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What would it take to get you to take the vax?

Rigby5

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The vaccine immunity does NOT give you a better immunity from infection.
Never has vaccine immunity been more effective than recovery immunity.
That's highly variable. Peoples reaction can be based both on their physiology, and on the actual viral load they received. You might have had a very low infection, which wouldn't produce as much of a protective reaction as the vaccine. While people exposed to a much higher viral load might be the one's taking longer to recover, experience worse symptoms, and even require hospitalization.

Wrong.
Your immune response has NOTHING at all to do with actual viral load.
It is ONLY with vaccines where may need a booster.
That is because when you are actually infected, there are millions of the full virus and your body can't help but identify and store their identifying markers.
In comparison, a vaccine is tiny. It is the vaccine your body could easily have ignored or not known what to do with, because it is not growing in your body, no cells are sending out exosome warnings, and it does not stay in the body long.
 

independent minded

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
In this case, yeh!

Definitely NOT the case.
Natural immunity from recovery is ALWAYS better, faster, and stronger than vaccination immunity.
The only reason to go with vaccination immunity over recovery immunity is that recovery immunity had more risks.
Not just more risk of death, but more risk of infecting others.
A vaccine won't cause you to infect others.
I disagree with you here. It's a known fact that vaccines have saved many lives. Recovery immunity provides even more risks with Covid-19, because it's much more deadly, as well as being more contagious, plus it does permanent damage by killing off the lung tissue, as well. You've got a problem with my having gotten the vaccines and providing myself with protection--tough s**t.

You need to work on your reading.
Clearly I wrote that vaccines were safer, both in risk of death while obtaining your immunity, and risk of infecting others while obtaining your immunity.

What I disagreed with originally is that one person said, "you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection."
And that is definitely NOT the case.
The vaccine immunity does NOT give you a better immunity from infection.
Never has vaccine immunity been more effective than recovery immunity.
I stand by all I've said.

Then restate what you said, because it is not at all clear.
The reality is there are 2 reasons to get the vaccine.
One is the vaccine is less risky than getting covid-19 and recovering.
Two is that you won't be risking infecting others while you get vaccine immunity, while you will be risking infecting others while you get recovery immunity.
But anyone who thinks there is a third reason, that vaccine immunity is better, is just badly misinformed.
Recovery immunity is much stronger and works better on all variants.
Overall, getting the vaccines is for the purpose of protecting oneself, as well as others from Covid-19.
Well.., I did get the vaccines, and if you don't like it, tough.
 

Rigby5

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
In this case, yeh!

Definitely NOT the case.
Natural immunity from recovery is ALWAYS better, faster, and stronger than vaccination immunity.
The only reason to go with vaccination immunity over recovery immunity is that recovery immunity had more risks.
Not just more risk of death, but more risk of infecting others.
A vaccine won't cause you to infect others.
I disagree with you here. It's a known fact that vaccines have saved many lives. Recovery immunity provides even more risks with Covid-19, because it's much more deadly, as well as being more contagious, plus it does permanent damage by killing off the lung tissue, as well. You've got a problem with my having gotten the vaccines and providing myself with protection--tough s**t.

You need to work on your reading.
Clearly I wrote that vaccines were safer, both in risk of death while obtaining your immunity, and risk of infecting others while obtaining your immunity.

What I disagreed with originally is that one person said, "you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection."
And that is definitely NOT the case.
The vaccine immunity does NOT give you a better immunity from infection.
Never has vaccine immunity been more effective than recovery immunity.
I stand by all I've said.

Then restate what you said, because it is not at all clear.
The reality is there are 2 reasons to get the vaccine.
One is the vaccine is less risky than getting covid-19 and recovering.
Two is that you won't be risking infecting others while you get vaccine immunity, while you will be risking infecting others while you get recovery immunity.
But anyone who thinks there is a third reason, that vaccine immunity is better, is just badly misinformed.
Recovery immunity is much stronger and works better on all variants.
Overall, getting the vaccines is for the purpose of protecting oneself, as well as others from Covid-19.

Purpose is irrelevant.
The question is which provides the stronger protection, recovery from the real virus or just the fake vaccine?
And NEVER have vaccines gotten close to be as effective of protection as recovery from the real virus.
That always works.
Vaccines have a much lower success %.
 

meaner gene

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Vaccines are trying to play a trick on the immune system, and it does not always work well because each immune system is slightly different.
With the actual virus, there are so many different aspects the immune system can trigger on, that success is vastly higher.
The only down side is that risk then is also higher.
Natural infection is highly variable. You could have an infection just above threshold or just below severe reaction, with power recovery levels of immunity being commensurate with the initial viral load.

The vaccine supplies a known viral load, that could be several times the average infection.
 
OP
EvMetro

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.
 

meaner gene

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The solution is simply to get enough people vaccinated to eliminate reproduction of the virus, making it unavailable to infect the children.
This is the most fucking retarded shit I've ever read....And that covers a lot of retarded shit.

Re-pubescent children are the LEAST VULNERABLE to the virus...The vax doesn't change that.
Think about it. Right now children are maybe 1% of the hospitalizations. But that's when adults were infected and hospitalized at 1,000 times their rate. But now the bulk of adults will be vaccinated, which cuts their rate dramatically. But the children how become the kindling that keeps the flames going, and their numbers start to become significant. The unvaccinated adults become the underlying base level of infection.
 

Rigby5

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Vaccines are trying to play a trick on the immune system, and it does not always work well because each immune system is slightly different.
With the actual virus, there are so many different aspects the immune system can trigger on, that success is vastly higher.
The only down side is that risk then is also higher.
Natural infection is highly variable. You could have an infection just above threshold or just below severe reaction, with power recovery levels of immunity being commensurate with the initial viral load.

The vaccine supplies a known viral load, that could be several times the average infection.

Totally wrong.
There is no such thing as an infection threshold for a real virus infection.
Any infection at all is going to harm some cells and they are going to send out exosomes warning for help.
The degree of infection does not at all matter.
The whole point of the immune response is to prevent the virus from reaching any sort of threshold.

With vaccines, there is no viral load at all.
There is no virus at all.
There are no dying cells, no exosomes, etc.
The response to any vaccine is only a tiny fraction of that of a real infection response.

The point of vaccines is not at all that they are more effective. They aren't.
It is just that they are safer.
 

Oddball

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The solution is simply to get enough people vaccinated to eliminate reproduction of the virus, making it unavailable to infect the children.
This is the most fucking retarded shit I've ever read....And that covers a lot of retarded shit.

Re-pubescent children are the LEAST VULNERABLE to the virus...The vax doesn't change that.
Think about it. Right now children are maybe 1% of the hospitalizations. But that's when adults were infected and hospitalized at 1,000 times their rate. But now the bulk of adults will be vaccinated, which cuts their rate dramatically. But the children how become the kindling that keeps the flames going, and their numbers start to become significant. The unvaccinated adults become the underlying base level of infection.
I don't need to know basic algebra to see that your math is totally fucked up.

You can't be this stupid by accident...You are a Jacobin bot asshole.
 

meaner gene

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Vaccine is not okayed for children, not because the vaccine puts them more at risk than adults.
The reason they don't want children getting the vaccine is because they don't need it.
Wrong. This is like general aviation vs commercial aviation. Before, the bulk of deaths from air travel was from commercial aviation, the big passenger planes. With the small general aviation aircraft resulting in just a fraction of the commercial deaths each year, hence not as big a concern.

Go forward two decades, and commercial aircraft have become so safe, that we've gone years between fatal crashes, and now general aviation is the bulk of air fatalities.

In that same year, 1,474 accidents were reported involving general aviation aircraft. NTSB statistics from 2013 reveal that in contrast to the safety record of commercial airplanes, small private planes average five accidents per day, accounting for nearly 500 American deaths in small planes each year.

Meanwhile commercial flights had under 300 fatalities.
 

meaner gene

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Wrong.
Your immune response has NOTHING at all to do with actual viral load.
This proves you know nothing about it.


It is not known how many infections are dealt with solely by the nonadaptive mechanisms of innate immunity discussed in Chapter 2; this is because such infections are eliminated early and produce little in the way of symptoms or pathology.

Adaptive immunity is triggered when an infection eludes the innate defense mechanisms and generates a threshold dose of antigen (see Fig. 10.1). This antigen then initiates an adaptive immune response, which becomes effective only after several days, the time required for antigen- specific T cells and B cells to locate their specific foreign antigen, to proliferate, and to differentiate into armed effector cells.
 

Rigby5

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The solution is simply to get enough people vaccinated to eliminate reproduction of the virus, making it unavailable to infect the children.
This is the most fucking retarded shit I've ever read....And that covers a lot of retarded shit.

Re-pubescent children are the LEAST VULNERABLE to the virus...The vax doesn't change that.
Think about it. Right now children are maybe 1% of the hospitalizations. But that's when adults were infected and hospitalized at 1,000 times their rate. But now the bulk of adults will be vaccinated, which cuts their rate dramatically. But the children how become the kindling that keeps the flames going, and their numbers start to become significant. The unvaccinated adults become the underlying base level of infection.
NO!
Children are NOT 1% of the current hospitalization.
They are more like 0.0001% of the hospitalizations.
There are only about 30 children hospitalized from covid-19 in the entire country.
You do not have to vaccinate children because they are INHERENTLY immune.
Their rate of infection is NOT going to increase.
They are not going to get infected.
They are not to be vaccinated because that would be pointless and add risk for no reason.
You would end up killing MORE children if you started vaccinating them, because they are NOT at risk from the virus, at all, essentially.
But they ARE more at risk to the vaccine then adults are.
They get these weird allergic inflammation reactions with red skin, red eyes, etc.
 

Rigby5

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Wrong.
Your immune response has NOTHING at all to do with actual viral load.
This proves you know nothing about it.


It is not known how many infections are dealt with solely by the nonadaptive mechanisms of innate immunity discussed in Chapter 2; this is because such infections are eliminated early and produce little in the way of symptoms or pathology.

Adaptive immunity is triggered when an infection eludes the innate defense mechanisms and generates a threshold dose of antigen (see Fig. 10.1). This antigen then initiates an adaptive immune response, which becomes effective only after several days, the time required for antigen- specific T cells and B cells to locate their specific foreign antigen, to proliferate, and to differentiate into armed effector cells.

Interesting read, but totally and completely irrelevant to covid-19.
Covid-19 does not generate antigens that end up in the blood stream.
So that has nothing to do with how the body detects and fights covid-19.
What does happen is that covid-19 can't exist in the blood stream at all, and instead lives only in air passages, like lungs and sinuses.
And when it infects a cell, the cell sends out exosomes to warn the immune system.
The immune system send out antibodies that look for, find, and then destroy the virus.
Since the immune system can't detect infection in air passages, it always results in a huge infection before the immune system is able to do anything.
There is no way a vaccine can even come close to this.
And if it did, it would risk death as much as covid-19 does.
 

Bob Blaylock

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If I were to be allowed only one source for information, it would be the Unites States government…

EveryoneLaughingAtYou.png
 

Rigby5

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If I were to be allowed only one source for information, it would be the Unites States government…

View attachment 500288

Depends on what part of the US government.
I would trust the post office and census bureau, but not the CIA telling us about Iraqi WMD or the Domino Theory in IndoChina.
Even the IRS is pretty suspect.
And the whole TSA, DEA, and BATF should all be in jail.
 

Rigby5

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Vaccine is not okayed for children, not because the vaccine puts them more at risk than adults.
The reason they don't want children getting the vaccine is because they don't need it.
Wrong. This is like general aviation vs commercial aviation. Before, the bulk of deaths from air travel was from commercial aviation, the big passenger planes. With the small general aviation aircraft resulting in just a fraction of the commercial deaths each year, hence not as big a concern.

Go forward two decades, and commercial aircraft have become so safe, that we've gone years between fatal crashes, and now general aviation is the bulk of air fatalities.

In that same year, 1,474 accidents were reported involving general aviation aircraft. NTSB statistics from 2013 reveal that in contrast to the safety record of commercial airplanes, small private planes average five accidents per day, accounting for nearly 500 American deaths in small planes each year.

Meanwhile commercial flights had under 300 fatalities.

No, you still do not have a feel for how safe children are.
For example, the covid death total in the US currently is around 600,000.
Do you now how many of those have been children?
The answer is only 300.
Which means that no matter how other age groups may decrease, children will NEVER become a significant group.
The elderly are over 400 times more at risk, and as they all either die off, recover, or get vaccinated, then as the carriers, they will then no longer be infecting any children at all, so then children deaths will drop to 0.
R0 will never be greater than 1 for children.
They will always remain inherently immune, never the source of any significant spread.
 

Anathema

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I got back about an hour ago from this morning's first action pistol shooting match of the year. I’m still not vaccinated. I didn’t wear a mask.

Two good friends and regular attendees weren’t there… they got COVID shots on Thursday and are apparently laid up in bed feeling like shit.

Case closed so far as I’m concerned
 

Flopper

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.
I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.
 
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Rigby5

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I got back about an hour ago from this morning's first action pistol shooting match of the year. I’m still not vaccinated. I didn’t wear a mask.

Two good friends and regular attendees weren’t there… they got COVID shots on Thursday and are apparently laid up in bed feeling like shit.

Case closed so far as I’m concerned

Yes, I was sick for a week after my 2nd Moderna shot.
I doubt I would have done it had I known.
 

Rigby5

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.
I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.
 

Flopper

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Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.
Care to show your math?
No math required, just read the chart.
On Jan 13, 2021, the 7 day average of daily deaths was 3579
On June 6, 2021, the 7 day average of daily deaths was 352
Today deaths are about one tenth what they were 6 months.

 

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