Ray From Cleveland
Diamond Member
- Aug 16, 2015
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We could fire 75% of all government employees in this country and the only way people would notice is when they realize how much easier it made their lives.I don't think you quite understood what I was saying. I said getting the virus under control was just about impossible due to lack test kits and spread of the outbreaks. This was the beginning of the 2nd week of March. We had over 4,000 cases spread over a dozen states and new cases breaking out at a rate of a thousand a day. In order to get the virus under control, we would have needed tens of thousands of test kits. We had only a couple of thousand and most of those were defective. That means the most important tool in stopping the spread of the virus, testing/tracking/quarantining/monitoring was not available to us. So we had to go on to the mitigation phase, separating people to slow the spread of virus. We lost the first of battle, containing the virus during the first few months due primarily to the lack of testing. However, the war was certainly not over.I'm not faulting Trump for what happen after he actually started taking the pandemic seriously, about March 10th. As you say he did do things then that any president would have done but by then getting the virus under control was just about impossible considering the situation with the lack of testing and the rapid spread of the virus. I'm sure at that point his medical advisors new the only reasonable course of action was mediation; that is, reducing contact between people to slow the spread of virus and reduce hospitalization giving our healthcare people a chance to prepare for the next wave of cases. Those measures to reduce human contact have reduced new cases and new deaths in the country and would have probably controlled the spread of virus if we would have continued. However, the need to open up the economy has made that impossible and most probably will result in a second wave.The pandemic response team setup by Trump in January was an advisory committee to the president chaired by Pence. It had no authority. It was composed of about half the cabinet, Fauci and Birx and several economist. As far as I can tell. Trump never attended any meeting until around March 11, when he addressed the country about the virus. There was no project manager and thus there was no management of the response, unless you consider Trump wagging his head and saying that sound good a manager. I remember attending a Project Management class years ago. At the beginning of the class the instructor said the two essential requirements tor a project is a plan and a manager. The Pandemic Response Team had neither.The team charged with creating a pandemic response was disbanded in 2018. They had no authority other creating a plan. The new team formed by Trump on Jan 31, 2020 was basically and advisory group led by Mike Pence. Trump did not get involve with the team until early March. They simple gave advice to president. Trump seem to be in charge or maybe the project was designed and managed by committee. Either way, Trump was responsible for the nation's response to virus.As you should be aware, the CDC has very specific responsibility. The CDC is primarily concerned with communicable diseases, and epidemics. It is most involved with healthcare aspects of the epidemic. However there lots of other agencies involve because of huge scope of the response. The NIH is a broad base medical research center consisting of 27 institutes that do medical research on everything from ingrowing toenails to cancer. America's response to the pandemic required coordination between many agencies plus all the states. The state plans should have been meshed with the federal plans except there were no federal plans. Thus we had an almost constant argument over responsibilities. Most states assumed the feds would do more and the feds assume the states would do more. To this day, I don't think the states and federal government are together on testing.Basically, the U.S. pandemic infrastructure was like an enormous orchestra full of talented players, each jockeying for solos and fame, refusing to rehearse, and without a conductor. Even worst, they had no sheet music. Trump took care that by disbanding the pandemic response team whose job was to create a pandemic response plan.Who is responsible for the management and coordination of the federal agencies? I really don't know. Trump's job seems to be that of a commentator about the shortfalls of government, the media, and democratic party. His primary roll when he meets with the pandemic response team seems to be to make comments about the issues, some pertinent and some inane, leaving it to various agents to decide what to do. However, whoever is responsible for management and coordination should be fired for gross incompetence. There is no excuse for the CDC to distribute test kits that can't be processed by the states. And even worse the CDC sending test kits out that the FDA does not allow to be processed, failing to order reagents needed to build test kits, and no PPE's for labs or instructions as to how to process tests. This is nuts.An according to you none of the responsibility lies with the president, the commander and chief. If Donald Trump does not bear the responsibility for the planning and coordination of American's response to the virus, who does? Maybe it's his CDC director he appointed or his FEMA director he appointed or his Secretary of Health and Human Services, he appointed ? No, not any of these guys? I guess it's just the whole damn federal government that's responsible.No one is blaming Trump for the virus. They are blaming him for his response to it. The US has the worst record in fighting the virus of all major nations and Trump bears the responsibility, not China, not Obama, not the democrats, not the governors, not the hospitals, or anyone else he's tried to blamed.Those agencies that you’re holding responsible are part of the Trump administration. They work for Trump. And their director serves at his pleasure. Their performance is his responsibility and that responsibility cannot transferred or denied. As a CEO, he is well aware of this but he wants you to believe that he bears no responsibility for what any his agencies do.
No it does not, especially when our government agencies were mostly responsible. I never said it was the job of Governors, Mayors or the Speaker of the House. I'm merely pointing out that nobody had any idea how bad this could or would get. My father is 88 years old, and in spite of growing up in extreme poverty, he said he's never experienced anything like this in his life.
When we used to talk about the great economy under President Trump, the left always inserted how it was really Hussein's economy that Trump came in with. Now that we are facing such a crisis, don't bring anybody into the mix. The buck stops at the President. It's amazing.
Top disease official: Risk of coronavirus in USA is 'minuscule'; skip mask and wash hands
Should I wear a mask? The U.S. infectious disease chief says no: "In the U.S. there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to wear a mask right now."www.usatoday.com
In regard to the US response to the virus, the responsibility falls directly on the president because he failed to make the response to virus a priority within his administration. In fact he did just opposite. He called the virus just the common flu. He ridiculed the news media for raising the alarm and called it a hoax. When the subject of the virus would come up he claimed it was all under control. When this is the opinion of your boss, how high a priority would you give it? The CDC sure didn’t give it much priority in getting test kits that worked and FEMA who’s responsible for maintaining supplies and equipment needed in a national emergency certainly did nothing to increase the stockpile of PPEs and ventilators.
In short, the president sets the policy and the agencies carry out the tasks needed to fulfill the president’s policy. And that just didn’t happen and there is no one to blame but the president.
You on the left keep trying that. But most voters don't have severe TDS. Trying to blame a President for a virus that came out of China and affected over 180 countries won't fly in November.
There is a lot of blame, mostly with our bureaucracies and agencies. They are the ones who held up any and all progress. I provided the links. And don't say the President can direct them to do things they refuse to do. He can't, and even if he could, what do you suppose the Democrats would be saying about Trump if he acted against their recommendations?
Our entire country is mired in red tape. That's what needs to change, virus or no virus. The only mistake Trump actually made was not closing down at least 80% of our bureaucracies and agencies when he first took office that we never needed in the first place.
The fact is nobody was in charge and that's the heart of problem. Trump wanted to be in the limelight making all the major decisions and taking none of the responsibility. Trump's famous "not my responsibility" reply ain't going to work in November.
I think it's working not bad really. HIs favorable ratings (considering the circumstance) are not doing too bad, and some even have his approval ratings higher than DumBama at the same time of his presidency. I heard a statistic on the radio yesterday (that I didn't actually checkout) that our stock market actually recovered 60% of it's losses, and the country is not nearly totally opened up yet.
I never said "none" of the responsibility lies with Trump, but much of it doesn't. Because he puts people into positions of our agencies and bureaucracies doesn't mean they are all "yes" men and women. On the flip side, you people are saying this is all about Trump and nobody else responsible.
So while Cuomo and DeBlazio were selling off their ventilators like hot cakes, then they looked for Trump to magically come enough for their hospitals. Who was responsible for that? Trump came up with them, he came up with enough beds for a potential overload of Covid patients, he provided it all in a matter of days or a week or so. He's doing an excellent job.
November is a little less than 6 months away. A lot can change (good or bad) by then. So if you're going to put money on whether Trump serves a second term or not, make sure it's money you can afford to lose. After all, look at who your contender is.
Who said, I thought Trump would lose the election.. The odds are he will win the election, not because of his brilliant leadership, or his reduction in the size of government which he has actually increased nor anything else he promised but because Americans usually vote for the incumbent following the old adage, "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't."
At the very least, I'm glad you can come to the understanding of the actual responsible parties involved here. However we do not live in an autocracy, and were never founded on that. Our federal government is operated by giving a President only so much power. We also have a House, a Senate, bureaucracies and agencies, most of whom played a part in all this.
Who said you thought Trump would lose the election? You did! Here is your exact quote only a few posts from this one:
The primary problem in the US response is two fold. First there was no game plan for dealing with the pandemic and second there was no project manager. What that meant is the responsibilities within agencies and between the states and federal government had to be establish, along with coordination between all federal agencies and states, and other parties. Second, Trump formed a committee to deal with the epidemic; however, the committee was essentially just advisors to the president. There was no "czar" or project manager to coordinate between a half dozen federal agencies and 50 states. It was a project without a plan and without a manger. It was doomed to fail, which it did and Donald Trump is the primary reason it failed so badly.
You're correct in saying the president has limited powers. However, within the executive branch itself, the president has broad powers to manage the workings of the federal government. The president can issue rules, regulations and instructions, which have the binding force of law upon federal agencies, and within limits establish by congress he can move funds in the budget to finance a project as needed. The heads of ever agency involved in the response to pandemic were appointed by Trump and serve at his please. Trump is the boss and he bears full responsibility for the poor response of the federal government to the epidemic.
Trump never disbanded your so-called pandemic response team. It was reduced in an overhaul of the NSC. Why do we have a CDC and NIH if that is not their function? Where do Fauci and Birx normally work?
Right. If this so-called response team were in charge of coordinating efforts around the country, why did they allow NYC to sell off many of their ventilators? Why did they let the depleted medical stockpile remain under stock? Seems to me they didn't do their job.
So who gave this pandemic team more authority than the CDC, the FDA, FEMA, and even the President of the Untied States? If you can show me this authority, then I'll believe you. But this so-called pandemic team was nothing more than any other bureaucracy, who must work with all the other ones.
VP Pence did not lead anybody. He was assigned to orchestrate all our other agencies so they worked in unison, particularly in the exchange of information.
Okay, lets go with that. If they had no authority, how would they (if still intact) have made a difference? President Trump had to work with these same bureaucracies to get FDA approval of the private sector to help out with what our CDC failed. And they dragged ass doing so. They dragged ass on approving tests from South Korea, they dragged ass on permitting hydroxychlorquine to be used on Covid patients, they dragged ass in allowing new test kits to be acceptable without the results meeting their approval, they dragged ass on everything, just like any other bureaucracy does.
President Trump had to threaten 3-M into selling a majority of their masks to the US. Without Trump, they would have continued their high-volume N-95 sales overseas, especially to China. Those hospital ships being dispatched to places like CA, NY (who hate Trump and still do) were in construction en-route to their destinations to be prepared for a possible overflow. Those same amazing military people converted civic centers into temporary hospitals in a matter of days.
We do not reside in an Autocracy. We do not have one decider on all matters. President Trump is not a medical expert. President Trump is not an economics professor. President Trump is not a military expert. No President is. This is why Presidents have people in their cabinet and administration who are experts. President Trump did what any other President would have done, and that is to rely on those experts for enough input for him to make rational decisions.
As I said, the pandemic response team that Trump organized was strictly and advisor group. They had no authority. They advised the president and the president managed the response. IMHO, that was a terrible mistake, both from a political and managerial standpoint. He should have assigned someone to manage the project which means coordinating activities between a half dozen federal agencies and between the federal government, and the states.
If nobody in any of our health agencies knew this was possible, if nobody on Trump's medical staff knew this was a possibility, if nobody at the WHO knew this was a possibility, how do you figure Trump should have known?
The White House started taking smaller precautionary steps as early as January 31st, when the WHO first announced this "could be" a problem. We can't go slapping masks on, closing down the economy, stopping all international flight, sending our country into a frenzy with every single threat we find out about. Where would our country be before Covid if we did that with H1N1, H1N5, SARS, Ebola, West Niles virus?
The CDC announced today that 35% of people that had Covid-19 were asymptomatic. They don't feel anything, but of course were contagious. They were kissing family and friends, drinking at the bars, eating at the restaurants, squeezing fruits and vegetables at the store before making a final selection. Just carrying on a normal life.
As to the people (especially younger people) who were not asymptomatic, many of the symptoms are similar to a bad cold or even a mild flu, which most don't seek medical help for until it gets bad.
In other words, we have no idea how long Covid has been in this country and already spreading. The WHO is in bed with China and also does their bidding. China has been less than honest with us and the world right from the beginning, and still are from what I've been reading. Bottom line since all the above is proven to be true, there was nothing Trump nor any President could have done to prevent this.
The CDC was not able to delivery enough working test kits in February and early March. On Jan 10, China released the genome for the virus which had all the information needed to build test kits. The WHO, South Korea, and a dozen other countries began putting together tests kits, and arranging for manufacture in large quantities. All this of this occurred before China announced they had scientific data of human to human transmission.
Meanwhile in the US, the CDC was struggling to produce test kits. They had contamination problems in the labs which delayed the first kits. Then they failed to purchase sufficient reagents. Whoever was responsible for arranging for the manufacture of kits in large quantity dropped the ball. When the kits first were sent out in February, an equal number was sent to all states even though the virus was only in 5 states so only a few kits were delivered where they were needed. Next, in early March, states found out the CDC regulations stopped them from testing. All the swabs had to sent to Atlanta. Once that was resolved, state labs were sent specimens but states did not have the PPE equipment for the labs because they thought the federal goverment would be supplying it out the federal stockpile which was apparently depleted. So the states had to compete against each other buying up what PPEs they could find. Finally. the states got authorization from the CDC to use local labs to process. Then the FDA stopped them because that was against FDA regulations. Next, the labs were short on reagents needed for processing. Apparently the CDC did not order enough in early January before the rest of the world did. All this got resolved by late March but then states were running out of tests kits because not enough were ordered.
I think this was about the time Trump declared war on China, accusing them of being dishonest and withholding information. I have no doubt that China was not completely forthcoming because they never are. However, I have no doubt that America's failure to contain the epidemic had nothing to do with China withholding information. If that were the case, countries like South Korea and others would have experience the problems the US did but they didn't. The fact is the poor response to the epidemic during those first critical months was due to the disorganization and slow response of of the administration. The US had no plan and no management and no coordination. There is no way to know how many of the 1.1 million cases and 95,000 deaths could have been avoided if the administration had been prepared, but common sense tells us it would have been a lot.
You did what I have been doing all along, and that is pointing out which entitles were actually responsible, and it isn't the President.
South Korea didn't have to deal with these clowns in the CDC, the FDA, the NSA. When they needed to do something, they didn't have all the red tape we and the President hand to endure. They just did it.
If there is a lesson to be learned here, it's not that we have a less than competent President, it's that our agencies are bureaucracies need a major overhaul. Many of them need to be eliminated totally; perhaps not in this instance, but in general.
We have over 2.5 million Americans occupying these bureaucracies. WTF do we need all these people? Why do they have so much power--even more so than our Congress and President?
And it's not like we need these entities and millions of people because our Congress is so overworked. Most of the time these MF's are on vacation, in spite of making well into six figures a year plus great retirement benefits. Most of them retire multi-millionaires doing a part-time job.
Many years ago I used to teach guitar. One of my students worked at a bolt factory. His company had a government contract to make bolts for the space shuttle. Each bolt used in the shuttle cost over $200.00. So I asked him what was the difference between the bolts they made for the shuttle, and the bolts I buy at the hardware store for thirty cents? He told me there was no difference. The cost involved was all the government paperwork. Each bolt had to have QC paperwork that was over 100 pages long. If they didn't accept the paperwork, they couldn't just correct any errors. The government insisted an entirely new document for the bolt in question.
It's just like when the government "shuts down." Did anybody really care? Of course they always get paid anyway so a shutdown is actually a taxpayer paid vacation. But nobody would know the difference unless they read it in the paper.
