Which Came First Creation Or Evolution?

[ding]

How else do you think space and time were created if it were not created under laws of nature.

Thank you for admitting they are the Laws of NATURE and not of God!

I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
- Frank Lloyd Wright

Where do you think they came from?

NATURE!!!
DUH!

One and the same.

 

[ding]

So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool.

You contradict yourself and your ego prevents you from seeing it!
"Very high energy" is NOT "nothing."

I know that as time approaches infinity, matter and energy approach thermal equilibrium.

We went over this before, thermal equilibrium violates the Third Law of Thermodynamics. No amount of pontification will change that.

You are literally a moron. The very high energy is the inflation event. Not the moment preceding inflation.

Energy is STILL something and NOT nothing, before during and after inflation.

Space and time didn’t exist before inflation.

Not the time and space of this universe, but they possibly already existed in others before.

It certainly came from somewhere but you still have a first cause conundrum.

 

[Taz]

You contradict yourself and your ego prevents you from seeing it!
"Very high energy" is NOT "nothing."
We went over this before, thermal equilibrium violates the Third Law of Thermodynamics. No amount of pontification will change that.

You are literally a moron. The very high energy is the inflation event. Not the moment preceding inflation.

Energy is STILL something and NOT nothing, before during and after inflation.

Space and time didn’t exist before inflation.

Not the time and space of this universe, but they possibly already existed in others before.

It certainly came from somewhere but you still have a first cause conundrum.

So you agree that time and space probably existed before inflation. Good for you.

 

[edthecynic]

You contradict yourself and your ego prevents you from seeing it!
"Very high energy" is NOT "nothing."
We went over this before, thermal equilibrium violates the Third Law of Thermodynamics. No amount of pontification will change that.

Your TLOT argument is mumbo jumbo. It makes no sense at all.

Only to those ignorant of the Laws of science.

Then provide a link that proves it, Ed.

as has been shown to you many times before, according to the TLoT, there is no temperature at which all motion stops, therefore no thermal equilibrium.

You have a hard time understanding infinity.

Where’s you link?

Thermal equilibrium is a mathematical concept only, not a reality!!!!

Third Law of Thermodynamics
The Third Law of Thermodynamics refers to a state known as "absolute zero." This is the bottom point on the Kelvin temperature scale. The Kelvin scale is absolute, meaning 0° Kelvin is mathematically the lowest possible temperature in the universe. This corresponds to about -273.15° Celsius, or -459.7 Fahrenheit.

In actuality, no object or system can have a temperature of zero Kelvin, because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Second Law, in part, implies that heat can never spontaneously move from a colder body to a hotter body. So, as a system approaches absolute zero, it will eventually have to draw energy from whatever systems are nearby. If it draws energy, it can never obtain absolute zero. So, this state is not physically possible, but is a mathematical limit of the universe.

 

[edthecynic]

You contradict yourself and your ego prevents you from seeing it!
"Very high energy" is NOT "nothing."
We went over this before, thermal equilibrium violates the Third Law of Thermodynamics. No amount of pontification will change that.

You are literally a moron. The very high energy is the inflation event. Not the moment preceding inflation.

Energy is STILL something and NOT nothing, before during and after inflation.

Space and time didn’t exist before inflation.

Not the time and space of this universe, but they possibly already existed in others before.

It certainly came from somewhere but you still have a first cause conundrum.

So do you!

 

[SaxxyBlues]

I truly believe this is the way to be......

 

[BreezeWood]

View attachment 213820

I truly believe this is the way to be......

.

... and die to find out there isn't


would you find out or in the end, just never know .... wouldn't you be the same person in the end whichever path was taken if you are an honest person.

 

[ding]

You are literally a moron. The very high energy is the inflation event. Not the moment preceding inflation.

Energy is STILL something and NOT nothing, before during and after inflation.

Space and time didn’t exist before inflation.

Not the time and space of this universe, but they possibly already existed in others before.

It certainly came from somewhere but you still have a first cause conundrum.

So you agree that time and space probably existed before inflation. Good for you.

No. I agree that inflation is how time and space came to be.

 

[ding]

Your TLOT argument is mumbo jumbo. It makes no sense at all.

Only to those ignorant of the Laws of science.

Then provide a link that proves it, Ed.

as has been shown to you many times before, according to the TLoT, there is no temperature at which all motion stops, therefore no thermal equilibrium.

You have a hard time understanding infinity.

Where’s you link?

Thermal equilibrium is a mathematical concept only, not a reality!!!!

Third Law of Thermodynamics
The Third Law of Thermodynamics refers to a state known as "absolute zero." This is the bottom point on the Kelvin temperature scale. The Kelvin scale is absolute, meaning 0° Kelvin is mathematically the lowest possible temperature in the universe. This corresponds to about -273.15° Celsius, or -459.7 Fahrenheit.

In actuality, no object or system can have a temperature of zero Kelvin, because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Second Law, in part, implies that heat can never spontaneously move from a colder body to a hotter body. So, as a system approaches absolute zero, it will eventually have to draw energy from whatever systems are nearby. If it draws energy, it can never obtain absolute zero. So, this state is not physically possible, but is a mathematical limit of the universe.

Thermal equilibrium does not mean absolute zero. It means everything is at the same temperature.

This we do not see so we know that the universe has not existed forever. Now do you understand?

Or can you provide a link that shows because of the TLoT that the universe has existed forever?

 

[ding]

You are literally a moron. The very high energy is the inflation event. Not the moment preceding inflation.

Energy is STILL something and NOT nothing, before during and after inflation.

Space and time didn’t exist before inflation.

Not the time and space of this universe, but they possibly already existed in others before.

It certainly came from somewhere but you still have a first cause conundrum.

So do you!

No. I don't. I already explained this to you a dozen times. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which has existed forever and is unchanging. This cannot be matter and energy. It is something beyond matter and energy. Something more like consciousness.

 

[edthecynic]

Only to those ignorant of the Laws of science.

Then provide a link that proves it, Ed.

as has been shown to you many times before, according to the TLoT, there is no temperature at which all motion stops, therefore no thermal equilibrium.

You have a hard time understanding infinity.

Where’s you link?

Thermal equilibrium is a mathematical concept only, not a reality!!!!

Third Law of Thermodynamics
The Third Law of Thermodynamics refers to a state known as "absolute zero." This is the bottom point on the Kelvin temperature scale. The Kelvin scale is absolute, meaning 0° Kelvin is mathematically the lowest possible temperature in the universe. This corresponds to about -273.15° Celsius, or -459.7 Fahrenheit.

In actuality, no object or system can have a temperature of zero Kelvin, because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Second Law, in part, implies that heat can never spontaneously move from a colder body to a hotter body. So, as a system approaches absolute zero, it will eventually have to draw energy from whatever systems are nearby. If it draws energy, it can never obtain absolute zero. So, this state is not physically possible, but is a mathematical limit of the universe.

Thermal equilibrium does not mean absolute zero. It means everything is at the same temperature.

This we do not see so we know that the universe has not existed forever. Now do you understand?

Or can you provide a link that shows because of the TLoT that the universe has existed forever?

Thermal equilibrium is the temperature at which no more work can be done, however work can be done as long as there is motion (kinetic energy) in the universe. All motion stops only at absolute zero, which cannot happen in reality, so thermal equilibrium is a theoretical concept that cannot exist in reality.

 

[ding]

Then provide a link that proves it, Ed.

as has been shown to you many times before, according to the TLoT, there is no temperature at which all motion stops, therefore no thermal equilibrium.

You have a hard time understanding infinity.

Where’s you link?

Thermal equilibrium is a mathematical concept only, not a reality!!!!

Third Law of Thermodynamics
The Third Law of Thermodynamics refers to a state known as "absolute zero." This is the bottom point on the Kelvin temperature scale. The Kelvin scale is absolute, meaning 0° Kelvin is mathematically the lowest possible temperature in the universe. This corresponds to about -273.15° Celsius, or -459.7 Fahrenheit.

In actuality, no object or system can have a temperature of zero Kelvin, because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Second Law, in part, implies that heat can never spontaneously move from a colder body to a hotter body. So, as a system approaches absolute zero, it will eventually have to draw energy from whatever systems are nearby. If it draws energy, it can never obtain absolute zero. So, this state is not physically possible, but is a mathematical limit of the universe.

Thermal equilibrium does not mean absolute zero. It means everything is at the same temperature.

This we do not see so we know that the universe has not existed forever. Now do you understand?

Or can you provide a link that shows because of the TLoT that the universe has existed forever?

Thermal equilibrium is the temperature at which no more work can be done, however work can be done as long as there is motion (kinetic energy) in the universe. All motion stops only at absolute zero, which cannot happen in reality, so thermal equilibrium is a theoretical concept that cannot exist in reality.

Again you are having a hard time comprehending the implications of infinity. But no, thermal equilibrium is a state in which there is no heat flow between two bodies or systems even though there is a possible path for such heat flow. It amounts to saying the two bodies are at the same temperature.

But for the sake of argument, do you even see anything close to no work being done now? I see lot's of stars fusing hydrogen into helium. No motion required for that.

Because I don't, and this means that the universe has not existed forever and that means it had a beginning.

 

[edthecynic]

Energy is STILL something and NOT nothing, before during and after inflation.

Space and time didn’t exist before inflation.

Not the time and space of this universe, but they possibly already existed in others before.

It certainly came from somewhere but you still have a first cause conundrum.

So do you!

No. I don't. I already explained this to you a dozen times. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which has existed forever and is unchanging. This cannot be matter and energy. It is something beyond matter and energy. Something more like consciousness.

As I have explained to you over and over it can only be energy. Energy has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity. This is a fact that has been PROVEN by a repeatable experiment, so you can't pontificate it away, you must show by a repeatable experiment that it is wrong. PERIOD!

 

[edthecynic]

I see lot's of stars fusing hydrogen into helium. No motion required for that.

Are not there electrons in motion in both hydrogen and helium?
Why yes, yes there are and although you can't see them with the naked eye, their motion can be made visible by real scientists from the tracks they leave in a cloud chamber.

 

[ding]

Space and time didn’t exist before inflation.

Not the time and space of this universe, but they possibly already existed in others before.

It certainly came from somewhere but you still have a first cause conundrum.

So do you!

No. I don't. I already explained this to you a dozen times. The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which has existed forever and is unchanging. This cannot be matter and energy. It is something beyond matter and energy. Something more like consciousness.

As I have explained to you over and over it can only be energy. Energy has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity. This is a fact that has been PROVEN by a repeatable experiment, so you can't pontificate it away, you must show by a repeatable experiment that it is wrong. PERIOD!

No. Thermal equilibrium is a state in which there is no heat flow between two bodies or systems even though there is a possible path for such heat flow. It amounts to saying the two bodies are at the same temperature.

This we do not see.

 

[ding]

I see lot's of stars fusing hydrogen into helium. No motion required for that.

Are not there electrons in motion in both hydrogen and helium?
Why yes, yes there are and although you can't see them with the naked eye, their motion can be made visible by real scientists from the tracks they leave in a cloud chamber.

Doesn't matter. Thermal equilibrium is a state in which there is no heat flow between two bodies or systems even though there is a possible path for such heat flow. It amounts to saying the two bodies are at the same temperature.

This we do not see.

Do you believe that heat transfers from warmer bodies to cooler bodies? And given enough time those temperatures will equalize at which there will be no further transfer of heat?

Do you see this today?

 

[edthecynic]

Thermal equilibrium is a state in which there is no heat flow between two bodies or systems even though there is a possible path for such heat flow.

No, thermal equilibrium is the state where temperature differences or other processes may no longer be exploited to perform work.

 

[edthecynic]

I see lot's of stars fusing hydrogen into helium. No motion required for that.

Are not there electrons in motion in both hydrogen and helium?
Why yes, yes there are and although you can't see them with the naked eye, their motion can be made visible by real scientists from the tracks they leave in a cloud chamber.

Doesn't matter. Thermal equilibrium is a state in which there is no heat flow between two bodies or systems even though there is a possible path for such heat flow. It amounts to saying the two bodies are at the same temperature.

This we do not see.

Do you believe that heat transfers from warmer bodies to cooler bodies? And given enough time those temperatures will equalize at which there will be no further transfer of heat?

Do you see this today?

First you say there is no motion when hydrogen fuses into helium, and when you are shown to be wrong you go right back to pontificating as if you are STILL infallible.

 

[ding]

Thermal equilibrium is a state in which there is no heat flow between two bodies or systems even though there is a possible path for such heat flow.

No, thermal equilibrium is the state where temperature differences or other processes may no longer be exploited to perform work.

Does temperature move from hotter to colder?

 

[ding]

I see lot's of stars fusing hydrogen into helium. No motion required for that.

Are not there electrons in motion in both hydrogen and helium?
Why yes, yes there are and although you can't see them with the naked eye, their motion can be made visible by real scientists from the tracks they leave in a cloud chamber.

Doesn't matter. Thermal equilibrium is a state in which there is no heat flow between two bodies or systems even though there is a possible path for such heat flow. It amounts to saying the two bodies are at the same temperature.

This we do not see.

Do you believe that heat transfers from warmer bodies to cooler bodies? And given enough time those temperatures will equalize at which there will be no further transfer of heat?

Do you see this today?

First you say there is no motion when hydrogen fuses into helium, and when you are shown to be wrong you go right back to pontificating as if you are STILL infallible.

No. I am saying that the temperature will equalize because it flows from hotter bodies to colder bodies and given enough time the temperature will be the same everywhere. This we do not see.