Why did England and France declare war on Germany?

[elvis]

I know, they made a war guarantee to Poland, but why? Picture this.....

the US makes a war guarantee to Nicaragua should it be attacked by El Salvador. El Salvador attacks Nicaragua, the US declares war on El Salvador, and in return, El Salvador bombards New York City (London) for days and days in a row. That doesn't seem worth it to me. Why was it worth it for England?

 

[Diuretic]

You make a treaty, you stick to it. Besides, they knew what Hitler was up to - lebensraum - a Greater Europe under German control.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Hitler broke many treaties and basically fought two wars prior to Poland. While Austria was not a shooting war, it was a war none the less. The Nazis managed with key assassinations and pressure politically to absorb Austria and then after forcing Britain and France to Cave on Czecheslovakia the two Nations stood by while the Nazis over ran that Country too.

Hitler broke the terms of the treaty that ended WW1, he rearmed and reequiped his Army, created an Air Force ( with the Soviets aid, they trained his pilots) He increased the military way past the terms of the treaty as well. Then to start the ball rolling he invade Alsac Lorriane and the French retreated, so no shooting there.

Unknown to the French, Hitler ordered his Military to retreat back to Germany if the French put up any resistance, he was not ready for a shooting war.

Poland was the final Straw. And then France and Britain fucked that up with the fake war from September 39 until April 40. Hitler had stripped the Western Armies to invade Poland. He had no real Divisions on the western front at all. They were reserves and cadre of Divisions. All his armor and most of his Air Force was also on the Poland Campaign. His Navy was a joke compared to the British. And I believe he only had 39 Submarines in 1939. And most of those were old models.

 

[elvis]

Hitler broke many treaties and basically fought two wars prior to Poland. While Austria was not a shooting war, it was a war none the less. The Nazis managed with key assassinations and pressure politically to absorb Austria and then after forcing Britain and France to Cave on Czecheslovakia the two Nations stood by while the Nazis over ran that Country too.

Hitler broke the terms of the treaty that ended WW1, he rearmed and reequiped his Army, created an Air Force ( with the Soviets aid, they trained his pilots) He increased the military way past the terms of the treaty as well. Then to start the ball rolling he invade Alsac Lorriane and the French retreated, so no shooting there.

Unknown to the French, Hitler ordered his Military to retreat back to Germany if the French put up any resistance, he was not ready for a shooting war.

Poland was the final Straw. And then France and Britain fucked that up with the fake war from September 39 until April 40. Hitler had stripped the Western Armies to invade Poland. He had no real Divisions on the western front at all. They were reserves and cadre of Divisions. All his armor and most of his Air Force was also on the Poland Campaign. His Navy was a joke compared to the British. And I believe he only had 39 Submarines in 1939. And most of those were old models.

His navy was a joke because he didn't want a war with Britain. What German agreed to the Versailles Treaty? That was the worst treaty ever written, and was responsible for WW2, in my opinion. I believe it was the Rheinland- Falz the Germans were supposed to stay out of and the French did not send divisions into. Alsace-Lorraine was taken back by France in 1918 (after Germany took it from France in 1871).
Why did the Allies give Danzig to Poland? didn't that give the Germans a reason to want to attack?

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Well, first he took Austria. Then he took Czechoslovakia. Then he took Poland.

I guess the British and the French started to think "Hmmm... well, he's getting awful close to running out of places to take".

 

[tigerbob]

His navy was a joke because he didn't want a war with Britain. What German agreed to the Versailles Treaty? That was the worst treaty ever written, and was responsible for WW2, in my opinion. I believe it was the Rheinland- Falz the Germans were supposed to stay out of and the French did not send divisions into. Alsace-Lorraine was taken back by France in 1918 (after Germany took it from France in 1871).
Why did the Allies give Danzig to Poland? didn't that give the Germans a reason to want to attack?

Britain didn't want war in 1938. It wasn't ready for war. If you have a mooch through Churchill's "The Wilderness Years" you will notice that, while Churchill had been warning for years about Hitler and the gathering pace of German rearmament, successive British Prime Ministers (Baldwin and Chamberlain) did all they could to ignore German rearmament and hope it went away. Finally, when it was too big to ignore, they tried to cover it up. When it was too big to be covered, they tried to appease it - anything in fact but take it on militarily.

Hitler for his part wanted an alliance with Britain. He believed that the British and German nations were kindred spirits and that Britain could be relied upon to stand by and let Germany do as it pleased, or even to be the Third Reich's military ally. There were many Nazi sympathizers in Britain at that time, some of whom had huge influence politically - such as Unity and Diana Mitford, Oswald Mosley and Lord Rothermere (proprietor of the Daily Mail).

Danzig was given to Poland to provide the Polish state with access to the sea. That said, it was almost completely a German city, and remained an independent 'country within a country', supposedly under the auspices of the League of Nations (ROFL). The Polish Corridor also separated Germany from Prussia (very pro German). Most of Poland's imports and exports were seaborne and Poland had applied pressure for sea access - without it, Poland would have been trade-reliant on Germany. It was first suggested in Woodrow Wilson's 14 points. Bizarrely, the 14 points was a speech addressed to a purely American audience as a bit of PR, and ended up becoming allied policy at the end of WWI. In answer to your question, I have no idea why the allies accepted it. But then again, the idea of America dabbling in areas of foreign policy it does not understand is nothing new (although perhaps it was new 90 years ago).

Britain should have stood up to Hitler when Czechoslovakia was invaded, but Chamberlain returned from Munich with a handful of worthless guarantees which served only to allow Hitler to consolidate and negotiate a non aggression pact with Russia. It might be fair to say, however, that if Britain had gone to war in 1938 it would have been beaten in double quick time, if judged on the 'success' of the British Expeditionary Force a year later.

Even then, if Hitler had launched Operation Sealion after Dunkirk, there are few in Britain who believe the result would have been anything but the over-running and defeat of Britain within a matter of months (the intention is believed to have been to cut off and besiege London), leaving Hitler free to concentrate fully on Barbarossa. Had this happened, Germany would have had pretty much complete control of Western Europe 18 months before the US entered the war, in which case I doubt the US would have entered the war in Europe at all, as there would have been little or no Europe left to fight for.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Sea Lion was a farce. Germany could not mount it or pull it off while Britain had a fleet or air Force. The troops would have been ferried to England aboard RIVER Barges. Towed by something. Slow, ponderous and easily sunk. Assuming they managed to reach England they did not have the means to supply the Invasion force either. Again the British would have simply cut the sea link and the German forces would have withered on the vine.

The Germans did not have an effective air presence that could engage naval forces and drive them out of the channel. They could not protect the invasion force from air attack either.

As for the US, You are aware we NEVER ratified the Peace Terms from WW1? Technically we remained at war with Germany until the end of WW2. Wilson did not agree with the treaty as it was written and warned that it would just cause problems in the future.

 

[tigerbob]

Sea Lion was a farce. Germany could not mount it or pull it off while Britain had a fleet or air Force. The troops would have been ferried to England aboard RIVER Barges. Towed by something. Slow, ponderous and easily sunk. Assuming they managed to reach England they did not have the means to supply the Invasion force either. Again the British would have simply cut the sea link and the German forces would have withered on the vine. Agree, but had Hitler not switched to bombing London rather than bombing Fighter Command's airbases that would have been the end of the RAF. Without air cover, the Navy would have been hard pressed to keep the channel under control, as you indeed go on to say.

The Germans did not have an effective air presence that could engage naval forces and drive them out of the channel. They could not protect the invasion force from air attack either.

As for the US, You are aware we NEVER ratified the Peace Terms from WW1? Technically we remained at war with Germany until the end of WW2. Wilson did not agree with the treaty as it was written and warned that it would just cause problems in the future. Yes, I did know that, though to be honest I never really understood why. I must look it up sometime.

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[del]

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i never understood why the luftwaffe didn't go after the radar installations in SW england. they gave the brits a huge advantage.

 

[tigerbob]

i never understood why the luftwaffe didn't go after the radar installations in SW england. they gave the brits a huge advantage.

So legend has it, a German bomber, somewhat lost on a cloudy night, dropped it's stack of bombs on London by mistake. This gave Churchill the chance he was looking for - to bomb Berlin in retaliation. This calculated risk paid off. Hitler, not known for his calm demeanor, reacted by promising the German people that he would obliterate London. Thereafter, much of German bombing targeted London, which meant the RAF had time to repair cratered airfields and damaged radar installations. Effectively, Churchill traded the lives of Londoners for maintaining air supremacy. Interestingly, this policy is also what led to my mother getting her ears pierced, but that's another story.

Londoners had mixed feelings about this. There is evidence that some resented being used as bait. On the othr hand, there is a story about Churchill visiting the east end of London and being distraught at the destruction he saw, but had his resolve redoubled when a chirpy cockney voice shouted out "Don't worry Winston - we can take it!"

Then of course there is the other story about why the RAF always knew where German raids were headed. Any British pilot shot down was supposed to tell interrogators that the RAF force fed it's pilots carrots, since they aided night vision.

 

[Annie]

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Actually Wilson tried to get the Senate to ratify The Treaty of Versailles, they wouldn't, he wouldn't go along with their proposed reservations, thus no approval and no League of Nations.

 

[mightypeon]

On a sidenote regarding Versailles, when Germany offered negotiations, they (mistakenly) thought that the "peace treaty" would have something to do with the 14 points of Wilson, obviously it did not. This added to the German outrage regarding Versailles.

 

[mightypeon]

The Luftwaffe for some reason hugely underestimated the effects of the Radar, may have something to do with the Luftwaffes head, Goering was not really known for his military skills.

 

[DiveCon]

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because it was too punitive and would not work
Wilson had his faults in the domestic issues, but he knew foriegn policy
the Senate was too isolationist at that time also

 

[Xenophon]

Essentially because they allowed czechoslovakia to be destroyed without consulting the czechs.

BTW, it wasn't worth it for either, they lost their empires because of it.

 

[tigerbob]

Essentially because they allowed czechoslovakia to be destroyed without consulting the czechs.

BTW, it wasn't worth it for either, they lost their empires because of it.

Depends how you define not worth it. Empires were becoming a thing of the past anyway. If Britain had not belatedly stood up to Hitler simply to protect it's fast fading 'empire', it would have been a national disgrace. As it turned out, it ended the empire and bankrupted Britain, but it was still the right thing to do.

In fact, Britain only finished paying back the US a couple years ago....

Britain pays 1945 war debt - Times Online

 

[Orange_Juice]

Sea Lion was a farce. Germany could not mount it or pull it off while Britain had a fleet or air Force. The troops would have been ferried to England aboard RIVER Barges. Towed by something. Slow, ponderous and easily sunk. Assuming they managed to reach England they did not have the means to supply the Invasion force either. Again the British would have simply cut the sea link and the German forces would have withered on the vine.

The Germans did not have an effective air presence that could engage naval forces and drive them out of the channel. They could not protect the invasion force from air attack either.

As for the US, You are aware we NEVER ratified the Peace Terms from WW1? Technically we remained at war with Germany until the end of WW2. Wilson did not agree with the treaty as it was written and warned that it would just cause problems in the future.

No. We actually signed a seperate treaty with Germany and were not at war with them in the pre-war period

 

[Orange_Juice]

England and France did not want war, but Germany was a bigger country than either of those two and was basically looking to repeat WW1. Germany had to be contained, they felt, so they made a treaty with Poland. What they should have done was make a treaty with the Soviet Union and Hitler would have been in a fix. But the Conservatives in England and France hated that idea so Stalin made a treaty with Hitler over Poland.

 

[Munin]

You make a treaty, you stick to it. Besides, they knew what Hitler was up to - lebensraum - a Greater Europe under German control.

No they didn't knew what he was up to (the official governments at the time), because otherwise they would have stopped him when he broke the first of the rules he had to abide by (debt of WWI) and he never would have gotten as far as he did (because his military wasn't up for the Job at that time). Only Churchill and a couple of other people who were not in power to prevent it knew he was up to no good. He played the French and the English until he attacked poland.

 

[Munin]

I know, they made a war guarantee to Poland, but why? Picture this.....

the US makes a war guarantee to Nicaragua should it be attacked by El Salvador. El Salvador attacks Nicaragua, the US declares war on El Salvador, and in return, El Salvador bombards New York City (London) for days and days in a row. That doesn't seem worth it to me. Why was it worth it for England?

It was not just a war guarantee, it was a military alliance (like NATO) that Poland joined in on.

Why it was worth it for England: probably better relations with that Nation, leading to a higher trade and favorable trade agreements and not to forget: a stronger alliance (Poland fielded the third biggest army among the European Allies, after the Soviet Union and Great Britain, but before France). At that time Germany was believed to be defeated from WWI and not capable of ever waging war again (huge debt and economic problems: people were starving from hunger), so the British government initially never saw Germany as a threat to them.