Zone1 Who created all things?

[Paradoxical#1]

What are you willing to lose for prove?
View attachment 1119446​

That's indoctrination and propaganda by you elders.

 

[Donald H]

While school was in session, I elected to stop conversing with you, at least until summer. I may elect to stop again in the next instant if this returns to you telling me what I am "really" saying or believe; or what the Church "really" teaches. I am through back-tracking into what is actually said, believed, taught--I refuse to go chasing down those rabbit holes again. Let's start here:

1. It is not my intent--and never has been--my intent to convince anyone of anything. I am about perspectives. I share my perspective and do try to listen and understand the perspective of others. I see what I see; others see what they see. Almost all perspectives are worthy of respect.

2. The Catholic Church has not "changed its mind" about Genesis, evolution, etc. First, no one gave evolution a thought until relatively modern times. When it came into the picture, the Church simply adopted a wait and see attitude. Other Christian denominations--and no doubt some individual Catholics--took sides about Darwin's conclusions and theories. As Galileo remarked four hundred years ago, The Church teaches how to go to heaven--not how the heavens go. The same was true about evolution. The Church teaches God created man--not how he created man.

Stop harping about the above in posts to me, and we may have something to discuss. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

 

[Donald H]

While school was in session, I elected to stop conversing with you, at least until summer. I may elect to stop again in the next instant if this returns to you telling me what I am "really" saying or believe; or what the Church "really" teaches. I am through back-tracking into what is actually said, believed, taught--I refuse to go chasing down those rabbit holes again. Let's start here:

Welcome back. I was expecting you.
One should never tie his/her hands by proclaiming to ignore another. Better to just ignore what you don't consider to be worthy of a reply, and be able to reply when you feel it's necessary

1. It is not my intent--and never has been--my intent to convince anyone of anything. I am about perspectives. I share my perspective and do try to listen and understand the perspective of others. I see what I see; others see what they see. Almost all perspectives are worthy of respect.

Your sharing of your perspective is the attraction I saw in you! I'm sorry but I don't agree that you don't attempt to convince people. At times it's been only your comments on this topic that have been anything close to convincing

2. The Catholic Church has not "changed its mind" about Genesis, evolution, etc. First, no one gave evolution a thought until relatively modern times.

True that the recent times were Darwin's time and the churches then had no choice but to accept evolution over Genesis. I suggest that roughly half of the flock still don't accept evolution, but they're now left in the uncomfortable position of not being able to say honestly.

When it came into the picture, the Church simply adopted a wait and see attitude.

Yes! Wait and see what sort of damage control campaign would be necessary. Best case scenario would have been that 'faith' would defeat Darwin's evolution.

Other Christian denominations--and no doubt some individual Catholics--took sides about Darwin's conclusions and theories. As Galileo remarked four hundred years ago, The Church teaches how to go to heaven--not how the heavens go. The same was true about evolution. The Church teaches God created man--not how he created man.

I expect you to continue to try to make a case in which both evolution and Christian beliefs can both work. I just simply reject that argument and we can go on to debate it if you choose.

I can accept anything you say as long as you follow my lead on keeping it civil and not stooping to personal insults. If there's anything I've said in this reply to you that offends you, then I don't see it as being possible for you to accept my opinions on anything

Stop harping about the above in posts to me, and we may have something to discuss. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

You're going to have to explain what 'harping' offended you, before I agree to stop.
None of your behaviour offends me to a degree at which I feel that I have to demand that your stop it.

Sincerely, D.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Well, first off, where in the Bible does it teach that man did not pre-exist this life? 2nd, lets look at a few of these verse:

onefour1:

I almost feel sorry for you.

In the very first book of the Bible, Genesis, it makes clear that the first human, Adam, did not exist until Jehovah God created him.

Genesis 1:26​

Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”

Genesis 1:27​

And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.


Your next stupid comment will be that Adam existed before Jehovah said "Let us make man" (Genesis 1:26). In fact, you will come back with another idiotic comment telling the rest of us something to the effect that when Genesis 1:27 says "God went on to create the man" in reality, Adam already existed.

Proceed.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Here you go. Study this.

What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son? What does the word begotten mean in the original Greek of the New Testament?

www.gotquestions.org

BS Filter:

I asked you a total of four direct questions and gave you scriptures and dictionary definitions, and you're still playing Artful Dodger by refusing to answer the TRUE or FALSE questions. Not only that, you are now giving me a weblink to a Trinitarian website where some idiot posted their personal philosophy.

For your dishonesty in pretending you want to worship the True God, Jehovah, and for refusing to answer my questions, our conversation is over. Unlike kjw47 who feels pity for you and other misguided people and is trying to guide you to spiritual truths, I feel no pity for people who refuse to be corrected by scripture.

You, BS Filter, are nothing more than a pagan worshiper of a non-existent trinity god. Don't bother clicking on anymore of my comments on this website, because I will not be able to see anything you post once you're sent forthwith to my Ignore list.

Onto my Ignore List you go. There, you will be joining seven other hard-headed people who refuse to be corrected by scripture and whose nonsensical posts I refuse to even look at.

There's room for plenty more on my Ignore List. It's reserved for people who play slick by refusing to answer direct questions and simply show up on this website to post their personal philosophy.


Alter2Ego

 

[onefour1]

onefour1:

I almost feel sorry for you.

In the very first book of the Bible, Genesis, it makes clear that the first human, Adam, did not exist until Jehovah God created him.

Genesis 1:26​

Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”

Genesis 1:27​

And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.


Your next stupid comment will be that Adam existed before Jehovah said "Let us make man" (Genesis 1:26). In fact, you will come back with another idiotic comment telling the rest of us something to the effect that when Genesis 1:27 says "God went on to create the man" in reality, Adam already existed.

Proceed.


Alter2Ego

Nowhere in the verses you have shown does it state that Adam did not already exist. Your problem is that you believe the word create means to create from absolutely nothing. Nothing in scripture says that God created things from nothing. When God created mankind, he created his body from the dust of the earth and put man's already existing spirit within him and breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul. That is why in Ecclesiastes it clearly tells us that the spirit will return unto God who gave it:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Abraham 5:7-8
7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
8 And the Gods planted a garden, eastward in Eden, and there they put the man, whose spirit they had put into the body which they had formed.

I noticed that you ignored the verses I quoted showing that we existed prior to being born. Here they are again. What is your explanation for these verses:

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

So, who in your opinion were the sons of God who shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were beings laid?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Here we read that when we die, the body of mankind returns to the dust of the earth and the spirit of mankind shall return unto God who gave it. If we never existed before being born into this world, how can the spirit RETURN unto God who gave it?

John 9:2
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Why would the disciples think that a man could sin before he was born if we never existed before being born into this life?

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

How can we be the very offspring of God if we never existed prior to being born of our parents and being their offspring in this life?

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

How did God choose us in him before the foundation of the world if we never existed before the foundation of the world? How were we predestinated?

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Why are our earthly fathers only considered the fathers of our flesh but God is the Father of our spirits if our spirits never existed until our flesh was procreated by our earthly parents?

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Who are the brethren that were being accused by Lucifer and his minions in heaven that needed to overcome Satan and his minions by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, who were then subjected unto death?

 

[Alter2Ego]

Nowhere in the verses you have shown does it state that Adam did not already exist. Your problem is that you believe the word create means to create from absolutely nothing. Nothing in scripture says that God created things from nothing. When God created mankind, he created his body from the dust of the earth and put man's already existing spirit within him and breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul. That is why in Ecclesiastes it clearly tells us that the spirit will return unto God who gave it:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Abraham 5:7-8
7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
8 And the Gods planted a garden, eastward in Eden, and there they put the man, whose spirit they had put into the body which they had formed.

I noticed that you ignored the verses I quoted showing that we existed prior to being born. Here they are again. What is your explanation for these verses:

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

So, who in your opinion were the sons of God who shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were beings laid?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Here we read that when we die, the body of mankind returns to the dust of the earth and the spirit of mankind shall return unto God who gave it. If we never existed before being born into this world, how can the spirit RETURN unto God who gave it?

John 9:2
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Why would the disciples think that a man could sin before he was born if we never existed before being born into this life?

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

How can we be the very offspring of God if we never existed prior to being born of our parents and being their offspring in this life?

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

How did God choose us in him before the foundation of the world if we never existed before the foundation of the world? How were we predestinated?

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Why are our earthly fathers only considered the fathers of our flesh but God is the Father of our spirits if our spirits never existed until our flesh was procreated by our earthly parents?

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Who are the brethren that were being accused by Lucifer and his minions in heaven that needed to overcome Satan and his minions by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, who were then subjected unto death?

onefour1:

I just gave you the scripture at Genesis 1:26-27 where it shows the first man, Adam, did not exist until God created him.

If, in reality, you're lacking in reading-comprehension skills, that's not my problem. My suggestion is that you take a few adult classes at your nearest community college to improve your reading-comprehension skills. Until you do that, nobody can help you.

FYI: If you think I'm going to waste my time reading those out-of-context verses above that you presented in a wall of text, think again. Since it's clear that Genesis 1:26-27 is above your head, don't waste my time sending anymore of your stupid replies. If you repeat the behavior, I will send you to my Ignore List where you can join BS Filter, Cougarbear, ding, and several other hard-headed people that are determined to play the fool.

I've been a member of this website since 2012, but take a look at my post count: 239 as if today in 2025. There's a reason why I have accounts at over a dozen debate websites like this one. I move around when I get tired of the same stupid postings from people who are not interested in spiritual truths and who only show up to tell everyone what they choose to believe.

Don't bother me again with anymore of your foolishness.


Alter2Ego

 

[onefour1]

onefour1:

I just gave you the scripture at Genesis 1:26-27 where it shows the first man, Adam, did not exist until God created him.

Again, those verse do not state that Adam did not exist. Yes, it states that he was created. But what you don't understand is that his body was created from the dust of the earth and his spirit was placed in him and he then became a living SOUL.

If, in reality, you're lacking in reading-comprehension skills, that's not my problem. My suggestion is that you take a few adult classes at your nearest community college to improve your reading-comprehension skills. Until you do that, nobody can help you.

You ignore the verses that show that there was premortal existence of our spirits and go on believing that the word, "create" implies creation out of nothing, which it does not!! Answer the verses I posted showing that there is premortal existence of our spirits!!

FYI: If you think I'm going to waste my time reading those out-of-context verses above that you presented in a wall of text, think again. Since it's clear that Genesis 1:26-27 is above your head, don't waste my time sending anymore of your stupid replies. If you repeat the behavior, I will send you to my Ignore List where you can join BS Filter, Cougarbear, ding, and several other hard-headed people that are determined to play the fool.

So, you are basically going to ignore the verses showing that we did exist and hold to your stubborn view without addressing the verses. Please put me on your IGNORE LIST. If you can't have a conversation about the verses that show that you are wrong, then why would I care if you put me on your IGNORE LIST?

I've been a member of this website since 2012, but take a look at my post count: 239 as if today in 2025. There's a reason why I have accounts at over a dozen debate websites like this one. I move around when I get tired of the same stupid postings from people who are not interested in spiritual truths and who only show up to tell everyone what they choose to believe.

Don't bother me again with anymore of your foolishness.


Alter2Ego

I can tell you are angry because those verses prove you wrong. Good luck with your attitude of cancelling everyone who disagrees with you because you can't hold a decent argument against them.

 

[BS Filter]

BS Filter:

I asked you a total of four direct questions and gave you scriptures and dictionary definitions, and you're still playing Artful Dodger by refusing to answer the TRUE or FALSE questions. Not only that, you are now giving me a weblink to a Trinitarian website where some idiot posted their personal philosophy.

For your dishonesty in pretending you want to worship the True God, Jehovah, and for refusing to answer my questions, our conversation is over. Unlike kjw47 who feels pity for you and other misguided people and is trying to guide you to spiritual truths, I feel no pity for people who refuse to be corrected by scripture.

You, BS Filter, are nothing more than a pagan worshiper of a non-existent trinity god. Don't bother clicking on anymore of my comments on this website, because I will not be able to see anything you post once you're sent forthwith to my Ignore list.

Onto my Ignore List you go. There, you will be joining seven other hard-headed people who refuse to be corrected by scripture and whose nonsensical posts I refuse to even look at.

There's room for plenty more on my Ignore List. It's reserved for people who play slick by refusing to answer direct questions and simply show up on this website to post their personal philosophy.


Alter2Ego

You're mentally ill.