You sure aren't making a good argument.
I actually made a very point-by-point detailed specific argument, and you ignored all of it.
Here it is again:
Here's my contention as to why Lebron would be above MJ as the GOAT (even though I'm fine with not comparing generations)
1. LEBRON AS ROOKIE WAS MORE OF A WINNER THAN MJ
Lebron accounted for more games won his rookie year compared to the previous year than Jordan did for the Bulls:
- 83-84 Bulls (No Jordan) were 27-55. Jordan brought them up to 38-44 (+11 games)
- 02-03 Cavs (No Lebron) were 17-65, Lebron brought them up to 35-47 (+18 games)
2. LEBRON LED HIS TEAMS TO WINNING RECORDS EARLIER THAN MJ
Jordan didn't lead his team to a winning record until his 4th year. Meanwhile, a straight-out-of-high school Lebron had the Cavs at 42-40 in his second year. And neither player had all-stars around them.
3. MJ LED HIS TEAM TO LOSING RECORDS AND WAS DOMINATED OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS
- While Jordan's Bulls made the playoffs in his first 3 seasons, they made it with records of 38-44, 30-52 (Let me say that again, a 30-52 playoff team), and 40-42, and they were dominated out of the playoffs by Milwaukee 3-1 and two sweeps 3-0 by Boston.
- Jordan scored high points but averaged very high shots, low FG %, and had unconvincing and even horrible games with the season on the line, such as in 1986-87 Down 0-2 to Boston: Shoots 9-30, Scores 30points. Averaged 28 shots per game for the series to average 35ppg, horribly inefficient with a dismal 41% shooting.
4. LEBRON LED EARLY TEAMS TO DEEP PLAYOFF RUNS AND THE FINALS
- Lebron made the playoffs his 3rd year with a 50-32 record (Jordans 3rd year 40-42, and again, made the playoffs with horrible records)
- Lebron's 1st Playoff run in his 3rd year, he closes out Washington in the first round at the buzzer with 35-7-7 shooting 15-25 (60 percent), losing in the 2nd round to Detroit in 7 games.
- Lebron's 2nd Playoff run in his 4th year, he takes a team of average players to another 50-32 record through the Pistons and all the way to the NBA Finals.
- Jordan in his 4th year was busying getting knocked out in the 2nd round 4-1 by Detroit.
- Early Lebron was miles ahead of early Michael, and that matters.
5. JORDAN WAS DOMINATED BY OTHER CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS, LEBRON BEAT OTHER DYNASTIES
- Jordan didn't win until teams like the Celtics, Lakers, and Pistons aged out.
- Lebron's Heat beat the 5-time champion Spurs and his Cavs beat the 4-time champion Warriors.
- Jordan's Bulls faced historically weak NBA Finals opponents, while Lebron had all-time teams he had to face and beat.
6. JORDAN NEEDED LEGENDS TO WIN
- Jordan didn't win anything until Scottie Pippen, GOAT coach Phil Jackson, and Horace Grant were around in 1990-91. Before that he was a volume scorer who couldn't take average players deep into the playoffs, while Lebron did. However, both Jordan and MJ needed other all-time factors before they could start winning championships.
7. JORDAN PLAYED THE WEAKEST POSITION IN THE LEAGUE, LEBRON PLAYED THE BEST
- Jordan didn't face league-best competition at his position, as most other superstars played either PG, SF, PF, or Center. Listing off 80's/90's SG's offers a few all-time greats but not many. Drexler, Reggie Miller... that's about it.
- Meanwhile, in the 2000's/2010's, Lebron faced the likes of KD, Carmelo, T-Mac, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Grant Hill, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis, Paul George...
8. JORDAN DIDN'T MEAN AS MUCH TO THE BULLS SUCCESS AS LEBRON DID TO HIS TEAMS
- After Jordan retired the first time, the Bulls went from 57-25 to 55-27. That proves that the Bulls were an elite team without Jordan. Let's look at how Lebron effected teams:
- - Lebron Cavs 2010: 61-21. Next season 19-63 (-42)
- - D-wade Heat 2010: 47-35. Lebron Heat 2011: 58-24 (+11)
- - Lebron Heat 2013: 54-28. Next Season without: 37-45 (-17)
- - Kyrie Cavs 2013: 33-49. Lebron Cavs 2014: 53-29 (+20)
- - Lebron Cavs 2018: 50-32. Next season without: 19-63 (-31)
It's only until his First year in LA in his 16th season that he doesn't account for some major difference, although by the 2nd year he had the Lakers at 52-19 in the COVID year. While I'm not going to be dishonest and not mention that some of the Jumps for Lebron involved Chris Bosh in Miami, Kevin Love in Cleveland, etc... MJ also enjoyed major additions like Dennis Rodman/Toni Kukoc in their 2nd 3-peat. The data shows Lebron meant way more to his team's success than MJ did overall.
9. LEBRON DEALT WITH THINGS MJ NEVER HAD TO
Lebron has 4 championships, but I say likely has at least 6 if:
- Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love aren't injured and out of the Finals in 2015. That's like MJ losing Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant.. or Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman. The Bulls wouldn't have won a championship with either of those things happening.
- Kevin Durant pulls an unprecedented move, and as a prime-MVP player joins another prime MVP player in Steph Curry and a 73 win Warriors team. That's just never happened. Jordan never had to face anything like that, not even close.
10. LEBRON WAS ROBBED OF 2 MVP's
Lebron had 2 MVP's yanked from him which he deserved (2010-2011 and 2007-2008). He should easily have 6.
11. JORDAN GOT SPECIAL TREATMENT
Jordan was given a head start as far as traveling and fouls once he was crowned as the golden boy by the league, Nike, and sports media. He was the first guy who was allowed extra steps, and the first to play Harden-style ball who relied on getting the call from the ref.
12. FORGOTTEN FACT: JORDAN CHOKED IN HIS PRIME
While the MJ Establishment likes to forget this, it's true Jordan had an amazing comeback at the end of the 1994-95 season, but he gagged away the series by carelessly choking up the basketball in the final seconds as the bulls lost to the Magic. Many people don't even know that happened, because so many Jordan fans pretend Jordan's career was 6 years long plus the 63 point double OT loss to the Celtics.
13. FORGOTTEN FACTS: JORDAN OFTEN CHOKED AT THE END OF PLAYOFF/FINALS GAMES
Even in major NBA Finals moments, Jordan had plenty of moments where he gagged away last second shots. It's only the mythology that makes you think he "would have made" any clutch shot. Here's a few Just in the finals, not the whole playoffs:
- 1990 Game 1 the Lakers are up 92-91 with 9 seconds left, Chicago inbounds to Jordan who pulls up at 18 feet and misses/chokes. Loss.
- 1992 Game 2 the Blazers tied with 12 seconds left, Jordan walks the ball up and shoots with 2 sec left and bricks it, choking.
- 1997 Game 4 The Jazz are up 76-73 with 10 sec left, Jordan shoots a fadeaway 3 and chokes, jazz win.
- 1998 Game 5 The Jazz are up with 0.8 sec left, Jordan gets a good look on a catch and shoot and misses, another "choke".
14. MJ QUIT, LEBRON DIDN'T
And finally, Jordan won a 3-peat and.. retired? I don't get that. If he's such a hungry, working-man's man.. he quit? MJ fans like to applaud him for his dedication, but I'm sorry.. a guy who ups and quits in his prime isn't some model of dedication. He quit on his team. He can have his reasons, but I'm not expected to respect them when we're talking GOAT. The kitchen got too hot for MJ, and he left. I call that soft. Jordan was soft for leaving. No other GOAT candidates ran away to play baseball. There's no running from this.
All you're saying is my arguments aren't very good.
Rhetorically they aren't. You're using poor methods to convey your position.
