Who created the...

[RetiredGySgt]

If the argument is valid that God can not exist because something or someone had to create him to begin with.... then who created the material that caused the big bang?

Explain why that material could have just "existed" before everything with no requirement for anyone to explain where it came from?

Either stuff could have always existed, including a God or Gods OR where the hell did everything come from? Doesn't matter if you believe in Gods or Science only, the question remains, if you are going to question how God came to be, why not question how the big bang came to be?

 

[Diuretic]

We don't know how the universe was created. There are apparently some interesting theories. God did it is one of those theories.

 

[editec]

If the argument is valid that God can not exist because something or someone had to create him to begin with....

There is no valid argument disproving the existence of God, Gunny.

Such an argument is impossible to validate.

The non-existence of God argument would require one helluva long list. It would require a list of everything in existence, and from that list one would have to prove that God wasn't on it.

The only logical argument one can make on this subject is that no evidence exists which supports the argument for the existence of God.

 

[Shogun]

Could be the FSM for all we know..


now, RGS, why don't you prove how different OUR logic is and make the same statement about YOUR origin theory. I mean, perhaps the FSM CREATED your god too, right? Can you admit that?

 

[007]

If you could explain how everything came into existance, you would BE a God.

 

[Shogun]

and scientists can admit that the bang is only our best current theory.

can christians say the same about THEIR theory?

 

[manifold]

Don't be silly, that would be blasphemy.

 

[Shogun]

a concept foreign to science.

 

[AllieBaba]

If the argument is valid that God can not exist because something or someone had to create him to begin with.... then who created the material that caused the big bang?

Explain why that material could have just "existed" before everything with no requirement for anyone to explain where it came from?

Either stuff could have always existed, including a God or Gods OR where the hell did everything come from? Doesn't matter if you believe in Gods or Science only, the question remains, if you are going to question how God came to be, why not question how the big bang came to be?

THe Christian belief is that nobody/nothing created God, he, Jesus and the Holy Spirit have always existed. Believing that someone created God is believing that God isn't really God, which is a whole different thing at odds with any belief in God in any theistic religion (Jewish, Muslim or Christian).

It's one of the mysteries. Like...how can they be three separate entities, yet all God; how can God know every thought, every outcome and have a purpose for every earthly occurrence...and yet at the same time we have free will and are given the choice (and expected to try to make the right choice) to choose right, wrong, or indifferent....and how can Jesus be God's son if he's always been with God?

 

[AllieBaba]

and scientists can admit that the bang is only our best current theory.

can christians say the same about THEIR theory?

Christians believe God created the universe with a big bang....so they see the scientific proof for it pretty interesting.

 

[LOki]

If the argument is valid that God can not exist because something or someone had to create him to begin with.... then who created the material that caused the big bang?

Petito principi. It is not valid to presume an act of creation as the premise for an argument for a creator.

The existence of the universe is self-evident; it is valid without the presumption of creation or a creator.

Explain why that material could have just "existed" before everything with no requirement for anyone to explain where it came from?

The existence of the material is self-evident.

Either stuff could have always existed, including a God or Gods OR where the hell did everything come from?

The existence of the "stuff" is self evident--the existence of God or gods is not.

Doesn't matter if you believe in Gods or Science only, the question remains, if you are going to question how God came to be, why not question how the big bang came to be?

The origin and nature of the big-bang is constantly questioned by those who susbscribe to that particular theory that describes our universe. What's your real complaint?

 

[Shogun]

Christians believe God created the universe with a big bang....so they see the scientific proof for it pretty interesting.

HA!


yea, NOW they do. they also believe in heliocentrism and gravity too. NOW, at least.


how long did it take to finally assimilate ANOTHER secular idea into your theology?

 

[Abelian Sea]

There is an interesting sort of cop-out built in to the Big Bang theory. If all the universe's matter were, at one point, compressed into a singularity, then it would be physically impossible for us know anything about that matter before that point, because of the information-obliterating nature of black holes.

---

Why anyone actually believes the Big Bang theory is beyond me, though.

Don't get me wrong; it's a perfectly good model for the scientific method. After all, the galaxies appear to be moving away from eachother, and they appear to be filled with giant smoldering embers, swirling dust clouds, and lots of debris. In short, the universe physically resembles an explotion, and the Big Bang theory is, essentially, the assumption that universe is what it looks like, which is exactly the sort of assumption the scientific method calls for in its working hypotheses.

But you're not actually supposed to start believing such models until they've been extensively tested; the method calls for the cycle of observe, theorize, test, observe, tweak/replace the theory, test, etc. to be repeated many times before any real stock is to be put into the resulting theory. With this particular phenomenon, though, we can't really do any testing and our observational abilities are sorely limited, so the resulting theory, no matter how fitting to the method, should not be seen as anything more than a fantasy.

---

It irritates me in general when people treat Science as some sort of religion. It is logically impossible for the scientific method to result in certainty. Faith in science is paradoxical.

Sometimes it seems people see science as they key to understanding everything, but the scientific method is just a tool, and like any tool better suited to some jobs than others. Science is only really useful for investigating phenomena that can be quantified and reproduced in controlled environments. There are some very relevant things that fall under that category (the physical patterns of force and motion, for example), but really they only make up a fraction of human experience, and there are many, many questions that the scientific method simply cannot usefully address, either because of the limitations of our ability to observe and test (as in: what shape was the universe in billions of years ago?), or because of the nature of the phenomenon being questioned (as in: are events influenced by a superbeing existing outside of time and space?).

 

[Nemo Securus]

A belief in God or gods is strictly a faith based opinion. There is no physical evidence that God really exists unfortunately its something you just have to believe in if you so choose. I myself see nothing wrong with understanding how someone could believe in both God and science shogun. If someone believed deep down God exists and he created everything, then would it not stand that they would believe God also created science? Also unfortunately noone is around that is old enough to give us these answers to unlock the mysteries of the universe. Larry King maybe. So in short I guess what I am trying to say is that in your attempts to make the people of faith seem ignorant you in turn are making an ass of yourself. No disrespect just an observation.

 

[Shogun]

even scientists who believe in god don't insist that god belongs in the science class when christians have nothing better to offer than adam and eve. And, again, I DEFY you to name one single circumstance where dogma has provided more of an understanding of our reality than science. I mean JUST ONE EXAMPLE. Can you do that? Can you suggest to me ONE circumstance where faith healed an amputee rather than the science that provided a fake limb? Anything?

You may not like my personality, which is A-OK with me, but you really don't have anything to offer outside of calling me an ass or you'd have smoked that bad puppy by now.


and, you can BELIEVE whatever the hell you want to believe.. be it a god on a chariot pulling the sun across the sky or some jewish ghost telling humans to "believe or else"... But, at the end of the day, it's the SCIENCE that keeps slamming out home runs this side of the age of enlightenment, instead of mythology infused dogma. Maybe it takes an ass to say what Copernicus never got the chance to.

 

[Nemo Securus]

My arguement is not that science is wrong at all. I think its amazing what humans have been able to develope in all fields of science. My arguement is; why can't a person of faith also believe in scientific theory or fact? I mean I am pretty sure Billy Graham realizes when he drops an apple it hits the ground. Who are you to say whether or not a person is allowed to believe in something. If I were a Christian would I (in your world) not be able to acknowledge the existance of matter? Sure maybe praying doesn't magically make a tumor disappear but if it helps someone sleep at night is that so wrong?

 

[Shogun]

My arguement is not that science is wrong at all. I think its amazing what humans have been able to develope in all fields of science. My arguement is; why can't a person of faith also believe in scientific theory or fact? I mean I am pretty sure Billy Graham realizes when he drops an apple it hits the ground. Who are you to say whether or not a person is allowed to believe in something. If I were a Christian would I (in your world) not be able to acknowledge the existance of matter? Sure maybe praying doesn't magically make a tumor disappear but if it helps someone sleep at night is that so wrong?

WHAT is so wrong can be summed up in two words: Intelligent Design.

yea, NOW a thumper might finally admit gravity is real.. how far after Newton? The same with Copernicus and Galileo. What price did THEY pay for science? How does that compare/contrast with the current list of bible thugs insisting that darwin's ideas are just a satanic attempt to fool believers? Why is it that you cannot name one single circumstance where dogma trumps science? Why is it the historic pattern that thumpers cry blasphemy for a couple hundred hears before FINALLY coming to terms with gravity, heliocentrism and evolution?


Also, of you don't mind, im curious as HELL to hear what dogma, exactly, is known for it's open acceptance of non-belief. Thats a proverbial riot and im waiting for the punchline.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

My arguement is not that science is wrong at all. I think its amazing what humans have been able to develope in all fields of science. My arguement is; why can't a person of faith also believe in scientific theory or fact? I mean I am pretty sure Billy Graham realizes when he drops an apple it hits the ground. Who are you to say whether or not a person is allowed to believe in something. If I were a Christian would I (in your world) not be able to acknowledge the existance of matter? Sure maybe praying doesn't magically make a tumor disappear but if it helps someone sleep at night is that so wrong?

You will find that Shogun is a ignorant hate filled person when it comes to religion. He distorts and out right lies when it suits his purpose. Trying to make him understand that there is no reason a religious person can not believe in science is a waste of time.

You will find a number of very hate filled people on this board in regards religion. They distort information and twist anything that is said in an effort to pretend their opinion is the only valid one.

Several of us have explained faith a number of times and yet they just can't grasp it, even when they have the same "faith" in science. Of course saying that to them is like a slap in the face and they will go off any numerous tangents to try and claim they have no faith at all. All the while proclaiming that science knows all and is the answer to everything.

 

[Shogun]

talk of distortion coming from a MORMON. now THAT is rich as hell.


have any good mormon presidential nominees lately, dude? Why is that? Because of non-believers like me or because of fucking batshit crazy thumpers like you?


and, unless YOU can provide even ONE single example of dogma trumping science, then Yes... SCIENCE is the king of the hill.

 

[Nemo Securus]

any good arrogant, atheist, close minded, religion bashing, scientist making a showing on the ballots lately? or wait...ever?