Zone1 Who Say That They are Jews and are Not

[Hafar1014]

It describes an important portion or aspect of Christianity. And let's hope that "Christians" who reject the teachings of the Bible aren't the ones who Christ will announce that "He doesn't know." Those folks may be worse off that the ones who never claimed to know Christ in the first place.

Im better off never knowing Jesus

 

[Meriweather]

There is no fall of man or original sin in Genesis. Its the Moral teaching of man and the trial for mans freedom. It was gods plan that they eat the fruit so they would acquire morals. That cant be a sin. Disobedience is the essence of free will. Free will must have morals. None of this is a sin.

Whether it is also called, Missing the mark/target, going wrong, breach in relationship, falling short in an obligation or understanding, the synonym 'sin' fits as well. How do you see the synonym, 'sin' as different from any other moral failure to hit the target?

 

[Lisa558]

View attachment 1219379
Another sniveling Jew hating message board rodent

We have no remorse for “our crimes”? We didn’t do anything!

 

[Meriweather]

A religion that uses threats of hell to force obedience is an immoral religion

As you seem to be someone who sees choice as instrumental in God's plan, why are you so adamant that people cannot choose hell/separating from God? As an example: You see someone in breach of their known covenant with God. Do you see the words, "That may separate you from God" as a threat?

 

[Lisa558]

Keep in mind that the vast majority of Christians do not follow the premise that all non-Christians are doomed.

But do you mean non-Christians are not doomed because they can still “save themselves” and believe in Jesus? That’s really not much better.

 

[Lisa558]

Let's start with misinterpretations of some scriptural verses do not change my beliefs.

Jesus shed his blood for the redemption of the entire world and the entire population. No one (the least of all me) is arguing he wasn't necessary. He was/is essential. Just as is the Kingdom of God, this redemption is open to all who embrace it. Jesus is the Word of God. Many of those you are attacking are ardent believers and followers of the Word of God. Do you believe the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit (One God) has the power to draw people to Him? Are you one who walks into a first grade class and condemns all those who do not know calculus? And then block the way for them to ever know calculus?

Christianity has put a great stumbling block in the way of the Jews, turning Jesus into someone (if they think of him at all) they either loathe or conclude he must have been insane. Jesus is part and parcel of a beautiful story. He is not a battering ram to bash over people's heads. We can at least work to tell his story properly. Even then, there is still a major stumbling block of a human also being divine. Then, shouldn't we fall back on the scripture that Jesus assured us he was coming for the lost, not for those who already know and serve God?

As for the question of do I own a Bible: Let's counter it with the question: Once you find a verse to your liking, do you go on to study verses/perspectives not to your liking? Or is one Bible verse all that is needed? Once you find a verse, do you fit into a later context of your choice, or do you research the context of the languages and cultures of that time? Ever hear that old adage that the Bible can be used by those who splash in the shallows and by those who dive into and research its depths? It is my conclusion (possibly wrong) that you are still splashing in the shallows. You may have reached the conclusion that I drowned in the depths a long time ago, and that your call--for you.

I don’t think that way of Jesus at all, on the rare occasion I think of him at all - which is when the “fire and brimstone” arrogant Christians such as we see on this thread come out to castigate Jews for not believing in him.

To me, Jesus existed. He was a traditional, observant Jew, bar-mitzahed at 13, and an admirer of Hillel. For the most part, he taught Jewish values - on occasion with a spin. The Golden Rule for example is from Hillel, although Jesus changed the wording somewhat. He probably was a bit of a rabble-rouser, just as we see today with radical Left Jews.

Did he deserve to be killed? Of course not. But thousands and thousands of people were killed unjustly too. That was the way of the times.

The tragedy of it is that that one murder has been used for millennia to demonize, delegitimize, persecute, expel, and murder millions and millions of innocent Jews - which, as you can see, continues to this day.

 

[Meriweather]

Genesis specifically states a single sin cant be blamed on humanity as whole

It is my understanding, 'Adam' is also the word for all of mankind; 'Eve' the mother of all the living. The author of Genesis seems, to tell a memorable story/history, seems to have reduced all of mankind into two characters. It follows, then, there was no single sin, but sin all of mankind has been committing all throughout history.

The theory I favor most is that Adam was the first tribe, known to have existed for about nine hundred years. Two other tribes split from the tribe of Adam--Cain and Abel. There was a great war, and the tribe of Abel was slaughtered, and the tribe of Cain dispersed. Later, the tribe of Seth also came from the tribe of Adam.

Again, that is only one of a number of theories.

 

[Meriweather]

But do you mean non-Christians are not doomed because they can still “save themselves” and believe in Jesus? That’s really not much better.

No, that is not what I mean. I mean God meets all of us where we are, and works from there. Scripture also notes that God's law is written on every human heart.

 

[Lisa558]

It's interesting that many use the verse, "No one came come to the Father except through me" as "No one goes to heaven..."

I use that verse because it is the one that has been flung in my face by disrepectful Christians, and always with an undertone of a dire warning.

Also, Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them."

Not sure what to make of that one, but it still implies we need to “come to Jesus.” What we need is to come to Gd.

Aramaic etymology points out that 'come' more closely means to follow after, often used in the context of discipleship. Jesus said no one could be his disciple unless they were willing to leave spouse, mother, father, family, riches, etc.

“Follow” is more acceptable. Abraham was also told to leave the house of his father (Terah, was it?) and venture to a new land.

Another puzzling passage from Exodus is how the community found God so overwhelming they asked Moses to simply tell them what God was saying.

It’s not that they found Gd overwhelming. It’s that Gd appeared to Moses specifically, and not the entire community.

Jesus also said the Kingdom of God was in the reach of everyone. It seems likely the Hebrew Bible may feel the same about anyone can walk in God's ways.

Definitely. That is why we have the Noahide Laws. Heaven is open to all, Jews and Gentiles alike.

Where am I going with all of this? Grin. I hardly know. What seems most likely given context, etc. is discipleship in this life, which has nothing to do with the afterlife. I can say I do my best to walk in the ways of God, to walk in the ways Jesus taught. However, like the people in Moses' time, it is more than likely I could not/cannot bear the full presence of God. As I chose family--husband, parents, children--nor was I one to leave all this behind and focus solely on Jesus, wherever he leads.

You’re doing quite well. Jesus taught much kindness, and to follow his direction such as you are is wonderful. I could say I follow Hillel. The “split” occurs because it goes beyond that: not merely follow him, but believe in him as a deity.

Therefore, if some (and I hope it is very few) Christians are telling you that you will not see a heavenly afterlife or will not see God, then the vast majority of us will be right there beside you. The vast majority walk in the Way (Hodos), but which is a far cry from God being our one and only sole focus and that we gave up everything else in order to maintain that full focus. That type of focus a person needs to be drawn to by God, and in Christianity, by Jesus. I feel, according to scripture, I walk in the Way. The rich young man in one of the Gospel stories was doing the same thing. But like me, he did not give up everything else to be in the continual presence of God (or Jesus).

Amen, my friend!

What say you from the Jewish perspective?

Done, and done.

 

[Lisa558]

As you seem to be someone who sees choice as instrumental in God's plan, why are you so adamant that people cannot choose hell/separating from God? As an example: You see someone in breach of their known covenant with God. Do you see the words, "That may separate you from God" as a threat?

When I see someone in breach of his covenant with Gd - like eating a sandwich on Passover or bacon any time - I keep my mouth shut. The person knows fully well that Gd commanded us to keep kosher. My reminding him of that serves no purpose but to anger or annoy him.

Same with these rude Christians who warn me that I need to believe in Jesus in order to get to Heaven. Do they honestly think Jews don’t ALREADY know that’s what Christians believe?

 

[Hafar1014]

Whether it is also called, Missing the mark/target, going wrong, breach in relationship, falling short in an obligation or understanding, the synonym 'sin' fits as well. How do you see the synonym, 'sin' as different from any other moral failure to hit the target?

Before Adam ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil he couldnt know what a sin was. When you cant know right from wrong you cant be wrong. It was also Gods will that he eat the fruit obeying Gods will cant be a sin. Genesis aslo states a single act cant be used to hold all of mankind responsible.

Using the term original which means universal is the distortion. Even if you accept Adam sinned humanity as whole cant be blamed. Thats clearly stated in Genesis

So the fall of man and original sin goes against the entire meaning of Genesis. Its the moral teaching of man and the trial for mans freedom. Free will plus morals and the choice to come to God was the trial Adam and Eve passed.
So then there is no reason for Jesus to exist as savior of humanity.

 

[Hafar1014]

As you seem to be someone who sees choice as instrumental in God's plan, why are you so adamant that people cannot choose hell/separating from God? As an example: You see someone in breach of their known covenant with God. Do you see the words, "That may separate you from God" as a threat?

Dont you think eternal suffering is cruel especially for those of us who already have our faith and have no use for yours. The first amendment applies to Heavan. You want to punish people fir their choices when it isnt your choice for them. You just dont have that power

 

[Meriweather]

Dont you think eternal suffering is cruel especially for those of us who already have our faith and have no use for yours. The first amendment applies to Heavan. You want to punish people fir their choices when it isnt your choice for them. You just dont have that power

Duh. (You are not describing me.)

 

[Lisa558]

Duh. (You are not describing me.)

I was going to jump in and say that,

Hafar1014: It would be better if you address your points to the nasty, arrogant Christians in this forum who have been denigrating me/us as “Christ deniers!” and “anti-Christ liars!” and otherwise spewing venom at us for not submitting to their belief about Jesus.

Merriweather has been nothing but respectful and has said that Jews have a way to Heaven WITHOUT Jesus.

 

[JoeB131]

That sounds like your excuse for not seeking God....find an allegory that absolves you from seeking God.

I did seek God.
I went to church asking for my mom's cancer to get better.
It didn't.
No God.

And the "vast majority of undocumented immigrants" are not being arrested. For example, about 400,000 thousand illegal immigrants have been arrested, which is about .02 percent (.0002) of those here illegally. In other words, nearly one hundred percent of "undocumented immigrants" have not been arrested.

That would be awesome if they were just going after the criminals. You know, instead of the moms, and the maids, and the gardeners, and the occassional Purple Heart Veteran.

So, you want to give up your free will and that of everyone else so that you are forced into the presence of God? According to you, I'm apparently in the minority camp who wants free will? What everyone else really wants to be frog-marched into God's presence/kingdom?

Well, how much free will do you actually have if you are using a book of bronze age superstition to guide your life?

 

[Quantrill]

I did seek God.
I went to church asking for my mom's cancer to get better.
It didn't.
No God.





That would be awesome if they were just going after the criminals. You know, instead of the moms, and the maids, and the gardeners, and the occassional Purple Heart Veteran.



Well, how much free will do you actually have if you are using a book of bronze age superstition to guide your life?

Gee, is that why you went to Church?

If they are illegal they are criminals.

We have a will and God honors that will. But our will isn't free. Only God has 'free will'.

Quantrill

 

[Hafar1014]

I was going to jump in and say that,

Hafar1014: It would be better if you address your points to the nasty, arrogant Christians in this forum who have been denigrating me/us as “Christ deniers!” and “anti-Christ liars!” and otherwise spewing venom at us for not submitting to their belief about Jesus.

Merriweather has been nothing but respectful and has said that Jews have a way to Heaven WITHOUT Jesus.

Its addressed to anyone no one in particular

 

[Quantrill]

Merriweather has been nothing but respectful and has said that Jews have a way to Heaven WITHOUT Jesus.

I certainly hope @Merriweather has not been saying that.

Quantrill

 

[Lisa558]

I certainly hope @Merriweather has not been saying that.

Quantrill

My understanding is that she has, which of course is correct - at least according to my religion. ALL people have a chance for Heaven.

I realize that many Christians are not as tolerant of others’ religions as Judaism is.

 

[Quantrill]

My understanding is that she has, which of course is correct - at least according to my religion. ALL people have a chance for Heaven.

I realize that many Christians are not as tolerant of others’ religions as Judaism is.

I would agree that 'all people have a chance for heaven'. And, this is important, the invitation is offered to all. Jesus Christ is offered to all. It is a legitimate invitation because Jesus Christ died for all. All means all. In other words, your sins and everyone else's sins in the whole world from Adam to till now, have been paid for in Jesus Christ. Whether one accepts Christ or not is immaterial to the fact that their sins have been paid for.

You are correct that many Christians are not as tolerant as other religions and also of other 'so called Christians'. If any 'Christian' believes there is a way to Heaven without Jesus Christ, they are in contradiction with our Bible. (John 3:17-18) "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

(John 14:6) "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

(Acts 4:12) "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.'

Let me ask you...do you find God 'tolerant' in your Old Testament Scripture?

Quantrill