When the Collapse Comes...

[WinterBorn]

It is the world preppers want to live in....Every man for himself

Rather than getting with neighbors and pooling their resources, their post apocalyptic world revolves around chasing away your former friends

Reminds me of an episode of the Twilight Zone

Any prepper that doesn't coordinate and build/join/lead a community of at least 150-400 people will die. At the very least, any community smaller than that is guaranteed to go extinct after 20 years, as they will lack the ability to produce offspring at sufficiently high numbers.

Initially you only need a group of 12-20, so a regular night-shift could be established with 3+ men. Since you'll always need 3+ men on patrol (6 hour shifts), you'll need at least 12 men. Ideally you want at least one woman for every men, or there will be conflict.

Our group will be small but certainly not handicapped by that. In my mind, the important thing is to survive for the first couple of years, then start rebuilding. The rebuilding will be in cooperation with other groups.

As for security and patrols, those need not be gender specific roles. Anyone able to walk a perimeter and handle a firearm will be part of that.

 

[WinterBorn]

For those who live day-to-day, being close to the PODs (points of distribution) for bottled water, food, necessities is the only way to go. Being out in the boonies is probably a bad idea.

Like it or not, events happen that challenge the societal norms.
The good thing about the norms is that they tend to restore themselves over time.

Good to be prepared during the interim however.

Once again, it depends. It depends on the type of emergency and the duration. If it was a hurricane or tropical storm, being near the PODs would be excellent. It gives you ready access without expending resources to get there.

If it was an EMP or geomagnetic storm (as was discussed before), the areas around the PODs would likely be some of the most violent and dangerous places, especially as the supplies start to run low.

If it is one of the major SHTF events, and if I am in the boonies I can control the situation much better. With fewer people and a very low visibility, I and my family are much safer.

To each his own, but I'd go with being near the PODs, as candycorn mentioned. It not only gives you access to the necessities, which even after running out, can be restored with some effort by the population. Also a larger tight-knit population probably is more secure than being alone out in the boonies, where the boonies will present its own set of
problems, such as the lack of back up, if/whenver the bad guys show up.
I'd like to be near the good fishing spots of Tampa Bay, and use my years of experience catching fish, for a consistent high quality food supply. Spanish mackerel in the spring and fall, snook and flounder in the winter, redfish in the summer, sharks and seatrout year round.

Near the PODs means being near the massive crowds that have panicked. That doesn't sound like a good situation.

The boonies do present their own set of challenges. But they also present many advantages, such as food for the survivors, cover for hiding from enemies, and a far smaller chance of a crowd of desperate, starving people descending on your camp.

Fish will be a good source of protein. I'll be running a trotline, and will be able to work on other tasks while I fish.

 

[candycorn]

This thread is comedy gold!

I think it's rather sad in some respects and surreal in others. We've learned...

Not sure who said what over 500+ posts but someone said that they would explain to their kids that their classmate had to die of hunger because the parents didn't prepare. As if a kid would forgive you for not sharing some of the food you've hoarded with his classmate?

That some would feed their dogs but not fellow humans

That some actually feel that being away from support structures is better than embracing them.

I'm all for being prepared. As said I go above and beyond what is required by my job because I've been in situations like that before--hurricanes and the like. So I have some cash on hand and more food than required and even games to pass the time since most of the time will be down time (it always is).

The "Ive got mine, **** you" attitude that is embraced by many here is probably just brovado. Those who are serious is indicative of that which we have lost in this country that is most painful; concern for our fellow American.

 

[WinterBorn]

This thread is comedy gold!

I think it's rather sad in some respects and surreal in others. We've learned...

Not sure who said what over 500+ posts but someone said that they would explain to their kids that their classmate had to die of hunger because the parents didn't prepare. As if a kid would forgive you for not sharing some of the food you've hoarded with his classmate?

That some would feed their dogs but not fellow humans

That some actually feel that being away from support structures is better than embracing them.

I'm all for being prepared. As said I go above and beyond what is required by my job because I've been in situations like that before--hurricanes and the like. So I have some cash on hand and more food than required and even games to pass the time since most of the time will be down time (it always is).

The "Ive got mine, **** you" attitude that is embraced by many here is probably just brovado. Those who are serious is indicative of that which we have lost in this country that is most painful; concern for our fellow American.

I think, in any discussion of what we would do in a situation, it is critical to define the situation.

Many of those here, myself included, were discussing actions to be taken in the event of a long-term, major collapse of society. Now it may seem harsh that we want to leave the cities in favor of more rural environs. But it is the logical and safe thing to do. Rebuilding will come. But it will have to wait until the people left can be fed. As with the example of the EMP/Solar event, there will be no way to transport food into the population centers. That will mean huge crowds of desperate people. That will not be swayed by good will or compassion.

In the event of a less serious crisis, as in storms, earthquakes or the like, many of us will be helping recover. I have done it, both for a living and on personal time, for much of my life.

 

[WinterBorn]

These are the three weapons you need when SHTF:

Exhibit 1, the AA-12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8

If you're an a very open and rural area, use a .22 instead of AA-12. If you're in a suburban/urban, go with AA-12 and avoid open areas. The AA-12 is ideal for defending fresh water sources, as it's immune to water. A team of men submerged with long range snorkel can easily eliminate strangers drinking/tampering/destroying/infecting your water supply.

Exhibit 2,
One-Handed Sword and a light basic shield, a metal garbage can lid will do, carry these on your back, with the AA-12 in your hands. Your shield is only for blocking slingshots and other melee attacks. These primitive weapons will be common, even you will use them from time to time.

Best to carry a dagger/combat knife if you end up in a grapple. Your sword won't help here.
Exhibit 3,
Molotov Cocktail with Poison Ivy

It's an easily made explosive, and the fumes of the poison ivy will kill your attackers aftewards, about an hour or two. When the other attackers see their kin drown in their own blood (classic death by poison ivy inhlation) they'll be filled with terror and won't return. These can also be used the create smokescreens and firewalls for retreats.

Seriously? An AA-12? First off, where do you buy an AA-12?

Secondly, and more importantly, how much does a full auto AA-12 cost? $15k?

And how much ammo do you go thru blasting away with that thing?


I like your idea of using native fauna to combat invaders. But poison ivy? First of all, processing it would put plenty of your cohorts at risk. Secondly, the allergic reaction to poison ivy can come and go in any given individual. You may not be allergic now, but will react badly to it next year.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Anyone else notice how liberals try and twist whats being said about being prepared into something that fits their narrative?
It's the exact same thing they do in politics. If it doesnt make the other side look bad they just add points that you never made.

Anyway...
That they think they'll survive in a SHTF scenario in the city with no weapons or food is hilarious. All you have to do is look at the ghettos of America and multiply by a thousand to get a basic understanding of what it would be like. Forget about the people who would go rogue just because they could. The average Joe would have to become something he or she would never have considered just to survive.
And they say we live in a fantasy land..........

 

[protectionist]

Anyone else notice how liberals try and twist whats being said about being prepared into something that fits their narrative?
It's the exact same thing they do in politics. If it doesnt make the other side look bad they just add points that you never made.

Anyway...
That they think they'll survive in a SHTF scenario in the city with no weapons or food is hilarious. All you have to do is look at the ghettos of America and multiply by a thousand to get a basic understanding of what it would be like. Forget about the people who would go rogue just because they could. The average Joe would have to become something he or she would never have considered just to survive.
And they say we live in a fantasy land..........

All points well taken. The extremes we saw in those Mel Gibson post-apocalypse movies are probably slight compared to the real thing (being played out in Iraq right now, for example). Hell, I'm armed 24/7 right now, even without any SHTF scenario. Got a 12 gauge shotgun and M4 carbine for self-defense in the house, and a .380 semi-automatic pistol (with a CWP) for going outside.
For those unable to acquire firearms (which are somewhat costly), a simple jackknife is a good self-defense weapon, as is a pepper spray, a stun gun, a ball-point pen, a cigarette lighter (with an adjustable flame), a barbeque lighter, a few golf balls or small round rocks, and a 2' long piece of thin rope.

 

[JimBowie1958]

LOL. So funny to see the dingbats hoping for the end of the present society that they do poorly in, believing that they will excell in the aftermath.

I am an engineer with a four year degree who has served as a contractor with, mostly, the US government. Some have told me that I have done quite well in my life for where I began, but ideologues like you always think your opponents idiots by definition.

I am now disabled.

You seem to have plenty of time on your hands as well.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Anyone else notice how liberals try and twist whats being said about being prepared into something that fits their narrative?
It's the exact same thing they do in politics. If it doesnt make the other side look bad they just add points that you never made.

They don't TRY to twist things to fit their narrative, it just comes naturally to all ideologues. To the ideologue reality is their set of pet theories and all else, including actual objective Reality, must therefore fit entirely within that set of ideologies.

 

[WinterBorn]

I looked around for prices on the fully automatic AA-12. The best price I have seen is $18k.

I have seen quite a few dressed out Remington 870 tactical shotguns for $900 or less.

Given the choice between one AA-12 (not sure how durable or reliable it is) or 20 Remington 870s, I'd go with the ultra reliable and durable pump gun.


Another problem with the more exotic weapons is that, if you use them, the people who hear it or see it will talk about it. In a post-apocalyptic world, that sort of weapon will draw all the wrong kind of attention.

One of the things my friends and I discussed was that the initial person seen by anyone traveling would be simple bolt action hunting rifle. It is not the only sort of weapon at camp, but it will be the one seen at the road in. This lets people know we are armed, but does not make use a high value target.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I like your idea of using native fauna to combat invaders. But poison ivy? First of all, processing it would put plenty of your cohorts at risk. Secondly, the allergic reaction to poison ivy can come and go in any given individual. You may not be allergic now, but will react badly to it next year.

Beware of Burning Poison Ivy or Oak

It is tempting to burn a poison ivy or oak plant when you want to get rid of it for good, but do not ever burn them! The poison plant oil called urushiol can burn, and you can inhale the toxin. This could cause a very severe allergic reaction.

According to the Wildland Firefighter Magazine website, inhalation of burning poison ivy and oak plants is common among firefighters although much less common among the general population. The heavy particles of the smoke contain urushiol, which will fall down in soot form and can be inhaled. The lungs can swell, cause coughing, and extreme irritation and swelling in the throat. It can also cause blisters that break and run. Know where your firewood is coming from.

If you have freshly chopped firewood that may have been growing near poison ivy or oak, be careful and think twice about burning it. Also if you have broken out in a poison ivy or oak rash after handling firewood, that may be because the plant's oil is on the surface of the wood.

If you think you may have inhaled burning poison ivy or oak, seek medical attention immediately. Only a medical professional can administer proper treatment in such a case.

Some responses on that topic by some folks at Yahoo
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110706191441AA1cGBo

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I looked around for prices on the fully automatic AA-12. The best price I have seen is $18k.

I have seen quite a few dressed out Remington 870 tactical shotguns for $900 or less.

Given the choice between one AA-12 (not sure how durable or reliable it is) or 20 Remington 870s, I'd go with the ultra reliable and durable pump gun.


Another problem with the more exotic weapons is that, if you use them, the people who hear it or see it will talk about it. In a post-apocalyptic world, that sort of weapon will draw all the wrong kind of attention.

One of the things my friends and I discussed was that the initial person seen by anyone traveling would be simple bolt action hunting rifle. It is not the only sort of weapon at camp, but it will be the one seen at the road in. This lets people know we are armed, but does not make use a high value target.

You cant beat an 870 for durability. I have one thats well over 25 years old and still shoots like new.

 

[WinterBorn]

I looked around for prices on the fully automatic AA-12. The best price I have seen is $18k.

I have seen quite a few dressed out Remington 870 tactical shotguns for $900 or less.

Given the choice between one AA-12 (not sure how durable or reliable it is) or 20 Remington 870s, I'd go with the ultra reliable and durable pump gun.


Another problem with the more exotic weapons is that, if you use them, the people who hear it or see it will talk about it. In a post-apocalyptic world, that sort of weapon will draw all the wrong kind of attention.

One of the things my friends and I discussed was that the initial person seen by anyone traveling would be simple bolt action hunting rifle. It is not the only sort of weapon at camp, but it will be the one seen at the road in. This lets people know we are armed, but does not make use a high value target.

You cant beat an 870 for durability. I have one thats well over 25 years old and still shoots like new.

I have one that is 12 years old and works like a charm. Tough beasts.

 

[WinterBorn]

Anyone else notice how liberals try and twist whats being said about being prepared into something that fits their narrative?
It's the exact same thing they do in politics. If it doesnt make the other side look bad they just add points that you never made.

Anyway...
That they think they'll survive in a SHTF scenario in the city with no weapons or food is hilarious. All you have to do is look at the ghettos of America and multiply by a thousand to get a basic understanding of what it would be like. Forget about the people who would go rogue just because they could. The average Joe would have to become something he or she would never have considered just to survive.
And they say we live in a fantasy land..........

I think the liberals were on the attack here, but I have seen lunacy from both sides of the fence in this thread.

 

[candycorn]

This thread is comedy gold!

I think it's rather sad in some respects and surreal in others. We've learned...

Not sure who said what over 500+ posts but someone said that they would explain to their kids that their classmate had to die of hunger because the parents didn't prepare. As if a kid would forgive you for not sharing some of the food you've hoarded with his classmate?

That some would feed their dogs but not fellow humans

That some actually feel that being away from support structures is better than embracing them.

I'm all for being prepared. As said I go above and beyond what is required by my job because I've been in situations like that before--hurricanes and the like. So I have some cash on hand and more food than required and even games to pass the time since most of the time will be down time (it always is).

The "Ive got mine, **** you" attitude that is embraced by many here is probably just brovado. Those who are serious is indicative of that which we have lost in this country that is most painful; concern for our fellow American.

In one way, it's cool that the preppers won't be near our hospitals so the crush may not be as bad as we predict.

If they can take care of their own, dandy. More power to them. Infection by airborne/bloodborne pathogens can happen pretty quickly and all the bullets and bluster in the world won't stop your body from spreading the diseases to your organs.

 

[RandallFlagg]

This thread is comedy gold!

I think it's rather sad in some respects and surreal in others. We've learned...

Not sure who said what over 500+ posts but someone said that they would explain to their kids that their classmate had to die of hunger because the parents didn't prepare. As if a kid would forgive you for not sharing some of the food you've hoarded with his classmate?

That some would feed their dogs but not fellow humans

That some actually feel that being away from support structures is better than embracing them.

I'm all for being prepared. As said I go above and beyond what is required by my job because I've been in situations like that before--hurricanes and the like. So I have some cash on hand and more food than required and even games to pass the time since most of the time will be down time (it always is).

The "Ive got mine, **** you" attitude that is embraced by many here is probably just brovado. Those who are serious is indicative of that which we have lost in this country that is most painful; concern for our fellow American.

In one way, it's cool that the preppers won't be near our hospitals so the crush may not be as bad as we predict.

If they can take care of their own, dandy. More power to them. Infection by airborne/bloodborne pathogens can happen pretty quickly and all the bullets and bluster in the world won't stop your body from spreading the diseases to your organs.

This "prepper" as you put it, will be be nowhere near a hospital. That's the advantage of having a Wife who is a long-time Nurse.

Yes, we have prepared for THAT eventually too.

Unfortunately, that's one of those things that a lot of people never take into consideration. It's fine to say that you have a years supply of food and ammo, but what do you do if you (unfortunately) break your leg? Or have a serious infection that requires antibiotics? or are wounded? or attacked by a wild animal?

If the public is concerned about what is coming - you had better plan for ALL eventualities - because at some point - they WILL happen. There is no better place for "Murphy's Law" than in a catastrophe.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Bro......you're not choosing wisely for the situation. Ive got a Saiga 7.62 and about 2,200 rounds. But in a SHTF situation, this is a far far better choice >>>


MOSSBERG 930 SLUG DESTRUCTION - YouTube


Dude is using slugs but 00 buck ensures death at anything less than 50 paces and in those situations, it'll be a lot less distance. Only one shot too by the way!!!

Nice shotgun, no doubt. Steel plates don't shoot back. I'll take my chances with my AR-10 or my Remington 700 with the Leupold Mark 4 6.5-20x50mm Rifle Scope (in those trees in front of the shooter) any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Once I put on my Ghillie and hit the woods - it's over. And isn't that point of it all? I've had bucks walk within 20 yards of me. Easy pickings.


The problem with slugs ( or even .00) is that they pattern only slightly larger than the average pistol - the odds of missing are nearly as good as with a pistol. Personal preference for home defense? An AR-15 with a 30-40 round magazine and a decent TAC light. But that's me.....

Perhaps.....it really is a matter of personal choice. Still, I like the idea that if you do hit your target with 00 buck, the target is hitting the floor within 2 seconds with whole organs gone and sitting in the wall or across the street!!


Anyway.....00 buck damage at about 20 paces here >>>>


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOPySoJi3dI#t=22]Saiga 12 vs concrete block slugs, 3 in mag oo buck - YouTube[/ame]


I love posting this kind of shit up......absolutely fReAkS out the lefty limpwristers.


I have a Mossberg 930 but dang, love to own a Saiga 12 too.

Oh, make no mistake about it, I have a Binelli 12 gauge myself - I just prefer the "reach out" effect of a larger caliber rifle round. Being a combat vet, I prefer to meet the enemy as far away as is practical for a situation then "regroup and reconstitute" at another location.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

This thread is comedy gold!

I think it's rather sad in some respects and surreal in others. We've learned...

Not sure who said what over 500+ posts but someone said that they would explain to their kids that their classmate had to die of hunger because the parents didn't prepare. As if a kid would forgive you for not sharing some of the food you've hoarded with his classmate?

That some would feed their dogs but not fellow humans

That some actually feel that being away from support structures is better than embracing them.

I'm all for being prepared. As said I go above and beyond what is required by my job because I've been in situations like that before--hurricanes and the like. So I have some cash on hand and more food than required and even games to pass the time since most of the time will be down time (it always is).

The "Ive got mine, **** you" attitude that is embraced by many here is probably just brovado. Those who are serious is indicative of that which we have lost in this country that is most painful; concern for our fellow American.

In one way, it's cool that the preppers won't be near our hospitals so the crush may not be as bad as we predict.

If they can take care of their own, dandy. More power to them. Infection by airborne/bloodborne pathogens can happen pretty quickly and all the bullets and bluster in the world won't stop your body from spreading the diseases to your organs.

Anyone who would be considered prepared will have antibiotics and a local for stitching up and what not. Ideally you would have a nurse in your group,but you can learn plenty about basic emergency care in books if you have to.
And not being among the dirty masses and dead bodies will go a long way in keeping you healthy.

 

[RandallFlagg]

For the "less than inclined" medical personnel - but those who want the basics - I would HIGHLY recommend this:

Ranger Medic Handbook: 75th Ranger Regiment Trauma Management Team (Tactical) (2007 Edition)


-OR-, and

SURVIVAL, EVASION, RESISTANCE AND ESCAPE HANDBOOK, SERE and GUERILLA WARFARE AND SPECIAL FORCES OPERATIONS, US Army Field Manual, FM 31-21

The SF handbook is more for the military and ex-military - they will understand the jargon - but there is enough useful information to be worthwhile..

However, the VERY BEST information you can gain is by getting out into the area that YOU might want to "make a stand" in and learn EVERY SQUARE INCH of the land. Scout out the wildlife, the natural vegetation, areas with fresh water and, most importantly - the area that you would occupy and defend. You'd be surprised how much knowledge you can gain by actually "LIVING" it for three or four days at a time.

 

[WinterBorn]

For the "less than inclined" medical personnel - but those who want the basics - I would HIGHLY recommend this:

Ranger Medic Handbook: 75th Ranger Regiment Trauma Management Team (Tactical) (2007 Edition)


-OR-, and

SURVIVAL, EVASION, RESISTANCE AND ESCAPE HANDBOOK, SERE and GUERILLA WARFARE AND SPECIAL FORCES OPERATIONS, US Army Field Manual, FM 31-21

The SF handbook is more for the military and ex-military - they will understand the jargon - but there is enough useful information to be worthwhile..

However, the VERY BEST information you can gain is by getting out into the area that YOU might want to "make a stand" in and learn EVERY SQUARE INCH of the land. Scout out the wildlife, the natural vegetation, areas with fresh water and, most importantly - the area that you would occupy and defend. You'd be surprised how much knowledge you can gain by actually "LIVING" it for three or four days at a time.

Absolutely!! Good post.