Lincoln's War

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I am once again going to argue that the Civil War, or more accurately the War Between the States, was not fought over the issue of slavery. I don’t expect to change anybody’s mind, but hopefully this won’t be dismissed outright. I believe that the war between the states was fought over tariffs, as I’ve said before.

Lincoln did not recognize the right of the southern states to secede from the Union, and fully intended to wage the Civil War if the southern states would not pay the tariffs and taxes he felt they still owed to the federal government. He stated this in his first Inaugural Address.

“In doing this there needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere.” – Abraham Lincoln

Abraham Lincoln: First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989

The Confederacy “fired the first shots” when they attacked Fort Sumter in South Carolina, this is a historical fact. However, let’s look at the context of why they attacked Fort Sumter. The south did not attack Fort Sumter until Lincoln attempted to re-supply the fort. Lincoln knew they would not stand for this, because he refused to meet with the Confederacy’s delegates when Jefferson Davis sent them to Washington to attempt to pay for the south’s portion of the national debt and to purchase any federal property left in the south.

Lincoln deliberately attempted to re-supply Fort Sumter knowing that the Confederacy would never allow that to happen. Since we have established that Lincoln had every intention of waging war against the south, we can assume that he wanted to provoke the Confederates into attacking first.

The reason for this is because a majority of Americans would have, and did, believe in the right of secession. The New England states held a convention to decide whether it would be in their best interest to secede in 1814. They did not debate whether they had the right to do so, and James Madison did not attempt to stop them in any way. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison believed in the right of secession, as evidenced by their Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions. The mayor of New York City wanted to secede from the Union and the state of New York because he realized that protectionism was going to hurt his city the same as it hurt the south.

Lincoln needed the south to attack first because he knew that nobody would support his war otherwise. He wanted to invoke the patriotism and national pride of the northern states, and he needed the south to attack for that to happen.

The south fought in the war between the states because they believed in their right of self-governance. They believed in this American tradition as stated in the Declaration of Independence.

“Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its power in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.” – Declaration of Independence

While I am aware that the Declaration has no legal authority, it has the moral authority of the men who founded our nation. The founders believed in the right of self-governance, and it was on that belief that the south chose to secede from a government that they believed was no longer looking out for their best interests. Also, the Constitution does not prohibit the states from seceding, and under the 10th Amendment they retain the right to leave if they wish.

The south fought for their independence in the Civil War, no less than the colonies fought for their independence in the Revolutionary War. Lincoln waged the Civil War to force the south back into the Union so that they could pay the tariffs he fully intended to force on them.

I know this issue has been discussed many times over on this board, but I hope that some of you are interested in my argument.

 

[Dr Grump]

Most Southerners would agree with you (well, ones that I have spoken to). I'll say this: Do you think there would have been a civil war if there had been no slavery? I think not because without slavery, there would have been no southern economy (well, cotton economy anyway) and therefore no tariff problems. They wanted to secede so they could keep slavery. Period.

 

[glockmail]

I always thought it was about free market economics, of which slavery violated the principles.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Most Southerners would agree with you (well, ones that I have spoken to). I'll say this: Do you think there would have been a civil war if there had been no slavery? I think not because without slavery, there would have been no southern economy (well, cotton economy anyway) and therefore no tariff problems. They wanted to secede so they could keep slavery. Period.

They would have been allowed to keep slavery had they stayed in the Union, because Lincoln did not support emancipating the slaves. So if slavery was the issue it would have made more sense to stay within the Union. Since the issue was tariffs, and Lincoln ran on a platform of more and higher tariffs, the south seceded.

Are you suggesting that the government imposed tariffs on the south because of slavery?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I always thought it was about free market economics, of which slavery violated the principles.

Slavery violates the principles of liberty.

 

[Dr Grump]

Lincoln did not support emancipating the slaves. ?

A speech he made in 1854 would suggest otherwise (my bold).

"[The Act has a] declared indifference, but as I must think, covert real zeal for the spread of slavery, I cannot but hate it. I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it because it deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world — enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites — causes the real friends of freedom to doubt our sincerity, and especially because it forces so many really good men amongst ourselves into an open war with the very fundamental principles of civil liberty — criticizing the Declaration of Independence, and insisting that there is no right principle of action but self-interest."

 

[Xenophon]

The South understood the handwriting was on the wall, the abolitionist were winning the hearts and mind of the US, and it was unlikely any more slave states would be admitted to the Union.

This was the basis for 'bleeding Kansas' when slavers tried to force slavery on that territory and abolitionists like John Brown fought back.

Many in the South always claim the 'states rights' argument but the people of the time fully understood that the bases of the war was the fundemental disagreement of slavery, the North felt it incompatible with a growing industrial society while the south lacking population felt it vital for it's agarain society.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

If Slavery was not the issue explain to us, again, why most of the States leaving the Union LISTED slavery as the Cause for which they were leaving?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

A speech he made in 1854 would suggest otherwise (my bold).

"[The Act has a] declared indifference, but as I must think, covert real zeal for the spread of slavery, I cannot but hate it. I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it because it deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world — enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites — causes the real friends of freedom to doubt our sincerity, and especially because it forces so many really good men amongst ourselves into an open war with the very fundamental principles of civil liberty — criticizing the Declaration of Independence, and insisting that there is no right principle of action but self-interest."

Quotes by Abraham Lincoln.

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races."

"I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The South understood the handwriting was on the wall, the abolitionist were winning the hearts and mind of the US, and it was unlikely any more slave states would be admitted to the Union.

This was the basis for 'bleeding Kansas' when slavers tried to force slavery on that territory and abolitionists like John Brown fought back.

Many in the South always claim the 'states rights' argument but the people of the time fully understood that the bases of the war was the fundemental disagreement of slavery, the North felt it incompatible with a growing industrial society while the south lacking population felt it vital for it's agarain society.

No, abolitionists were not "winning the hearts and mind of the US." The north was still a very racist place, and probably more dangerous for black people than the south was.

The war was fought because Lincoln wanted the south back in the Union so that the government could loot them for all they were worth through tariffs and taxes. How could it be about slavery? The Union had 5 slave-states fighting with them during the Civil War.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If Slavery was not the issue explain to us, again, why most of the States leaving the Union LISTED slavery as the Cause for which they were leaving?

Explain to us why slavery was not once mentioned in Jefferson Davis' Inaugural Address?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Explain to us why slavery was not once mentioned in Jefferson Davis' Inaugural Address?

Explain to us why the Reason given in the declarations leaving the Union stated that slavery was the reason they were leaving? I do not care what Jefferson Davis said.

Trying to change the facts now is called revisionism. Was the Civil war fought because of States rights? Yes it was. Was it fought for because the South believed that in the Future slavery would be in danger, yes it was. Did most of the States leaving the Union STATE that slavery was the main cause of their departure, YES it was.

Did Taxes play a part? Not as much. Taxes were not the deciding factor, the slavery issue was, which explains why the South STAYED in the UNION until Lincoln was elected. Or perhaps you can explain to us what tax policies Lincoln embrassed in his run for President that caused those States to leave?

You are aware they left because Lincoln was elected? You are aware Lincoln raised NO Army until After the South fired on the Union? He sat and di nothing while the South Armed itself and raised armies, while it seized Federal armories and forts. Lincoln only called for troops after the South resorted to open warfare.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I have already acknowledged and stated that Lincoln did not initiate his war until the south attacked Fort Sumter, and I already gave the reasons why that occurred.

The south had no reason to believe that Lincoln had any intention to end slavery because he never said that he intended to do so, and acknowledged his support of an amendment to the Constitution making slavery permanent. He was a huge supporter of protective tariffs, and that is why he was such a hit in the north and specifically in Pennsylvania. He referred to himself as an "old Henry Clay Whig." Henry Clay's American System advocated for, among other things, high protectionist tariffs. It was also the reason why he had absolutely no support in the south. His intention to raise tariffs and add new ones is why the south left when he was elected.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And yet most of the States that left SPECIFICALLY listed Slavery as the State right they were leaving for. Explain that to us ohh revisionist one.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

And yet most of the States that left SPECIFICALLY listed Slavery as the State right they were leaving for. Explain that to us ohh revisionist one.

Feel free to provide your sources.

In the meantime, please explain why Jefferson Davis did not see fit to list slavery as a major grievance the Confederates had against the Union. Yet he did feel it necessary to assert that, "Our policy is peace, and the freest trade our necessities will permit." Sounds like he saw tariffs as a major problem, at least in my opinion.

Jefferson Davis's Inaugural Address

Also, considering that tariffs were prohibited in Article 1 Section 8 of the Confederate Constitution, it would seem that the south very strongly disagreed with the protectionist policies of the north and wanted nothing to do with them.

Avalon Project - Constitution of the Confederate States; March 11, 1861

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Feel free to provide your sources.

In the meantime, please explain why Jefferson Davis did not see fit to list slavery as a major grievance the Confederates had against the Union. Yet he did feel it necessary to assert that, "Our policy is peace, and the freest trade our necessities will permit." Sounds like he saw tariffs as a major problem, at least in my opinion.

Jefferson Davis's Inaugural Address

Also, considering that tariffs were prohibited in Article 1 Section 8 of the Confederate Constitution, it would seem that the south very strongly disagreed with the protectionist policies of the north and wanted nothing to do with them.

Avalon Project - Constitution of the Confederate States; March 11, 1861

In other words you are to stupid to discuss this issue but want to make apologies for the South. Sorry I don't play that game.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

In other words you are to stupid to discuss this issue but want to make apologies for the South. Sorry I don't play that game.

I'm making apologies for the south by asking you to provide your sources?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

American Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read it and weep.

Slavery

Main article: History of slavery in the United States

Support for secession was strongly correlated to the number of plantations in the region; states of the deep South which had the greatest concentration of plantations were the first to secede. The upper South slave states of Virginia, North Carolina, Arkansas, and Tennessee had fewer plantations and rejected secession until the Fort Sumter crisis forced them to choose sides. Border states had fewer plantations still and never seceded.[36][37][38] As of 1850 the percentage of Southern whites living in families that owned slaves was 43 percent in the lower South, 36 percent in the upper South and 22 percent in the border states that fought mostly for the Union.[38] 85 percent of slaveowners who owned 100 or more slaves lived in the lower South, as opposed to one percent in the border states.[38] Ninety-five percent of blacks lived in the South, comprising one third of the population there as opposed to one percent of the population of the North. Consequently, fears of eventual emancipation were much greater in the South than in the North.[39]
Abraham Lincoln 16th President of the United States (1861–1865)

The Supreme Court decision of 1857 in Dred Scott v. Sandford added to the controversy. Chief Justice Roger B. Taney's decision said that slaves were "so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect",[40] and that slavery could spread into the territories. Lincoln warned that "the next Dred Scott decision"[41] could threaten Northern states with slavery.

Northern politician Abraham Lincoln said, "this question of Slavery was more important than any other; indeed, so much more important has it become that no other national question can even get a hearing just at present."[42] The slavery issue was related to sectional competition for control of the territories,[43] and the Southern demand for a slave code for the territories was the issue used by Southern politicians to split the Democratic Party in two, which all but guaranteed the election of Lincoln and secession. When secession was an issue, South Carolina planter and state Senator John Townsend said that "our enemies are about to take possession of the Government, that they intend to rule us according to the caprices of their fanatical theories, and according to the declared purposes of abolishing slavery."[44] Similar opinions were expressed throughout the South in editorials, political speeches and declarations of reasons for secession. Even though Lincoln had no plans to outlaw slavery where it existed, Southerners throughout the South expressed fears for the future of slavery.

Southern concerns included not only economic loss but also fears of racial equality.[45][46][47][48] The Texas Declaration of Causes for Secession[49][50] said that the non-slave-holding states were "proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color", and that the African race "were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race". Alabama secessionist E. S. Dargan warned that whites and free blacks could not live together; if slaves were emancipated and remained in the South, “we ourselves would become the executioners of our own slaves. To this extent would the policy of our Northern enemies drive us; and thus would we not only be reduced to poverty, but what is still worse, we should be driven to crime, to the commission of sin.”[51]

Beginning in the 1830s, the U.S. Postmaster General refused to allow mail which carried abolition pamphlets to the South.[52] Northern teachers suspected of any tinge of abolitionism were expelled from the South, and abolitionist literature was banned. Southerners rejected the denials of Republicans that they were abolitionists.[53] The North felt threatened as well, for as Eric Foner concludes, "Northerners came to view slavery as the very antithesis of the good society, as well as a threat to their own fundamental values and interests".[54]

and

The coexistence of a slave-owning South with an increasingly anti-slavery North made conflict likely. Lincoln did not propose federal laws against slavery where it already existed, but he had, in his 1858 House Divided Speech, expressed a desire to "arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction".[1] Much of the political battle in the 1850s focused on the expansion of slavery into the newly created territories.[2][3][4] All of the organized territories were likely to become free-soil states, which increased the Southern movement toward secession. Both North and South assumed that if slavery could not expand it would wither and die.[5][6][7]

Lots more there. Including South Carolina's excuse for leaving.

 

[RodISHI]

I'm making apologies for the south by asking you to provide your sources?

I am wondering if the lastest generation thinks that if it is not posted on the Net it must not be true?

 

[glockmail]

Slavery violates the principles of liberty.

... and free market economics.