Zone1 Who Say That They are Jews and are Not

[BreezeWood]

And yes, I know you’re antisemitic too - here you are, claiming that “we” haven’t been brought to justice. I had nothing to do with what happened 2,000 years ago ...

you are included in the judaism refrain ... your choice of barrabas.

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

the 4th century christian bible as well - the false commandments et al the reason for judaisms repudiation is all included in their christian bible.

 

[Hafar1014]

no, what you describe is new and comes from the jews themselves as attested throughout this thread - they have no remorse for their crimes and claim the heaves as their own and provider. lots of luck in your beliefs you are not alone.

Another sniveling Jew hating message board rodent

 

[Hafar1014]

what jesus said to the jews during their trial ... hereditary idolatry is the basis for abraham, the reason jews worship him.

Abraham was the idol destroyer

 

[Meriweather]

Christians use, as “proof,” that Jesus said you must believe in him to get to heaven. I’ve had this thrown in my face by Christians numerous times: They say, “well, you know that Jesus said the only way to the Father is through the son.” As if that proves anything.

It's interesting that many use the verse, "No one came come to the Father except through me" as "No one goes to heaven..."

Also, Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them."

Aramaic etymology points out that 'come' more closely means to follow after, often used in the context of discipleship. Jesus said no one could be his disciple unless they were willing to leave spouse, mother, father, family, riches, etc.

Another puzzling passage from Exodus is how the community found God so overwhelming they asked Moses to simply tell them what God was saying.

Jesus also said the Kingdom of God was in the reach of everyone. It seems likely the Hebrew Bible may feel the same about anyone can walk in God's ways.

Where am I going with all of this? Grin. I hardly know. What seems most likely given context, etc. is discipleship in this life, which has nothing to do with the afterlife. I can say I do my best to walk in the ways of God, to walk in the ways Jesus taught. However, like the people in Moses' time, it is more than likely I could not/cannot bear the full presence of God. As I chose family--husband, parents, children--nor was I one to leave all this behind and focus solely on Jesus, wherever he leads.

Therefore, if some (and I hope it is very few) Christians are telling you that you will not see a heavenly afterlife or will not see God, then the vast majority of us will be right there beside you. The vast majority walk in the Way (Hodos), but which is a far cry from God being our one and only sole focus and that we gave up everything else in order to maintain that full focus. That type of focus a person needs to be drawn to by God, and in Christianity, by Jesus. I feel, according to scripture, I walk in the Way. The rich young man in one of the Gospel stories was doing the same thing. But like me, he did not give up everything else to be in the continual presence of God (or Jesus).

What say you from the Jewish perspective?

 

[SaxonJackson]

prove jesus ever claimed either of your 4th century lies, they must be followed or who does not follow them are their enemy in anything left by them in written hand or etching - your claim is no different than the judaism fallacies made for their own benefit.

as well that jesus ever claimed to be a heavenly messiah. found anywhere than the 4th century christian bible without a shred of evidence.

It's all based on the written Word of God as found in the Bible and a person's faith that what the read is true. God gave everyone free will. He forces nobody to believe in Him.

I could ask you to "prove" lots of things you believe but it would be a fruitless endeavor.

 

[Hafar1014]

It's interesting that many use the verse, "No one came come to the Father except through me" as "No one goes to heaven..."

Also, Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them."

Aramaic etymology points out that 'come' more closely means to follow after, often used in the context of discipleship. Jesus said no one could be his disciple unless they were willing to leave spouse, mother, father, family, riches, etc.

Another puzzling passage from Exodus is how the community found God so overwhelming they asked Moses to simply tell them what God was saying.

Jesus also said the Kingdom of God was in the reach of everyone. It seems likely the Hebrew Bible may feel the same about anyone can walk in God's ways.

Where am I going with all of this? Grin. I hardly know. What seems most likely given context, etc. is discipleship in this life, which has nothing to do with the afterlife. I can say I do my best to walk in the ways of God, to walk in the ways Jesus taught. However, like the people in Moses' time, it is more than likely I could not/cannot bear the full presence of God. As I chose family--husband, parents, children--nor was I one to leave all this behind and focus solely on Jesus, wherever he leads.

Therefore, if some (and I hope it is very few) Christians are telling you that you will not see a heavenly afterlife or will not see God, then the vast majority of us will be right there beside you. The vast majority walk in the Way (Hodos), but which is a far cry from God being our one and only sole focus and that we gave up everything else in order to maintain that full focus. That type of focus a person needs to be drawn to by God, and in Christianity, by Jesus. I feel, according to scripture, I walk in the Way. The rich young man in one of the Gospel stories was doing the same thing. But like me, he did not give up everything else to be in the continual presence of God (or Jesus).

What say you from the Jewish perspective?

When a religion uses a threat to compel obedience(believe in Jesus or go to hell) then thats not a civilized or even morally correct religion. Thats tyranny. What kind of God expresses this. A false god invented by men who want to control people.
The Jews were way ahead in believing God empowers us to make our own choices. Thats called freedom. Its a moral better way

 

[Meriweather]

Would this be the God who sends She-Bears to maul children, or the God who demands a man butcher his daughter because he made a foolish oath?

That sounds like your excuse for not seeking God....find an allegory that absolves you from seeking God.

Except the vast majority of undocumented immigrants haven't done anything like that.

And the "vast majority of undocumented immigrants" are not being arrested. For example, about 400,000 thousand illegal immigrants have been arrested, which is about .02 percent (.0002) of those here illegally. In other words, nearly one hundred percent of "undocumented immigrants" have not been arrested.

That kind of makes God sound awful. "I'm going to send you to hell for making the wrong choices, even though the circumstances were dire."

So, you want to give up your free will and that of everyone else so that you are forced into the presence of God? According to you, I'm apparently in the minority camp who wants free will? What everyone else really wants to be frog-marched into God's presence/kingdom?

 

[Meriweather]

When a religion uses a threat to compel obedience(believe in Jesus or go to hell) then thats not a civilized or even morally correct religion. Thats tyranny. What kind of God expresses this. A false god invented by men who want to control people.
The Jews were way ahead in believing God empowers us to make our own choices. Thats called freedom. Its a moral better way

Keep in mind that the vast majority of Christians do not follow the premise that all non-Christians are doomed.

 

[SaxonJackson]

Shrug. Research and study supports true doctrine. I believe (as the Gospels teach) the Kingdom of God is within the reach of everyone living. Our choices here give us a glimpse of who is entering the Kingdom. As in Sirach (and a few other places), what are we choosing, for what we choose will be given to us. Are we choosing fire or water? Are we choosing good or evil? Most of all, are we choosing love of others or disdain? When we die, we see our own heart, see what we have chosen and God's judgment will be both just and merciful.

Seriously, without Christ, I doubt I would have ever chosen to enter the door to the Kingdom. It is Christ who has dropped me into the lap of the Father. I depend on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And I am human, often lost, always fallible. That is why I do so much research, so much study. It is why I search for context, history, cultural anthropology, and etymology. I do not go with what I think the original authors said. I go with years of research.

It is also why I object to your portrayal of Christ. You have several (if not all) Jews here seeing Jesus as some sort of monster whose sole purpose is to herd them into a tortured afterlife. That is not God's plan for anyone--and much less for those of the Jewish faith. You know that--or should know it.

So you believe a person can be saved with or without the shed blood of Jesus Christ? You don't believe that belief and faith in Jesus Christ is at all necessary? If you're correct, then there was zero reason for the virgin birth; Christ's sacrifice and His death and resurrection; the ascension into Heaven; the Gospel message; and I'm guessing that you don't believe hell exists. Why should it if everyone will "work" their way into salvation?

Do you even own a Bible? And, if so, have you ever read it? And if so, do you believe what you read?

The Bible is crystal clear on the subject of salvation. It is a free gift to "them who believe."

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Christ, not I, promises to "condemn" them who reject Him. Take it up with Christ.

 

[Hafar1014]

Keep in mind that the vast majority of Christians do not follow the premise that all non-Christians are doomed.

If you believe in hell then you do by definition because thats the only reason it exists in their minds

 

[Meriweather]

So you believe a person can be saved with or without the shed blood of Jesus Christ? You don't believe that belief and faith in Jesus Christ is at all necessary? If you're correct, then there was zero reason for the virgin birth; Christ's sacrifice and His death and resurrection; the ascension into Heaven; the Gospel message; and I'm guessing that you don't believe hell exists. Why should it if everyone will "work" their way into salvation?

Do you even own a Bible? And, if so, have you ever read it? And if so, do you believe what you read?

The Bible is crystal clear on the subject of salvation. It is a free gift to "them who believe."

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Christ, not I, promises to "condemn" them who reject Him. Take it up with Christ.

Let's start with misinterpretations of some scriptural verses do not change my beliefs.

Jesus shed his blood for the redemption of the entire world and the entire population. No one (the least of all me) is arguing he wasn't necessary. He was/is essential. Just as is the Kingdom of God, this redemption is open to all who embrace it. Jesus is the Word of God. Many of those you are attacking are ardent believers and followers of the Word of God. Do you believe the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit (One God) has the power to draw people to Him? Are you one who walks into a first grade class and condemns all those who do not know calculus? And then block the way for them to ever know calculus?

Christianity has put a great stumbling block in the way of the Jews, turning Jesus into someone (if they think of him at all) they either loathe or conclude he must have been insane. Jesus is part and parcel of a beautiful story. He is not a battering ram to bash over people's heads. We can at least work to tell his story properly. Even then, there is still a major stumbling block of a human also being divine. Then, shouldn't we fall back on the scripture that Jesus assured us he was coming for the lost, not for those who already know and serve God?

As for the question of do I own a Bible: Let's counter it with the question: Once you find a verse to your liking, do you go on to study verses/perspectives not to your liking? Or is one Bible verse all that is needed? Once you find a verse, do you fit into a later context of your choice, or do you research the context of the languages and cultures of that time? Ever hear that old adage that the Bible can be used by those who splash in the shallows and by those who dive into and research its depths? It is my conclusion (possibly wrong) that you are still splashing in the shallows. You may have reached the conclusion that I drowned in the depths a long time ago, and that your call--for you.

 

[Hafar1014]

Let's start with misinterpretations of some scriptural verses do not change my beliefs.

Jesus shed his blood for the redemption of the entire world and the entire population. No one (the least of all me) is arguing he wasn't necessary. He was/is essential. Just as is the Kingdom of God, this redemption is open to all who embrace it. Jesus is the Word of God. Many of those you are attacking are ardent believers and followers of the Word of God. Do you believe the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit (One God) has the power to draw people to Him? Are you one who walks into a first grade class and condemns all those who do not know calculus? And then block the way for them to ever know calculus?

Christianity has put a great stumbling block in the way of the Jews, turning Jesus into someone (if they think of him at all) they either loathe or conclude he must have been insane. Jesus is part and parcel of a beautiful story. He is not a battering ram to bash over people's heads. We can at least work to tell his story properly. Even then, there is still a major stumbling block of a human also being divine. Then, shouldn't we fall back on the scripture that Jesus assured us he was coming for the lost, not for those who already know and serve God?

As for the question of do I own a Bible: Let's counter it with the question: Once you find a verse to your liking, do you go on to study verses/perspectives not to your liking? Or is one Bible verse all that is needed? Once you find a verse, do you fit into a later context of your choice, or do you research the context of the languages and cultures of that time? Ever hear that old adage that the Bible can be used by those who splash in the shallows and by those who dive into and research its depths? It is my conclusion (possibly wrong) that you are still splashing in the shallows. You may have reached the conclusion that I drowned in the depths a long time ago, and that your call--for you.

To Jews Jesus is an idol and since there is no original sin in Genesis and it specifically denies blaming humanity for a single sin there is no reason for Jesus to exist

 

[Meriweather]

If you believe in hell then you do by definition because thats the only reason it exists in their minds

No, it's not. Catholic belief is that God sends no one out of his presence--and leaving His presence is an individual choice, in a chain of individual choices made throughout a lifetime.

 

[SaxonJackson]

Let's start with misinterpretations of some scriptural verses do not change my beliefs.

Jesus shed his blood for the redemption of the entire world and the entire population. No one (the least of all me) is arguing he wasn't necessary. He was/is essential. Just as is the Kingdom of God, this redemption is open to all who embrace it. Jesus is the Word of God. Many of those you are attacking are ardent believers and followers of the Word of God. Do you believe the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit (One God) has the power to draw people to Him? Are you one who walks into a first grade class and condemns all those who do not know calculus? And then block the way for them to ever know calculus?

Christianity has put a great stumbling block in the way of the Jews, turning Jesus into someone (if they think of him at all) they either loathe or conclude he must have been insane. Jesus is part and parcel of a beautiful story. He is not a battering ram to bash over people's heads. We can at least work to tell his story properly. Even then, there is still a major stumbling block of a human also being divine. Then, shouldn't we fall back on the scripture that Jesus assured us he was coming for the lost, not for those who already know and serve God?

As for the question of do I own a Bible: Let's counter it with the question: Once you find a verse to your liking, do you go on to study verses/perspectives not to your liking? Or is one Bible verse all that is needed? Once you find a verse, do you fit into a later context of your choice, or do you research the context of the languages and cultures of that time? Ever hear that old adage that the Bible can be used by those who splash in the shallows and by those who dive into and research its depths? It is my conclusion (possibly wrong) that you are still splashing in the shallows. You may have reached the conclusion that I drowned in the depths a long time ago, and that your call--for you.

It would be wonderful if everyone on earth were willing to learn about Jesus Christ and ended up accepting Him as their Lord and Savior. But the Bible literally tells us that it won't happen:

Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

 

[Meriweather]

To Jews Jesus is an idol and since there is no original sin in Genesis and it specifically denies blaming humanity for a single sin there is no reason for Jesus to exist

Yes, I understand that to Jews, Jesus is an idol.

I know you don't care for the title "original sin" but it is only a short-cut terminology that encompasses humanity's choice to know both good and evil--and to choose between obedience and disobedience, good and evil.

I cannot recall who, but someone once explained to his daughter that God made nature for its beauty, animals for their innocence, and humanity to have the choice of accepting or rejecting Him.

 

[Meriweather]

It would be wonderful if everyone on earth were willing to learn about Jesus Christ and ended up accepting Him as their Lord and Savior. But the Bible literally tells us that it won't happen:

Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Describes Christianity perfectly, does it not? As does the single verse where Jesus tells some who claimed to have followed him: "I do not know you."

 

[Hafar1014]

Yes, I understand that to Jews, Jesus is an idol.

I know you don't care for the title "original sin" but it is only a short-cut terminology that encompasses humanity's choice to know both good and evil--and to choose between obedience and disobedience, good and evil.

I cannot recall who, but someone once explained to his daughter that God made nature for its beauty, animals for their innocence, and humanity to have the choice of accepting or rejecting Him.

There is no fall of man or original sin in Genesis. Its the Moral teaching of man and the trial for mans freedom. It was gods plan that they eat the fruit so they would acquire morals. That cant be a sin. Disobedience is the essence of free will. Free will must have morals. None of this is a sin.

 

[Hafar1014]

Describes Christianity perfectly, does it not? As does the single verse where Jesus tells some who claimed to have followed him: "I do not know you."

A religion that uses threats of hell to force obedience is an immoral religion

 

[SaxonJackson]

Describes Christianity perfectly, does it not? As does the single verse where Jesus tells some who claimed to have followed him: "I do not know you."

It describes an important portion or aspect of Christianity. And let's hope that "Christians" who reject the teachings of the Bible aren't the ones who Christ will announce that "He doesn't know." Those folks may be worse off that the ones who never claimed to know Christ in the first place.

 

[Hafar1014]

Yes, I understand that to Jews, Jesus is an idol.

I know you don't care for the title "original sin" but it is only a short-cut terminology that encompasses humanity's choice to know both good and evil--and to choose between obedience and disobedience, good and evil.

I cannot recall who, but someone once explained to his daughter that God made nature for its beauty, animals for their innocence, and humanity to have the choice of accepting or rejecting Him.

Genesis specifically states a single sin cant be blamed on humanity as whole