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What would it take to get you to take the vax?

Flopper

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.
I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.
The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf
 
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Concerned American

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.
I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.
The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response. https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf
From first onset to complete recovery was about two weeks for me. I don't think that needle would be any more effective than the immunity I already have.
 

Flopper

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I am just stating facts. Hold outs now are not likely to see the light. For political reasons or simple because government is pushing it, or just plain studiedly, they not going to get vaccinated. Young people are the targets with approval for youngers people getting vaccinating and colleges requiring vaccines it will bring deaths significantly down from 400 a day. 6 mouths ago we running about 3,000 a day. We have made a lot of progress.
Actually we need to change the rhetoric. It used to be we needed to wear masks and socially distance, and get the vaccine in order to protect the elderly, and those with pre-existing conditions. Now because the vaccine isn't O.K.'d for children under 12, they have become the most vulnerable. They will soon be the one's filling emergency rooms.

The solution is simply to get enough people vaccinated to eliminate reproduction of the virus, making it unavailable to infect the children.
Yep
 

Flopper

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.
I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.
The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response. https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf
From first onset to complete recovery was about two weeks for me. I don't think that needle would be any more effective than the immunity I already have.
Maybe. There are so many variables, the viral load you got, the strain of the virus, and of course how effective your immunity system is. However, regardless of the above variables, the vaccine will create a must stronger and faster immune response in about 95% of the population. With the vaccine you might not have even noticed the symptoms. One thing is for sure, since we started inoculations in late Dec. deaths in the US do to Covid are down about 90% from 3,000 a day to 300 a day. Where we go from here is anybody's guess. We are opening up the country, dropping masks, and social distancing, new strains are entering the US, but the number vaccinated is rising. Pfizer has announced that their vaccine after 2 doses is 88% effective the new strain D that is now in the US. With one dose it is only 33% effective. Moderna will probably be very close to Pfizer. Johnson & Johnson with an efficiency of 66% has not announced.
 
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Rigby5

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.
I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.
The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.
 
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EvMetro

EvMetro

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Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.
Care to show your math?
No math required, just read the chart.
On Jan 13, 2021, the 7 day average of daily deaths was 3579
On June 6, 2021, the 7 day average of daily deaths was 352
Today deaths are about one tenth what they were 6 months.

Your math is worthless if it is based on manipulated counts. You can't mix in motorcycle accidents and heart attacks.
 

Rigby5

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I am just stating facts. Hold outs now are not likely to see the light. For political reasons or simple because government is pushing it, or just plain studiedly, they not going to get vaccinated. Young people are the targets with approval for youngers people getting vaccinating and colleges requiring vaccines it will bring deaths significantly down from 400 a day. 6 mouths ago we running about 3,000 a day. We have made a lot of progress.
Actually we need to change the rhetoric. It used to be we needed to wear masks and socially distance, and get the vaccine in order to protect the elderly, and those with pre-existing conditions. Now because the vaccine isn't O.K.'d for children under 12, they have become the most vulnerable. They will soon be the one's filling emergency rooms.

The solution is simply to get enough people vaccinated to eliminate reproduction of the virus, making it unavailable to infect the children.
Yep

Nope.
Children are already inherently immune the least of our concern.
It is NOT that the vaccine is not approved for children.
The vaccines actually are not approved for anyone.
But vaccinating children would be criminal because the vaccine would pose a greater risk to children than the virus, because the virus essentially poses no risk to children at all.
Again, just check the stats.
Of all those 600,000 dead in the US from covid-19, only 300 are under 17 years of age.
The young obviously have inherent immunity far better than any vaccine could ever give.
 

Bob Blaylock

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Your math is worthless if it is based on manipulated counts. You can't mix in motorcycle accidents and heart attacks.

You can if your purpose is to deceive and frighten a populace, in order to make them easier and more compliant prey for tyrants and criminals who wish to use a fake crisis to seize and abuse power.
 

Oddball

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Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.
Care to show your math?
No math required, just read the chart.
On Jan 13, 2021, the 7 day average of daily deaths was 3579
On June 6, 2021, the 7 day average of daily deaths was 352
Today deaths are about one tenth what they were 6 months.

Deliberately inflated...Scarf queen Brix even admitted that people who died while infected were being counted as dying from it.
 

Flopper

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
In this case, yeh!

Definitely NOT the case.
Natural immunity from recovery is ALWAYS better, faster, and stronger than vaccination immunity.
The only reason to go with vaccination immunity over recovery immunity is that recovery immunity had more risks.
Not just more risk of death, but more risk of infecting others.
A vaccine won't cause you to infect others.
I disagree with you here. It's a known fact that vaccines have saved many lives. Recovery immunity provides even more risks with Covid-19, because it's much more deadly, as well as being more contagious, plus it does permanent damage by killing off the lung tissue, as well. You've got a problem with my having gotten the vaccines and providing myself with protection--tough s**t.

You need to work on your reading.
Clearly I wrote that vaccines were safer, both in risk of death while obtaining your immunity, and risk of infecting others while obtaining your immunity.

What I disagreed with originally is that one person said, "you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection."
And that is definitely NOT the case.
The vaccine immunity does NOT give you a better immunity from infection.
Never has vaccine immunity been more effective than recovery immunity.
I stand by all I've said.

Then restate what you said, because it is not at all clear.
The reality is there are 2 reasons to get the vaccine.
One is the vaccine is less risky than getting covid-19 and recovering.
Two is that you won't be risking infecting others while you get vaccine immunity, while you will be risking infecting others while you get recovery immunity.
But anyone who thinks there is a third reason, that vaccine immunity is better, is just badly misinformed.
Recovery immunity is much stronger and works better on all variants.
Overall, getting the vaccines is for the purpose of protecting oneself, as well as others from Covid-19.

Purpose is irrelevant.
The question is which provides the stronger protection, recovery from the real virus or just the fake vaccine?
And NEVER have vaccines gotten close to be as effective of protection as recovery from the real virus.
That always works.
Vaccines have a much lower success %.
Fake vaccine? Oh yes, that treats the fake virus responsible for all fake deaths and the fake pandemic.

Back to real world. The vaccine works by enhancing your immune system's response so it recognizes the virus faster and elicits a better immune response. Speed is everything in fighting this virus which has a high replication rate.
 

Flopper

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Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.
Care to show your math?
No math required, just read the chart.
On Jan 13, 2021, the 7 day average of daily deaths was 3579
On June 6, 2021, the 7 day average of daily deaths was 352
Today deaths are about one tenth what they were 6 months.

Deliberately inflated...Scarf queen Brix even admitted that people who died while infected were being counted as dying from it.
If January deaths are inflated then so are the June deaths because there has been no change in covid death reporting over the last 6 months. So either way you cut, corvid deaths are one tenth of what they were 6 months ago. The cause just might be the increase in sunspots, space aliens medicating the atmosphere, decrease in cosmic rays, or just maybe 307 million covid vaccines given.
 

Oddball

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Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.
Care to show your math?
No math required, just read the chart.
On Jan 13, 2021, the 7 day average of daily deaths was 3579
On June 6, 2021, the 7 day average of daily deaths was 352
Today deaths are about one tenth what they were 6 months.

Deliberately inflated...Scarf queen Brix even admitted that people who died while infected were being counted as dying from it.
If January deaths are inflated then so are the June deaths because there has been no change in covid death reporting over the last 6 months. So either way you cut, corvid deaths are one tenth of what they were 6 months ago. The cause just might be the increase in sunspots, space aliens medicating the atmosphere, decrease in cosmic rays, or just maybe 307 million covid vaccines given.
All death numbers are inflated....Period.
 

Flopper

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.
I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.
The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.
Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.
 

Rigby5

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
In this case, yeh!

Definitely NOT the case.
Natural immunity from recovery is ALWAYS better, faster, and stronger than vaccination immunity.
The only reason to go with vaccination immunity over recovery immunity is that recovery immunity had more risks.
Not just more risk of death, but more risk of infecting others.
A vaccine won't cause you to infect others.
I disagree with you here. It's a known fact that vaccines have saved many lives. Recovery immunity provides even more risks with Covid-19, because it's much more deadly, as well as being more contagious, plus it does permanent damage by killing off the lung tissue, as well. You've got a problem with my having gotten the vaccines and providing myself with protection--tough s**t.

You need to work on your reading.
Clearly I wrote that vaccines were safer, both in risk of death while obtaining your immunity, and risk of infecting others while obtaining your immunity.

What I disagreed with originally is that one person said, "you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection."
And that is definitely NOT the case.
The vaccine immunity does NOT give you a better immunity from infection.
Never has vaccine immunity been more effective than recovery immunity.
I stand by all I've said.

Then restate what you said, because it is not at all clear.
The reality is there are 2 reasons to get the vaccine.
One is the vaccine is less risky than getting covid-19 and recovering.
Two is that you won't be risking infecting others while you get vaccine immunity, while you will be risking infecting others while you get recovery immunity.
But anyone who thinks there is a third reason, that vaccine immunity is better, is just badly misinformed.
Recovery immunity is much stronger and works better on all variants.
Overall, getting the vaccines is for the purpose of protecting oneself, as well as others from Covid-19.

Purpose is irrelevant.
The question is which provides the stronger protection, recovery from the real virus or just the fake vaccine?
And NEVER have vaccines gotten close to be as effective of protection as recovery from the real virus.
That always works.
Vaccines have a much lower success %.
Fake vaccine? Oh yes, that treats the fake virus responsible for all fake deaths and the fake pandemic.

Back to real world. The vaccine works by enhancing your immune system's response so it recognizes the virus faster and elicits a better immune response. Speed is everything in fighting this virus which has a high replication rate.

No, by "fake vaccine" I only meant that it is not a real virus, but only a chemical compound designed to make the immune system think it is a real virus. All vaccines in effect are fake viruses.

And no, speed is irrelevant with covid-19 because it is not a harmful virus.
It essentially harms no one.
Since it hides in air passages, the immune system may not even discover it for a week.
The only harm comes from the the over reaction by the immune system.
And that does not seem to happen quickly.
 

Rigby5

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.
I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.
The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.
Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.

Wrong.
Cancer does a massive invasive destruction of cell tissue.
Covid-19 does not.
Covid-19 does NOT at all cause the lungs to swell.
What happens is the immune system over reacts, and starts what is known as a cytokine storm, that filled the lungs with fluid, in order to destroy pathogens and damaged cells, that do not exist.
The pneumonia is caused entirely by the immune system over reaction, not the virus.
NONE have ever died of covid-19.
It is ONLY the immune system over reaction that has ever killed anyone.

Again, the speed of the immune system response is totally irrelevant since the virus does insignificant damage.
The purpose of the vaccine is to train the immune system to not over react.
That is all that is necessary in order to prevent deaths.
 
OP
EvMetro

EvMetro

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Back to real world. The vaccine works by enhancing your immune system's response so it recognizes the virus faster and elicits a better immune response.
The idea with these fake RNA injections is the fake RNA is used to trick the body into creating the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, which triggers your immune system to produce antibodies in response. Forever. No way to stop it. When covid 2024 strikes and the new 2024 fake RNA injections are being rolled out, you will still be churning out the spike proteins and antibodies from the current fake RNA injections.
 

Concerned American

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I'd be willing to take the covid vaccine if I could have access to all the negative information and data that has been suppressed, and compare it to all the positive information that is available. If I still felt like it was a wise choice after seeing all the information that has been kept from me, I'd get the shot.


What would it take to get YOU to take the shot?
Well, I'll say this: I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine back at the end of February and again at the end of March of 2021, and I'm more than glad of it. I'd rather take the vaccine and have afew temporary side affects than to end up hospitalized, possibly intubated, and even dying from a horrible disease, namely Covid-19.
I took the other route, got the virus in Jan. Over it completely two weeks later--have had much worse flu. I feel great. I'll stick with my immune system.
One has to bear in mind that even though one has been infected with the Covid-19 virus, they can still be re-infected. It's safer to get the vaccine if possible (some people can't, due to immunocompromised systems.) than to risk getting a really, really horrible case of the Covid-19.
So you figure that the spike proteins that you are having to be taught to make are stronger than the ones my body produces as a result of actual infection. OK, whatever you want to believe.
Yes. Without the vaccines, covid-19 death rates were about 3,000 a day 6 months ago. Today, they are running 400 a day. The vaccines work as expected. The vaccines effectively teaches cells to recognize the virus faster and begin producing antibodies. The body's ability to respond to the virus rapidly is difference between life and death for many people.

The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery.
The 2 advantages of the vaccine immunity over recovery immunity are that vaccines are only a tiny fraction of the lethality risk of the actual virus, and when you get vaccinated it does not risk spread, while recovery immunity does require you to risk spread while you have not yet recovered.
I question your first statement, "The vaccine is not more effective than the immunity from recovery." I'm not saying your statement is not true because the details of the immune response after infection and recovery and how long it lasts have been unclear. Many re-infections have been reported. We also don't know how long immunity from the vaccines or natural immunity from being infected will last. We won't get answers to these question backed up by solid scientific studies for years. By that time, only medical researchers will care.

However, we do know how the vaccines work. They teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and elicit an immune response. Without the vaccine, it can take weeks for the body to develop a sufficient immune response and for many people that's too late.

Yes there is such variety of opinion, nothing is clear cut.

But in general, immunity, either from recovery or vaccination, usually is about life long. The exceptions are rare, like pertussis and tetanus.
Re-infection is not really unclear, but just totally misunderstood. No immunity can ever reduce re-infection, in the least.
Immunity means your body responds to calls for help from cells under attack, that send out exosomes.
So your immune system can't even know and start building antibodies to find and attack the infection, until AFTER you have already been infected. So then clearly immunity can never prevent re-infection at all, ever. All immunity can ever do is reduce symptoms.
When vaccines teach immune response, they save time from an naïve immune system that has to try different methods of virus removal, but recovered immune systems are even better at it. That is because vaccines pick one particular virus marker and focus only on that And that is risky because variants can and will then be selected for them hiding that marker better. While recovery immunity will not focus on just one marker, so can't be so easily fooled by natural selections on future hybrids.

However, I disagree with the idea that taking a week for the immune system to develop an appropriate immune response is too long.
No one is dying in a week. In fact, the virus itself is killing no one. All the deaths are taking weeks or even months, and often long after the virus is totally gone. That is because what is deadly is not the virus, but the over reaction by the immune system. That actually however is even more reason to get vaccinated, because in theory that should be more likely to prevent the deadly over reaction by the immune system. What vaccines can do is reduce inappropriate immune responses. Like a fever, which is useless against a virus evolved to survive the heat of a bat in flight.
The time it takes the body to develop a response to the virus is critical to survival because this virus's replication rate is fast, about 10 hrs. That means 100,000 virus particles will be 10 million in just over 3 days and billions in less than a week. It is over 3 times faster than SARS-CoV and strain D is believed to be even faster. mRNA vaccines teach the cells to quickly recognize the virus and produce a much faster response than the body's natural response.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/57309.pdf

Except that the virus is essentially benign.
It is not the virus that harms anyone, so the degree of virus reproduction is hardly relevant.

The people who have died from a covid-19 infection almost all died weeks AFTER the virus was already gone.
The virus did not kill them.
Instead it was the over reaction by the immune system, the cytokine storm, that killed them.

However, that can make a vaccine even more useful, since it can reduce the immune system over reaction.

But there is no way an artificial response from a vaccine can ever be faster than the naturally learned response of the immune system to the real virus. We will never completely understand the immune system, how it works, and how to artificially make a virus response that is better than the natural response.

By the way, the "eLife Science Forum" article was not very good.
It talked about "mutation rate" when in reality is should be using the term "rate of variation" instead.
That is because mutations are almost never viable, and not relevant to the rate of genetic drift.
For humans, it takes takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years for the evolution of significant variations. And while viruses have more like a 10 day reproductive generational cycle instead of 20 years of humans, that is only about 700 times faster.
So mutations are insignificant over periods as short as years. So we are not seeing mutations of covid-19. Instead we are seeing already existing variants that are being brought out by natural selection.
Saying the virus doesn't harm people is like saying lung cancer doesn't hurt you. It's the respiratory failure, pneumonia, shortage of oxygen, and heart failure that kills you which is due to the Lung cancers. Covid-19 cause the lungs to swell, reducing oxygen transfer which eventually develops into pneumonia which takes advantage of the weaken state of the patient adding even bigger problems. The immune system is slow to produce antibodies to stop replication but when if finally does, it over reacts creating even more respiratory problems. Most patients don't die of covid. They die from conditions created by Covid.

You are completely wrong when you dismiss replication rate. The initial load of the virus picked up by the patient is rarely sufficient to cause any problem. It is replication of virus in the load that cause the problem. This virus, depending on the strain will replicate in 8 to 10 hours. So, 100,000 virus particles becomes 200,000 in 8 hrs, 400,000 in 16 hrs, 800,000 in 32 hrs, etc. By the time the body has developed a sufficient immune response to slow down replication, the virus is well establish and doing harm to body. The major value of the vaccine is it teaches the cells to recognize the virus and start the immune response much faster thus limiting the numbers replicated and thus reducing the spread of the virus in the body. In short, limiting the replication of the virus in the earliest stages is the key to limiting damage to the body.
You've been going on about this for days now. Who are you trying to convince, you or me. If it is me, you might as well quit now. I don't trust the gov't, WHO, CDC or Fauci and especially not you. I have as much knowledge of the situation as you do--so run along.
 

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