What would it take to get you to take the vax?

[Flopper]

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.

I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.

One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.

So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.

In this case, yeh!

Definitely NOT the case.
Natural immunity from recovery is ALWAYS better, faster, and stronger than vaccination immunity.
The only reason to go with vaccination immunity over recovery immunity is that recovery immunity had more risks.
Not just more risk of death, but more risk of infecting others.
A vaccine won't cause you to infect others.

I disagree with you here. It's a known fact that vaccines have saved many lives. Recovery immunity provides even more risks with Covid-19, because it's much more deadly, as well as being more contagious, plus it does permanent damage by killing off the lung tissue, as well. You've got a problem with my having gotten the vaccines and providing myself with protection--tough s**t.

You need to work on your reading.
Clearly I wrote that vaccines were safer, both in risk of death while obtaining your immunity, and risk of infecting others while obtaining your immunity.

What I disagreed with originally is that one person said, "you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection."
And that is definitely NOT the case.
The vaccine immunity does NOT give you a better immunity from infection.
Never has vaccine immunity been more effective than recovery immunity.

I stand by all I've said.

Then restate what you said, because it is not at all clear.
The reality is there are 2 reasons to get the vaccine.
One is the vaccine is less risky than getting covid-19 and recovering.
Two is that you won't be risking infecting others while you get vaccine immunity, while you will be risking infecting others while you get recovery immunity.
But anyone who thinks there is a third reason, that vaccine immunity is better, is just badly misinformed.
Recovery immunity is much stronger and works better on all variants.

Overall, getting the vaccines is for the purpose of protecting oneself, as well as others from Covid-19.

Purpose is irrelevant.
The question is which provides the stronger protection, recovery from the real virus or just the fake vaccine?
And NEVER have vaccines gotten close to be as effective of protection as recovery from the real virus.
That always works.
Vaccines have a much lower success %.

Fake vaccine? Oh yes, that treats the fake virus responsible for all fake deaths and the fake pandemic.

Back to real world. The vaccine works by enhancing your immune system's response so it recognizes the virus faster and elicits a better immune response. Speed is everything in fighting this virus which has a high replication rate.

No, by "fake vaccine" I only meant that it is not a real virus, but only a chemical compound designed to make the immune system think it is a real virus. All vaccines in effect are fake viruses.

And no, speed is irrelevant with covid-19 because it is not a harmful virus.
It essentially harms no one.
Since it hides in air passages, the immune system may not even discover it for a week.
The only harm comes from the the over reaction by the immune system.
And that does not seem to happen quickly.

No sure we are on the same page. mRNA vaccines teach the cells how to make a protein that triggers the immune response. The vaccine disappears from system about 7 days after the vaccination. mRNA vaccines work differently than live attenuated vaccines or Inactivated vaccines . They do not emulate the virus to produce an immune response. In most cases they are long gone from the system before the person is infected.

Don't know what you consider to be harmless but I think a virus that causes the death of 3.8 million people would qualify.

 

[Flopper]

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.

I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.

One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.

So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.

Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.

I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.

The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.

Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.

You've been going on about this for days now. Who are you trying to convince, you or me. If it is me, you might as well quit now. I don't trust the gov't, WHO, CDC or Fauci and especially not you. I have as much knowledge of the situation as you do--so run along.

I don't need convincing and you're hopeless. It's all the others who read these posts.
Just wondering, what are your trusted information sources if it's not the CDC, FDA, or National Academy of Science who are recognized as the primary clearinghouses for scientific research?

 

[Concerned American]

death of 3.8 million people would qualify.

If this was a pandemic, those numbers should have increased the global fatality rate by a like amount which didn't happen--you've been had by the globalists.

 

[Concerned American]

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.

I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.

One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.

So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.

Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.

I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.

The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.

Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.

You've been going on about this for days now. Who are you trying to convince, you or me. If it is me, you might as well quit now. I don't trust the gov't, WHO, CDC or Fauci and especially not you. I have as much knowledge of the situation as you do--so run along.

I don't need convincing and you're hopeless. It's all the others who read these posts.
Just wondering, what are your trusted information sources if it's not the CDC, FDA, or National Academy of Science who are recognized as the primary clearinghouses for scientific research?

For every person or missive that you've researched that backs your assertion there is at least one that takes the opposing view. I choose not to follow "scientists" who either contradict what they say or are found to be false, all of which have been the case with our and the Chinese gov'ts, WHO, CDC and Fauci. But, what the hey, you keep running over the same tired bs that their media feeds you and that is all you will believe. Either way, no skin off my ass.

 

[Flopper]

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.

I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.

One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.

So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.

Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.

I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.

The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.

Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.

You've been going on about this for days now. Who are you trying to convince, you or me. If it is me, you might as well quit now. I don't trust the gov't, WHO, CDC or Fauci and especially not you. I have as much knowledge of the situation as you do--so run along.

I don't need convincing and you're hopeless. It's all the others who read these posts.
Just wondering, what are your trusted information sources if it's not the CDC, FDA, or National Academy of Science who are recognized as the primary clearinghouses for scientific research?

For every person or missive that you've researched that backs your assertion there is at least one that takes the opposing view. I choose not to follow "scientists" who either contradict what they say or are found to be false, all of which have been the case with our and the Chinese gov'ts, WHO, CDC and Fauci. But, what the hey, you keep running over the same tired bs that their media feeds you and that is all you will believe. Either way, no skin off my ass.

So we know what information sources you don't trust but what sources do you trust.

 

[Concerned American]

Lif

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.

I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.

One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.

So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.

Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.

I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.

The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.

Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.

You've been going on about this for days now. Who are you trying to convince, you or me. If it is me, you might as well quit now. I don't trust the gov't, WHO, CDC or Fauci and especially not you. I have as much knowledge of the situation as you do--so run along.

I don't need convincing and you're hopeless. It's all the others who read these posts.
Just wondering, what are your trusted information sources if it's not the CDC, FDA, or National Academy of Science who are recognized as the primary clearinghouses for scientific research?

For every person or missive that you've researched that backs your assertion there is at least one that takes the opposing view. I choose not to follow "scientists" who either contradict what they say or are found to be false, all of which have been the case with our and the Chinese gov'ts, WHO, CDC and Fauci. But, what the hey, you keep running over the same tired bs that their media feeds you and that is all you will believe. Either way, no skin off my ass.

So we know what information sources you don't trust but what sources do you trust.

Life, personal observation and common sense.

 

[Flopper]

Lif

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.

I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.

One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.

So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.

Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.

I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.

The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.

Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.

You've been going on about this for days now. Who are you trying to convince, you or me. If it is me, you might as well quit now. I don't trust the gov't, WHO, CDC or Fauci and especially not you. I have as much knowledge of the situation as you do--so run along.

I don't need convincing and you're hopeless. It's all the others who read these posts.
Just wondering, what are your trusted information sources if it's not the CDC, FDA, or National Academy of Science who are recognized as the primary clearinghouses for scientific research?

For every person or missive that you've researched that backs your assertion there is at least one that takes the opposing view. I choose not to follow "scientists" who either contradict what they say or are found to be false, all of which have been the case with our and the Chinese gov'ts, WHO, CDC and Fauci. But, what the hey, you keep running over the same tired bs that their media feeds you and that is all you will believe. Either way, no skin off my ass.

So we know what information sources you don't trust but what sources do you trust.

Life, personal observation and common sense.

In other words you have no trusted information sources. That explains your posts.

 

[Concerned American]

Lif

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.

I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.

One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.

So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.

Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.

I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.

The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.

Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.

You've been going on about this for days now. Who are you trying to convince, you or me. If it is me, you might as well quit now. I don't trust the gov't, WHO, CDC or Fauci and especially not you. I have as much knowledge of the situation as you do--so run along.

I don't need convincing and you're hopeless. It's all the others who read these posts.
Just wondering, what are your trusted information sources if it's not the CDC, FDA, or National Academy of Science who are recognized as the primary clearinghouses for scientific research?

For every person or missive that you've researched that backs your assertion there is at least one that takes the opposing view. I choose not to follow "scientists" who either contradict what they say or are found to be false, all of which have been the case with our and the Chinese gov'ts, WHO, CDC and Fauci. But, what the hey, you keep running over the same tired bs that their media feeds you and that is all you will believe. Either way, no skin off my ass.

So we know what information sources you don't trust but what sources do you trust.

Life, personal observation and common sense.

In other words you have no trusted information sources. That explains your posts.

Quite the opposite, I trust vetted, tested and proven SCIENTIFIC FACT. No I do not roll over for garbage because some puppet bureaucrat says "follow the science." That's biggest bs line I have ever heard from someone who is trying to promote science. It has no relation to science.

 

[Flopper]

Lif

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.

I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.

One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.

So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.

Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.

I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.

The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.

Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.

You've been going on about this for days now. Who are you trying to convince, you or me. If it is me, you might as well quit now. I don't trust the gov't, WHO, CDC or Fauci and especially not you. I have as much knowledge of the situation as you do--so run along.

I don't need convincing and you're hopeless. It's all the others who read these posts.
Just wondering, what are your trusted information sources if it's not the CDC, FDA, or National Academy of Science who are recognized as the primary clearinghouses for scientific research?

For every person or missive that you've researched that backs your assertion there is at least one that takes the opposing view. I choose not to follow "scientists" who either contradict what they say or are found to be false, all of which have been the case with our and the Chinese gov'ts, WHO, CDC and Fauci. But, what the hey, you keep running over the same tired bs that their media feeds you and that is all you will believe. Either way, no skin off my ass.

So we know what information sources you don't trust but what sources do you trust.

Life, personal observation and common sense.

In other words you have no trusted information sources. That explains your posts.

Quite the opposite, I trust vetted, tested and proven SCIENTIFIC FACT. No I do not roll over for garbage because some puppet bureaucrat says "follow the science." That's biggest bs line I have ever heard from someone who is trying to promote science. It has no relation to science.

If you can't state a trusted source of information you base your posts on, then how do you expect anyone to believe.

 

[Concerned American]

Lif

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.

I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.

One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.

So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.

Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.

I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.

The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.

Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.

You've been going on about this for days now. Who are you trying to convince, you or me. If it is me, you might as well quit now. I don't trust the gov't, WHO, CDC or Fauci and especially not you. I have as much knowledge of the situation as you do--so run along.

I don't need convincing and you're hopeless. It's all the others who read these posts.
Just wondering, what are your trusted information sources if it's not the CDC, FDA, or National Academy of Science who are recognized as the primary clearinghouses for scientific research?

For every person or missive that you've researched that backs your assertion there is at least one that takes the opposing view. I choose not to follow "scientists" who either contradict what they say or are found to be false, all of which have been the case with our and the Chinese gov'ts, WHO, CDC and Fauci. But, what the hey, you keep running over the same tired bs that their media feeds you and that is all you will believe. Either way, no skin off my ass.

So we know what information sources you don't trust but what sources do you trust.

Life, personal observation and common sense.

In other words you have no trusted information sources. That explains your posts.

Quite the opposite, I trust vetted, tested and proven SCIENTIFIC FACT. No I do not roll over for garbage because some puppet bureaucrat says "follow the science." That's biggest bs line I have ever heard from someone who is trying to promote science. It has no relation to science.

If you can't state a trusted source of information you base your posts on, then how do you expect anyone to believe.

I'm not here to make you believe anything. You seem to be in the business of trying to influence people here. Do you think you are a trusted source of information? I've watched you post about this virus and cannot recall you citing sources. Each supposed fact you espouse should be accompanied by a source if you want people to believe you. I am no more than an entity typing to you from afar. Anyone that uses a message board to make health decisions deserves what they get. I've told you before you be you and I'll be me.

 

[sartre play]

Hate to see more people die, the numbers are still not small enough to feel safe in most situations, The old saying you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink applies.

 

[danielpalos]

 

[Burgermeister]

I'd consider the new Novavax after a normal FDA approval process. It doesn't mess with your genetic system and is more of a traditional vaccine - uses an inert protein that looks like the Covid virus and triggers and immune response.

 

[bendog]

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

A shot of cheap vodka and a camel straight. Ok slip the cigarette. I'm a cheap date.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Nothing.

yep,what it would take to get ME to take is is the cops would have to tackle me and force it into my body,.thats the ONLY way i would EVER take it.

 

[EvMetro]

I could never volunteer for the jab with the way all negative information about it is being suppressed.

 

[danielpalos]

I could never volunteer for the jab with the way all negative information about it is being suppressed.

I have already had both.

 

[Magnus]

Nothing. There is no incentive you could provide me to get me to take those shots.

Especially since my employer just told us that we are being “permanently” classified as Fkex Workers who are not required to report to an office on a regular basis.

Thank you. And please encourage all other right-wingers to avoid the shots. Don't wear masks and please please congregate in right-wing gatherings as much as possible. The sooner the herd is culled, the better for America & the world.

Once again, thank you!

 

[Anathema]

Thank you. And please encourage all other right-wingers to avoid the shots. Don't wear masks and please please congregate in right-wing gatherings as much as possible. The sooner the herd is culled, the better for America & the world

I encourage all others to follow the same things I’ve been doing. I spent most of the day today with friends in an enclosed environment. Tomorrow we go outdoors in the morning before the barbecue and food come out in the afternoon. Probably 40+ of us. That should make you happy.

 

[Rigby5]

I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?

Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.

I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.

One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.

So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.

In this case, yeh!

Definitely NOT the case.
Natural immunity from recovery is ALWAYS better, faster, and stronger than vaccination immunity.
The only reason to go with vaccination immunity over recovery immunity is that recovery immunity had more risks.
Not just more risk of death, but more risk of infecting others.
A vaccine won't cause you to infect others.

I disagree with you here. It's a known fact that vaccines have saved many lives. Recovery immunity provides even more risks with Covid-19, because it's much more deadly, as well as being more contagious, plus it does permanent damage by killing off the lung tissue, as well. You've got a problem with my having gotten the vaccines and providing myself with protection--tough s**t.

You need to work on your reading.
Clearly I wrote that vaccines were safer, both in risk of death while obtaining your immunity, and risk of infecting others while obtaining your immunity.

What I disagreed with originally is that one person said, "you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection."
And that is definitely NOT the case.
The vaccine immunity does NOT give you a better immunity from infection.
Never has vaccine immunity been more effective than recovery immunity.

I stand by all I've said.

Then restate what you said, because it is not at all clear.
The reality is there are 2 reasons to get the vaccine.
One is the vaccine is less risky than getting covid-19 and recovering.
Two is that you won't be risking infecting others while you get vaccine immunity, while you will be risking infecting others while you get recovery immunity.
But anyone who thinks there is a third reason, that vaccine immunity is better, is just badly misinformed.
Recovery immunity is much stronger and works better on all variants.

Overall, getting the vaccines is for the purpose of protecting oneself, as well as others from Covid-19.

Purpose is irrelevant.
The question is which provides the stronger protection, recovery from the real virus or just the fake vaccine?
And NEVER have vaccines gotten close to be as effective of protection as recovery from the real virus.
That always works.
Vaccines have a much lower success %.

Fake vaccine? Oh yes, that treats the fake virus responsible for all fake deaths and the fake pandemic.

Back to real world. The vaccine works by enhancing your immune system's response so it recognizes the virus faster and elicits a better immune response. Speed is everything in fighting this virus which has a high replication rate.

No, by "fake vaccine" I only meant that it is not a real virus, but only a chemical compound designed to make the immune system think it is a real virus. All vaccines in effect are fake viruses.

And no, speed is irrelevant with covid-19 because it is not a harmful virus.
It essentially harms no one.
Since it hides in air passages, the immune system may not even discover it for a week.
The only harm comes from the the over reaction by the immune system.
And that does not seem to happen quickly.

No sure we are on the same page. mRNA vaccines teach the cells how to make a protein that triggers the immune response. The vaccine disappears from system about 7 days after the vaccination. mRNA vaccines work differently than live attenuated vaccines or Inactivated vaccines . They do not emulate the virus to produce an immune response. In most cases they are long gone from the system before the person is infected.

Don't know what you consider to be harmless but I think a virus that causes the death of 3.8 million people would qualify.

No, that is not at all how the mRNA vaccines work.
Traditional vaccines work with a dead or almost dead virus.
The way mRNA vaccines work is they manufacture a fake virus dummy and inject that.
The fake virus dummy has to have some aspect of the real virus, so that the immune system will recognize that, attack it, and remember what to trigger on in the future.
That trigger aspect is the coronavirus spike.
They use mRNA to manufacture and grow the fake corona spike protein on the larger fake virus molecule.

The mRNA does not teach the cells how to make a protein that trigger an immune response.
The mRNA process is entirely for growing the fake virus dummy in the vat.
Any cell that would make one of these trigger proteins would be attacked and destroyed by the immune system, so you would never want that process to happen inside the body.
It would be way too dangerous.

But I do agree the fake virus dummy is long gone before the person is infected and the immune system responds the way the fake dummy virus trained it to respond.

The covid-19 virus killed no one.
The deaths occurred because the immune system is unfamiliar with the novel virus, and over responds.
The immune system ends up macerating the lungs, filling them with fluid until the person can't breath, and sending thousands of little blood clots into the blood stream.
Every death was caused by the over active immune system, the cytokine storm.