertarians aren't necessarily pro-choice.

Yes, my brother and I agree on most issues, but abortion is a big exception. He's pro-life, I'm pro-choice.

While I recognize what you say is true, I still don't grasp how a libertarian can think it's the role of government to force a woman to carry a baby to term. And most libertarians don't think that. But it's definitely true that some do.

Then there's the Harry Browne school: Personally pro life, with the recognition that if abortion were outlawed, men would probably find a way to get one.

I like Harry Brown's philosophy and I especially like this letter he wrote:
A Gift for My Daughter

 

[asterism]

BoiKing proposes cuts, doesn't submit a budget with any cuts, but talks about it. Let us rejoice.
BFD

The nuts on the left went ballistic when Bush's deficit was $400 Billion and now cheer a $700 Billion deficit as some sort of grand achievement.

They criticized 6% unemployment and cheer 7.3% unemployment now.

Trendlines matter as much as absolute levels.

So why did they criticize 6% and heading down fast while cheering 7.3% and heading down very slowly?

 

[asterism]

You support abortion, a LIBERAL concept, the murder of babies.

Most libertarians don't support abortion, they just don't see it as a place for the government to step in and in my case I just see the uselessness of having it as a political issue. Medical science will end abortion, not 40 more years of posturing.

The FairTax certainly isn't leftist, neither is ending the federal monstrosity known as the war on drugs.

I don't like the idea of the "Prebate" because it would be a check cut from the government and can be used as a "tool" to sucker people into voting for people who want to increase the Prebate.............. In my opinion, it's just a welfare check.

"8: Con: The fair tax increases entitlements. From Wikipedia:

Under the FairTax, family households of lawful U.S. residents would receive a “Family Consumption Allowance” (FCA) based on family size (regardless of income) that is equal to the estimated total FairTax paid on poverty level spending according to the poverty guidelines published by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services … Opponents of the plan criticize this tax rebate due to its costs. Economists at the Beacon Hill Institute estimated the overall rebate cost to be $489 billion (assuming 100 percent participation). In addition, economist Bruce Bartlett has argued that the rebate would create a large opportunity for fraud, treats children disparately, and would constitute a welfare payment regardless of need."

It certainly isn't a perfect solution but it does insure that poverty spending levels are not taxed. It's a compromise to shift the strategy from one of tax avoidance and playing favorites to one of increased growth and fairness.

 

[TRFjr]

Libertarians, and conservatives are essentially one and the same.

For example...

Do you love freedom?

Do you love Liberty?

Do you love the free market?

Do you hate Obama's tax and spend failonomics?

Do you despise abortion as the aberration it is?

Do you love capitalism?

Do you want to decrease the size of the federal government?

Do you believe in reasonably equal opportunity, instead of equal outcome?

If you agree with any of these, you should vote for GoP!

first of all abortion is a split issue within the libertarian party it all depends when the individual believes life begins there for deserves the liberties and rights as any other human
what separates libertarians and conservatives is social issues if conservatives could shed of the religious rights agenda there could be a libertarian and conservative merger

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

You support abortion, a LIBERAL concept, the murder of babies.

Libertarians aren't necessarily pro-choice.

Yes, my brother and I agree on most issues, but abortion is a big exception. He's pro-life, I'm pro-choice.

While I recognize what you say is true, I still don't grasp how a libertarian can think it's the role of government to force a woman to carry a baby to term. And most libertarians don't think that. But it's definitely true that some do.

Well if they think that abortion is the same as taking a life then it's easy to see how a libertarian could be pro-life the same way they might support the government making laws against murder.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Why would the media be afraid of Rand Paul? Then again, you're also arguing that the "Tea Party" is made up of people who don't belong to either party, when it's really just placing the old Moral Majority wine in a new skin.

Regarding Paul, you tell me why because I don't know why, all I know is that they are. They are going out of their way to attach Paul to their definition of "Libertarian" and then smearing that definition. It is what it is.

The Tea Party. How soon some people forget. When it first gained prominence it was a non-partisan movement made up of people who felt that Washington DC was out of touch and out of control (which by the way is a pretty good description for about 60% of the electorate) . It is now seen as the whack-job wing of the GOP due mainly to the constant smear-job given to it by the MSM. I don't like the TP but even I can admit that they aren't anything close to what the MSM claims they are.

In fact both Ron and Rand Paul actually endorsed Cuccinelli instead of endorsing Sarvis. That's quite telling that though they both may have Libertarian leanings (the father more than the son in my opinion) , they are still Republicans and not Libertarians when it comes down to it.................... Here's a Libertarian who used to be a republican:
Gary Johnson endorses Sarvis for governor - Richmond Times-Dispatch

Ron Paul actually spoke on this subject, and it wasn't because he was a loyal Republican that he endorsed the Republican over the Libertarian candidate. It's simply that he saw what the rest of us saw in that Sarvis was obviously in no way shape or form a libertarian. Now I'm not convinced that that excuses his endorsement of Cuccinelli, but I certainly don't blame him for not endorsing Sarvis.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Libertarians aren't necessarily pro-choice.

Yes, my brother and I agree on most issues, but abortion is a big exception. He's pro-life, I'm pro-choice.

While I recognize what you say is true, I still don't grasp how a libertarian can think it's the role of government to force a woman to carry a baby to term. And most libertarians don't think that. But it's definitely true that some do.

Then there's the Harry Browne school: Personally pro life, with the recognition that if abortion were outlawed, men would probably find a way to get one.

The pro-life libertarian might respond that men find a way to kill one another despite the law and despite the fact that nobody thinks that laws against murder ought to be repealed on this basis.

 

[HelenaHandbag]

Yes, my brother and I agree on most issues, but abortion is a big exception. He's pro-life, I'm pro-choice.

While I recognize what you say is true, I still don't grasp how a libertarian can think it's the role of government to force a woman to carry a baby to term. And most libertarians don't think that. But it's definitely true that some do.

Then there's the Harry Browne school: Personally pro life, with the recognition that if abortion were outlawed, men would probably find a way to get one.

The pro-life libertarian might respond that men find a way to kill one another despite the law and despite the fact that nobody thinks that laws against murder ought to be repealed on this basis.

True as that may be, there are few libertarians who don't believe Roe to be horribly bad law, no matter which camp they're in.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Then there's the Harry Browne school: Personally pro life, with the recognition that if abortion were outlawed, men would probably find a way to get one.

The pro-life libertarian might respond that men find a way to kill one another despite the law and despite the fact that nobody thinks that laws against murder ought to be repealed on this basis.

True as that may be, there are few libertarians who don't believe Roe to be horribly bad law, no matter which camp they're in.

This is true.