Who is the most underrated NBA player in history? My 2 submissions.

[Mr. Friscus]

Let me give you an example. Did you see what Butler did in Miami last year? How about what Luka does on a nightly basis? Or Brunson? Lebron doesn't have that "i'm going to take over this team and will it to win". Where he leaves everyone shaking their heads.

Dude, you have no Idea what you're talking about.

It's as if you didn't watch Lebron at all and are just shitting on him because you like the taste of MJ's dick.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

You will see this year. I suspect Lebron is going to try harder than he ever has before because he REALLY wants to win one with his son. So you are going to see extra effort from Lebron.

And if you do, then that proves he's not been trying his hardest to win every year. Like Jordan would have if he played for 20 years. Jordan didn't fumble his way into titles and have to move around the league and play pussy teams like Dallas Dirk Nowitzki. Lebron should be embarrassed. He had Dwayne Wade for God sakes. Isn't that the year he cramped up?

Let's see if I'm right. Lebron is going to play harder this coming season. For Bronny!

Lebron won 4 titles with 3 teams. Jordan one 6 with 1 team.

Lebron means more to a team than Jordan ever did.

Proof: When Jordan retired, the Bulls in 1994-95 won 57 games without him, with all the other pieces in place. Jordan is likely a top 3 all-time player, but wasn't necessary for success of his team like a Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, or Lebron James when they arrived to their teams.

My challenge: Explain that. Explain why the Bulls were still elite when Jordan retired, and why the Cavs dropped 40 games when lebron left.

 

[sealybobo]

Lebron won 4 titles with 3 teams. Jordan one 6 with 1 team.

Lebron means more to a team than Jordan ever did.

Proof: When Jordan retired, the Bulls in 1994-95 won 57 games without him, with all the other pieces in place. Jordan is likely a top 3 all-time player, but wasn't necessary for success of his team like a Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, or Lebron James when they arrived to their teams.

My challenge: Explain that. Explain why the Bulls were still elite when Jordan retired, and why the Cavs dropped 40 games when lebron left.

Let’s ask Scotty p

Scottie Pippen: There is no game where I would pick LeBron over Michael Jordan | The Jump​

No game. Not golf, ping pong, baseball. Jordan was super competitive and would have owned Lebron too

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Let’s ask Scotty p

Scottie Pippen: There is no game where I would pick LeBron over Michael Jordan | The Jump​

No game. Not golf, ping pong, baseball. Jordan was super competitive and would have owned Lebron too

You didn’t explain it. Let’s try again

My challenge: Explain that. Explain why the Bulls were still elite when Jordan retired, and why the Cavs dropped 40 games when lebron left.

 

[sealybobo]

You didn’t explain it. Let’s try again

My challenge: Explain that. Explain why the Bulls were still elite when Jordan retired, and why the Cavs dropped 40 games when lebron left.

They never won without him. And idk did Cleveland break up? To be honest, that team over achieved.

Look at Milwaukee. They won and the next year got knocked out in the first round. With Giannis.

In fewer years Jordan won more.

Even if Lebron had 7 rings I’d still bet jordan would eat his lunch.

In any game. Checkers? Marbles? Push-ups?

 

[sealybobo]

Lebron won 4 titles with 3 teams. Jordan one 6 with 1 team.

Lebron means more to a team than Jordan ever did.

Proof: When Jordan retired, the Bulls in 1994-95 won 57 games without him, with all the other pieces in place. Jordan is likely a top 3 all-time player, but wasn't necessary for success of his team like a Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, or Lebron James when they arrived to their teams.

My challenge: Explain that. Explain why the Bulls were still elite when Jordan retired, and why the Cavs dropped 40 games when lebron left.

Lebrons run is amazing despite all the failures. He should have won more. Michael would have won more. Let’s look back at the run

2011 lost to the Mavs

Figured it out and won back to back. With that super team. The west was weak. The spurs weren’t good those two years.

Loses two

Gets lucky and wins one with Cleveland. Damn you Draymond Green! Lol


One in the bubble. Meh.

Lebron would be the goat to have never won one if he played in Jordan’s era

 

[Mr. Friscus]

They never won without him.

Elite team, didn’t need him to be so.. that points to how valuable a player is to a teams success. Jordan wasn’t as valuable to the bulls as Bird to the Celtics, Duncan to the Spurs, or Lebron to the Cavs

And idk did Cleveland break up?

Then why are you trying to talk about it? Here’s a thought, how about having a little humility and just STFU about things you don’t know about?

Or better yet…Why don’t you just continue to do what you fall back on, and Tell us another mythical story of what MJ would do in some theoretical situation and how he would swing in and save your day.

 

[sealybobo]

Elite team, didn’t need him to be so.

Then why are you trying to talk about it?

Why don’t you just continue to do what you fall back on, and Tell us another mythical story of what MJ would do in some theoretical situation and how he would swing in and save your day.

Pippin and most nba players and coaches agree. Fine. Don’t see it.

 

[sealybobo]

Lebron won 4 titles with 3 teams. Jordan one 6 with 1 team.

Lebron means more to a team than Jordan ever did.

Proof: When Jordan retired, the Bulls in 1994-95 won 57 games without him, with all the other pieces in place. Jordan is likely a top 3 all-time player, but wasn't necessary for success of his team like a Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, or Lebron James when they arrived to their teams.

My challenge: Explain that. Explain why the Bulls were still elite when Jordan retired, and why the Cavs dropped 40 games when lebron left.

I was watching that movie about Nike. They said it best in that movie. Michael Jordan is considered the greatest competitor of all the major sport. Football players, hockey players, baseball players. Think of all the greats in every sports. Got it? Now, who's the best? Michael Jordan is the best.

Yes, Michael Jordan is widely considered to be one of the most competitive athletes in sports history. His intense focus, work ethic, and relentless pursuit of excellence are legendary. He's known for pushing himself to the limits and using perceived slights to fuel his performances.
He would have destroyed Lebron.
Jordan was known for his tireless dedication to training and honing his skills.
He had a fierce will to win and an intense desire to be the best, pushing himself to outwork and outplay everyone around him.

• He thrived in high-pressure situations and could perform at a high level under immense pressure, a hallmark of a competitive athlete.
  
  
• Jordan's ability to adapt his game, overcome adversity, and persevere through challenges further solidified his reputation as a highly competitive athlete.
• 
  
• Most important, 33.45 points per game in the playoffs. The only thing that matters is the playoffs. Lebron 28.41. Many games are lost by 5 points or less.
  
  
  

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Jordan is a competitor on the level of a John McGraw and Leo Durocher.

No manager or coach or player approaches their level.

 

[CrazyTrader55]

This guy was underrated.
Not a hall of famer, not even an all-star, but a darn good player.

 

[sealybobo]

Jordan is a competitor on the level of a John McGraw and Leo Durocher.

No manager or coach or player approaches their level.

Kids don't get it. They see Lebron has been in the league for over 20 years and he seems just as talented today as he did back when he first got started. And there is no question he's A2. Jordan is just A1. Kids who didn't live through it just can't understand how he owned the league. Even when he was a rookie getting picked on by the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons. He was the man. And to win 3 in a row then walk, then come back and win 3 in a row again. Come on. No fucking way.
I've seen Lebron fail and give up too many times to say he'd beat Jordan. No way he would beat Jordan. I don't care if Lebron is the better physical specimen. Doesn't matter. Mentally, Jordan would have been playing chess while Lebron was HOPING his teammates would step up. Jordan demanded it. He inspired.

This reminds me of my dad saying anyone could coach a great team to a championship. He's not giving the coach nearly the credit they deserve. He says "Alabama is always good". Yea? When is the last time they won it all? Sabin?

Kobe would have owned Lebron too. So actually Lebron is A3.

 

[CrazyTrader55]

Kids don't get it. They see Lebron has been in the league for over 20 years and he seems just as talented today as he did back when he first got started. And there is no question he's A2. Jordan is just A1. Kids who didn't live through it just can't understand how he owned the league. Even when he was a rookie getting picked on by the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons. He was the man. And to win 3 in a row then walk, then come back and win 3 in a row again. Come on. No fucking way.
I've seen Lebron fail and give up too many times to say he'd beat Jordan. No way he would beat Jordan. I don't care if Lebron is the better physical specimen. Doesn't matter. Mentally, Jordan would have been playing chess while Lebron was HOPING his teammates would step up. Jordan demanded it. He inspired.

This reminds me of my dad saying anyone could coach a great team to a championship. He's not giving the coach nearly the credit they deserve. He says "Alabama is always good". Yea? When is the last time they won it all? Sabin?

Kobe would have owned Lebron too. So actually Lebron is A3.

Top 3 of all time are Jordan, Wilt, and Lebron.

 

[sealybobo]

Top 3 of all time are Jordan, Wilt, and Lebron.

I can dig that. But only because there has never been anyone else like Michael Jordan. Magic Johnson maybe? 5 rings to Lebron's 4. Could pay all 5 positions. Kobe was about as competitive as Jordan and won 2 without Shaq. That's got to count for something.

Kobe has 5 and Lebron has 4. I'd say that's where it should stay. Lebron is so talented and been doing it so long 4 seems about right. For him.

Lebron won in 12, 13, 16 and 2020. And that 2020 championship hardly counts

Toronto won in 2019 and the Bucks won in 2021. Not really candidates for the best NBA teams of all time.

If I could pick 3 to be on my team I might pick Tim Duncan over Lebron. He has 5 rings too

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I was watching that movie about Nike. They said it best in that movie. Michael Jordan is considered the greatest competitor of all the major sport. Football players, hockey players, baseball players. Think of all the greats in every sports. Got it? Now, who's the best? Michael Jordan is the best.

Yes, Michael Jordan is widely considered to be one of the most competitive athletes in sports history. His intense focus, work ethic, and relentless pursuit of excellence are legendary. He's known for pushing himself to the limits and using perceived slights to fuel his performances.
He would have destroyed Lebron.
Jordan was known for his tireless dedication to training and honing his skills.
He had a fierce will to win and an intense desire to be the best, pushing himself to outwork and outplay everyone around him.

• He thrived in high-pressure situations and could perform at a high level under immense pressure, a hallmark of a competitive athlete.
  
  
• Jordan's ability to adapt his game, overcome adversity, and persevere through challenges further solidified his reputation as a highly competitive athlete.
• 
  
• Most important, 33.45 points per game in the playoffs. The only thing that matters is the playoffs. Lebron 28.41. Many games are lost by 5 points or less.
  
  

Yeah nobody cares about your emotional subjective opinions about MJ. You clearly hold more than any objective framework when discussing the guy. You can be as sentimental as you want, it’s not a debate point..

 

[sealybobo]

Yeah nobody cares about your emotional subjective opinions about MJ. You clearly hold more than any objective framework when discussing the guy. You can be as sentimental as you want, it’s not a debate point..

1. Most NBA players say Jordan is the GOAT
2. Jordan is considered the GOAT of all athletes, not just NBA. This is why I came back to this. Lebron is ranked 10th. This is my evidence.

Of course it's my opinion but I think it's obvious if Lebron and Jordan played in a NBA finals, most people would bet on Jordan.

If you put Lebron with Wade and Bosch, the best team he played on, any of Jordan's 6 championship teams would have beat them.

Or are you suggesting that if Lebron was in the league Jordan would have only won 5 rings? GTFO

 

[Fiero425]

1. Most NBA players say Jordan is the GOAT
2. Jordan is considered the GOAT of all athletes, not just NBA. This is why I came back to this. Lebron is ranked 10th. This is my evidence.

View attachment 1104233
Of course it's my opinion but I think it's obvious if Lebron and Jordan played in a NBA finals, most people would bet on Jordan.

If you put Lebron with Wade and Bosch, the best team he played on, any of Jordan's 6 championship teams would have beat them.

Or are you suggesting that if Lebron was in the league Jordan would have only won 5 rings? GTFO

LeBron will never get anywhere near the comp. rep. of these other "greats!" By the time he got to the NBA, the East had fallen on hard times! The "super teams" of The Bulls, Celtics, Knicks, 76'rs, & Pistons had aged out! The West was "feasting" on the East & continue to this day as they spend more $$ & make smarter decisions! I was visiting Chgo. during 2002 season "After Jordan;" where they were struggling, languishing under .500! That was "no shame" around then as the East was lame AF! After a month of play in Dec., only 2 teams were above .500 while the West just got fat when they played inter-conference games! LeBron was able to succeed even w/o a "Robin," getting to multiple Conf. Finals w/ 2 teams! The opposition just wasn't there IMO!

 

[sealybobo]

LeBron will never get anywhere near the comp. rep. of these other "greats!" By the time he got to the NBA, the East had fallen on hard times! The "super teams" of The Bulls, Celtics, Knicks, 76'rs, & Pistons had aged out! The West was "feasting" on the East & continue to this day as they spend more $$ & make smarter decisions! I was visiting Chgo. during 2002 season "After Jordan;" where they were struggling, languishing under .500! That was "no shame" around then as the East was lame AF! After a month of play in Dec., only 2 teams were above .500 while the West just got fat when they played inter-conference games! LeBron was able to succeed even w/o a "Robin," getting to multiple Conf. Finals w/ 2 teams! The opposition just wasn't there IMO!

Great point. Lebron got to the finals EASY. Name the tough teams they had to get past to get to the finals. Then they got smoked every time. Very good point. Lebron was great but Jordan was greater. He won the whole thing east and west 6 times.

Boston won last year. The East doesn't always lose. But I know what you are saying. The teams (plural) are always better out west. Occasionally a great team like Detroit, the Heat, Bulls or Boston win but usually it's the West.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

1. Most NBA players say Jordan is the GOAT
2. Jordan is considered the GOAT of all athletes, not just NBA. This is why I came back to this. Lebron is ranked 10th. This is my evidence.

Here's what an actual argument looks like, not just saying "He gives me the tingles"

Here's my contention as to why Lebron would be above MJ as the GOAT (even though I'm fine with not comparing generations)

1. LEBRON AS ROOKIE WAS MORE OF A WINNER THAN MJ
Lebron accounted for more games won his rookie year compared to the previous year than Jordan did for the Bulls:

• 83-84 Bulls (No Jordan) were 27-55. Jordan brought them up to 38-44 (+11 games)
• 02-03 Cavs (No Lebron) were 17-65, Lebron brought them up to 35-47 (+18 games)

2. LEBRON LED HIS TEAMS TO WINNING RECORDS EARLIER THAN MJ
Jordan didn't lead his team to a winning record until his 4th year. Meanwhile, a straight-out-of-high school Lebron had the Cavs at 42-40 in his second year. And neither player had all-stars around them.

3. MJ LED HIS TEAM TO LOSING RECORDS AND WAS DOMINATED OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS

• While Jordan's Bulls made the playoffs in his first 3 seasons, they made it with records of 38-44, 30-52 (Let me say that again, a 30-52 playoff team), and 40-42, and they were dominated out of the playoffs by Milwaukee 3-1 and two sweeps 3-0 by Boston.
• Jordan scored high points but averaged very high shots, low FG %, and had unconvincing and even horrible games with the season on the line, such as in 1986-87 Down 0-2 to Boston: Shoots 9-30, Scores 30points. Averaged 28 shots per game for the series to average 35ppg, horribly inefficient with a dismal 41% shooting.

4. LEBRON LED EARLY TEAMS TO DEEP PLAYOFF RUNS AND THE FINALS

• Lebron made the playoffs his 3rd year with a 50-32 record (Jordans 3rd year 40-42, and again, made the playoffs with horrible records)
• Lebron's 1st Playoff run in his 3rd year, he closes out Washington in the first round at the buzzer with 35-7-7 shooting 15-25 (60 percent), losing in the 2nd round to Detroit in 7 games.
• Lebron's 2nd Playoff run in his 4th year, he takes a team of average players to another 50-32 record through the Pistons and all the way to the NBA Finals.
• Jordan in his 4th year was busying getting knocked out in the 2nd round 4-1 by Detroit.
• Early Lebron was miles ahead of early Michael, and that matters.

5. JORDAN WAS DOMINATED BY OTHER CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS, LEBRON BEAT OTHER DYNASTIES

• Jordan didn't win until teams like the Celtics, Lakers, and Pistons aged out.
• Lebron's Heat beat the 5-time champion Spurs and his Cavs beat the 4-time champion Warriors.
• Jordan's Bulls faced historically weak NBA Finals opponents, while Lebron had all-time teams he had to face and beat.

6. JORDAN NEEDED LEGENDS TO WIN
- Jordan didn't win anything until Scottie Pippen, GOAT coach Phil Jackson, and Horace Grant were around in 1990-91. Before that he was a volume scorer who couldn't take average players deep into the playoffs, while Lebron did. However, both Jordan and MJ needed other all-time factors before they could start winning championships.

7. JORDAN PLAYED THE WEAKEST POSITION IN THE LEAGUE, LEBRON PLAYED THE BEST

• Jordan didn't face league-best competition at his position, as most other superstars played either PG, SF, PF, or Center. Listing off 80's/90's SG's offers a few all-time greats but not many. Drexler, Reggie Miller... that's about it.
• Meanwhile, in the 2000's/2010's, Lebron faced the likes of KD, Carmelo, T-Mac, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Grant Hill, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis, Paul George...

8. JORDAN DIDN'T MEAN AS MUCH TO THE BULLS SUCCESS AS LEBRON DID TO HIS TEAMS
- After Jordan retired the first time, the Bulls went from 57-25 to 55-27. That proves that the Bulls were an elite team without Jordan. Let's look at how Lebron effected teams:

• - Lebron Cavs 2010: 61-21. Next season 19-63 (-42)
• - D-wade Heat 2010: 47-35. Lebron Heat 2011: 58-24 (+11)
• - Lebron Heat 2013: 54-28. Next Season without: 37-45 (-17)
• - Kyrie Cavs 2013: 33-49. Lebron Cavs 2014: 53-29 (+20)
• - Lebron Cavs 2018: 50-32. Next season without: 19-63 (-31)

It's only until his First year in LA in his 16th season that he doesn't account for some major difference, although by the 2nd year he had the Lakers at 52-19 in the COVID year. While I'm not going to be dishonest and not mention that some of the Jumps for Lebron involved Chris Bosh in Miami, Kevin Love in Cleveland, etc... MJ also enjoyed major additions like Dennis Rodman/Toni Kukoc in their 2nd 3-peat. The data shows Lebron meant way more to his team's success than MJ did overall.

9. LEBRON DEALT WITH THINGS MJ NEVER HAD TO
Lebron has 4 championships, but I say likely has at least 6 if:

• Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love aren't injured and out of the Finals in 2015. That's like MJ losing Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant.. or Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman. The Bulls wouldn't have won a championship with either of those things happening.
• Kevin Durant pulls an unprecedented move, and as a prime-MVP player joins another prime MVP player in Steph Curry and a 73 win Warriors team. That's just never happened. Jordan never had to face anything like that, not even close.

10. LEBRON WAS ROBBED OF 2 MVP's
Lebron had 2 MVP's yanked from him which he deserved (2010-2011 and 2007-2008). He should easily have 6.

11. JORDAN GOT SPECIAL TREATMENT
Jordan was given a head start as far as traveling and fouls once he was crowned as the golden boy by the league, Nike, and sports media. He was the first guy who was allowed extra steps, and the first to play Harden-style ball who relied on getting the call from the ref.

12. FORGOTTEN FACT: JORDAN CHOKED IN HIS PRIME
While the MJ Establishment likes to forget this, it's true Jordan had an amazing comeback at the end of the 1994-95 season, but he gagged away the series by carelessly choking up the basketball in the final seconds as the bulls lost to the Magic. Many people don't even know that happened, because so many Jordan fans pretend Jordan's career was 6 years long plus the 63 point double OT loss to the Celtics.

13. FORGOTTEN FACTS: JORDAN OFTEN CHOKED AT THE END OF PLAYOFF/FINALS GAMES
Even in major NBA Finals moments, Jordan had plenty of moments where he gagged away last second shots. It's only the mythology that makes you think he "would have made" any clutch shot. Here's a few Just in the finals, not the whole playoffs:

• 1990 Game 1 the Lakers are up 92-91 with 9 seconds left, Chicago inbounds to Jordan who pulls up at 18 feet and misses/chokes. Loss.
• 1992 Game 2 the Blazers tied with 12 seconds left, Jordan walks the ball up and shoots with 2 sec left and bricks it, choking.
• 1997 Game 4 The Jazz are up 76-73 with 10 sec left, Jordan shoots a fadeaway 3 and chokes, jazz win.
• 1998 Game 5 The Jazz are up with 0.8 sec left, Jordan gets a good look on a catch and shoot and misses, another "choke".

14. MJ QUIT, LEBRON DIDN'T
And finally, Jordan won a 3-peat and.. retired? I don't get that. If he's such a hungry, working-man's man.. he quit? MJ fans like to applaud him for his dedication, but I'm sorry.. a guy who ups and quits in his prime isn't some model of dedication. He quit on his team. He can have his reasons, but I'm not expected to respect them when we're talking GOAT. The kitchen got too hot for MJ, and he left. I call that soft. Jordan was soft for leaving. No other GOAT candidates ran away to play baseball. There's no running from this.

 

[sealybobo]

Here's what an actual argument looks like, not just saying "He gives me the tingles"

Here's my contention as to why Lebron would be above MJ as the GOAT (even though I'm fine with not comparing generations)

1. LEBRON AS ROOKIE WAS MORE OF A WINNER THAN MJ
Lebron accounted for more games won his rookie year compared to the previous year than Jordan did for the Bulls:

• 83-84 Bulls (No Jordan) were 27-55. Jordan brought them up to 38-44 (+11 games)
• 02-03 Cavs (No Lebron) were 17-65, Lebron brought them up to 35-47 (+18 games)

2. LEBRON LED HIS TEAMS TO WINNING RECORDS EARLIER THAN MJ
Jordan didn't lead his team to a winning record until his 4th year. Meanwhile, a straight-out-of-high school Lebron had the Cavs at 42-40 in his second year. And neither player had all-stars around them.

3. MJ LED HIS TEAM TO LOSING RECORDS AND WAS DOMINATED OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS

• While Jordan's Bulls made the playoffs in his first 3 seasons, they made it with records of 38-44, 30-52 (Let me say that again, a 30-52 playoff team), and 40-42, and they were dominated out of the playoffs by Milwaukee 3-1 and two sweeps 3-0 by Boston.
• Jordan scored high points but averaged very high shots, low FG %, and had unconvincing and even horrible games with the season on the line, such as in 1986-87 Down 0-2 to Boston: Shoots 9-30, Scores 30points. Averaged 28 shots per game for the series to average 35ppg, horribly inefficient with a dismal 41% shooting.

4. LEBRON LED EARLY TEAMS TO DEEP PLAYOFF RUNS AND THE FINALS

• Lebron made the playoffs his 3rd year with a 50-32 record (Jordans 3rd year 40-42, and again, made the playoffs with horrible records)
• Lebron's 1st Playoff run in his 3rd year, he closes out Washington in the first round at the buzzer with 35-7-7 shooting 15-25 (60 percent), losing in the 2nd round to Detroit in 7 games.
• Lebron's 2nd Playoff run in his 4th year, he takes a team of average players to another 50-32 record through the Pistons and all the way to the NBA Finals.
• Jordan in his 4th year was busying getting knocked out in the 2nd round 4-1 by Detroit.
• Early Lebron was miles ahead of early Michael, and that matters.

5. JORDAN WAS DOMINATED BY OTHER CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS, LEBRON BEAT OTHER DYNASTIES

• Jordan didn't win until teams like the Celtics, Lakers, and Pistons aged out.
• Lebron's Heat beat the 5-time champion Spurs and his Cavs beat the 4-time champion Warriors.
• Jordan's Bulls faced historically weak NBA Finals opponents, while Lebron had all-time teams he had to face and beat.

6. JORDAN NEEDED LEGENDS TO WIN
- Jordan didn't win anything until Scottie Pippen, GOAT coach Phil Jackson, and Horace Grant were around in 1990-91. Before that he was a volume scorer who couldn't take average players deep into the playoffs, while Lebron did. However, both Jordan and MJ needed other all-time factors before they could start winning championships.

7. JORDAN PLAYED THE WEAKEST POSITION IN THE LEAGUE, LEBRON PLAYED THE BEST

• Jordan didn't face league-best competition at his position, as most other superstars played either PG, SF, PF, or Center. Listing off 80's/90's SG's offers a few all-time greats but not many. Drexler, Reggie Miller... that's about it.
• Meanwhile, in the 2000's/2010's, Lebron faced the likes of KD, Carmelo, T-Mac, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Grant Hill, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis, Paul George...

8. JORDAN DIDN'T MEAN AS MUCH TO THE BULLS SUCCESS AS LEBRON DID TO HIS TEAMS
- After Jordan retired the first time, the Bulls went from 57-25 to 55-27. That proves that the Bulls were an elite team without Jordan. Let's look at how Lebron effected teams:

• - Lebron Cavs 2010: 61-21. Next season 19-63 (-42)
• - D-wade Heat 2010: 47-35. Lebron Heat 2011: 58-24 (+11)
• - Lebron Heat 2013: 54-28. Next Season without: 37-45 (-17)
• - Kyrie Cavs 2013: 33-49. Lebron Cavs 2014: 53-29 (+20)
• - Lebron Cavs 2018: 50-32. Next season without: 19-63 (-31)

It's only until his First year in LA in his 16th season that he doesn't account for some major difference, although by the 2nd year he had the Lakers at 52-19 in the COVID year. While I'm not going to be dishonest and not mention that some of the Jumps for Lebron involved Chris Bosh in Miami, Kevin Love in Cleveland, etc... MJ also enjoyed major additions like Dennis Rodman/Toni Kukoc in their 2nd 3-peat. The data shows Lebron meant way more to his team's success than MJ did overall.

9. LEBRON DEALT WITH THINGS MJ NEVER HAD TO
Lebron has 4 championships, but I say likely has at least 6 if:

• Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love aren't injured and out of the Finals in 2015. That's like MJ losing Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant.. or Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman. The Bulls wouldn't have won a championship with either of those things happening.
• Kevin Durant pulls an unprecedented move, and as a prime-MVP player joins another prime MVP player in Steph Curry and a 73 win Warriors team. That's just never happened. Jordan never had to face anything like that, not even close.

10. LEBRON WAS ROBBED OF 2 MVP's
Lebron had 2 MVP's yanked from him which he deserved (2010-2011 and 2007-2008). He should easily have 6.

11. JORDAN GOT SPECIAL TREATMENT
Jordan was given a head start as far as traveling and fouls once he was crowned as the golden boy by the league, Nike, and sports media. He was the first guy who was allowed extra steps, and the first to play Harden-style ball who relied on getting the call from the ref.

12. FORGOTTEN FACT: JORDAN CHOKED IN HIS PRIME
While the MJ Establishment likes to forget this, it's true Jordan had an amazing comeback at the end of the 1994-95 season, but he gagged away the series by carelessly choking up the basketball in the final seconds as the bulls lost to the Magic. Many people don't even know that happened, because so many Jordan fans pretend Jordan's career was 6 years long plus the 63 point double OT loss to the Celtics.

13. FORGOTTEN FACTS: JORDAN OFTEN CHOKED AT THE END OF PLAYOFF/FINALS GAMES
Even in major NBA Finals moments, Jordan had plenty of moments where he gagged away last second shots. It's only the mythology that makes you think he "would have made" any clutch shot. Here's a few Just in the finals, not the whole playoffs:

• 1990 Game 1 the Lakers are up 92-91 with 9 seconds left, Chicago inbounds to Jordan who pulls up at 18 feet and misses/chokes. Loss.
• 1992 Game 2 the Blazers tied with 12 seconds left, Jordan walks the ball up and shoots with 2 sec left and bricks it, choking.
• 1997 Game 4 The Jazz are up 76-73 with 10 sec left, Jordan shoots a fadeaway 3 and chokes, jazz win.
• 1998 Game 5 The Jazz are up with 0.8 sec left, Jordan gets a good look on a catch and shoot and misses, another "choke".

14. MJ QUIT, LEBRON DIDN'T
And finally, Jordan won a 3-peat and.. retired? I don't get that. If he's such a hungry, working-man's man.. he quit? MJ fans like to applaud him for his dedication, but I'm sorry.. a guy who ups and quits in his prime isn't some model of dedication. He quit on his team. He can have his reasons, but I'm not expected to respect them when we're talking GOAT. The kitchen got too hot for MJ, and he left. I call that soft. Jordan was soft for leaving. No other GOAT candidates ran away to play baseball. There's no running from this.

You don’t like comparing different generations because young jordan had to beat Utah, Ewing, bad boys, Larry, magic, Hakeem, Barkley, Portland, SuperSonics, Alonzo mourning, All the hof players who don’t have rings because of Jordan.

Subjectively, Michael did it better. Lebron is imitating Jordan. A bad impersonation. Missing the hunger and ability to take over a game. Jordan wouldn’t let kyrie get out of line. He handled Rodman. It was tough but he did it.

Lebron won two with Wade and Bosch. He promised more but that fell apart. Haslem was on that team too.

Jordan knew when to walk. Brilliant. That adds to his legacy.