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CDZ What would it take to change your mind re: 2020?

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A simple question: What, specifically, would change your mind regarding the legitimacy/illegitimacy of the 2020 election? Or, if a complete change is too much, what specifically would make you seriously question and reconsider your current view?

Is there anything? I've taken to asking this question around and been surprised to find that, despite the various calls for more investigations and audits, a great many people will openly declare that no conceivable findings could ever change their minds. Have our conclusions all become so absolute that they're immune to any possible evidence?
 
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I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.
 

Faun

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I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.
There have already been recounts and audits and none of them changed the minds of conspiracy nuts who only want to hear there was fraud. Had those recounts and audits had uncovered fraud, I would have believed it. But when we had Trump's own appointees like Barr and Krebs say there was no widespread fraud. And we had Republican-led election boards like Arizona and Georgia saying there was no widespread fraud. And no widespread fraud was found, I had no choice but to accept that.
 

Dogmaphobe

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I base my opinion on what I can observe.

I have watched election results for 5 decades, and have never seen states simply suspennd vote counting -- especially in tightly contested states. In 2020, no fewer than six states did so. All were tightly contested. All had Democrat Governors. Trump was in the lead in all when they closed down and was trailing when they resumed.

That is what I observed.

What would it take to make me change my mind on what happened? Right off hand, I would say massive amounts of mind altering chemicals and a few weeks of torture.
 

Faun

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I base my opinion on what I can observe.

I have watched election results for 5 decades, and have never seen states simply suspennd vote counting -- especially in tightly contested states. In 2020, no fewer than six states did so. All were tightly contested. All had Democrat Governors. Trump was in the lead in all when they closed down and was trailing when they resumed.

That is what I observed.

What would it take to make me change my mind on what happened? Right off hand, I would say massive amounts of mind altering chemicals and a few weeks of torture.
Oh? Which states stopped counting?

 

Hellokitty

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I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.


You say the AZ audit seems sketchy, but how much do you know about how the GA audits were conducted?

 

StormAl

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I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.
There have already been recounts and audits and none of them changed the minds of conspiracy nuts who only want to hear there was fraud. Had those recounts and audits had uncovered fraud, I would have believed it. But when we had Trump's own appointees like Barr and Krebs say there was no widespread fraud. And we had Republican-led election boards like Arizona and Georgia saying there was no widespread fraud. And no widespread fraud was found, I had no choice but to accept that.
some real evidence?
 

TNHarley

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Real evidence of massive fraud.
I am sure fraud happens, but not enough to swing the election like that. It would take A LOT.
The way states just changed their election laws was bull, though.
 

22lcidw

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I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.
There have already been recounts and audits and none of them changed the minds of conspiracy nuts who only want to hear there was fraud. Had those recounts and audits had uncovered fraud, I would have believed it. But when we had Trump's own appointees like Barr and Krebs say there was no widespread fraud. And we had Republican-led election boards like Arizona and Georgia saying there was no widespread fraud. And no widespread fraud was found, I had no choice but to accept that.
The elites are in power. They control most of everything. They can do near what they want. However the wild card would be civil discourse or a thermonuclear exchange.
 

K9Buck

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A simple question: What, specifically, would change your mind regarding the legitimacy/illegitimacy of the 2020 election? Or, if a complete change is too much, what specifically would make you seriously question and reconsider your current view?

Is there anything? I've taken to asking this question around and been surprised to find that, despite the various calls for more investigations and audits, a great many people will openly declare that no conceivable findings could ever change their minds. Have our conclusions all become so absolute that they're immune to any possible evidence?

In contested jurisdictions, EVERYTHING needs to be audited by teams of people from the Biden campaign, the Trump campaign, and other organizations. Every ballot, machine, poll worker, and voter must be audited. It must be open and transparent to the point that it's all televised for the whole world to see. NOTHING should be done in secret.
 

Lastamender

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Only 16 people have been brought up on criminal charges for attempting to vote illegally. some of them are Republicans. Yet to many still promote the big lie. The lie that is endangering our Democracy.
The big lie is that there was no fraud. Why do you think every attempt to prove the election was fair is blocked by Democrats? If you have not seen what can only be admitting obvious guilt I think you have got problems.
 

StormAl

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Only 16 people have been brought up on criminal charges for attempting to vote illegally. some of them are Republicans. Yet to many still promote the big lie. The lie that is endangering our Democracy.
The big lie is that there was no fraud. Why do you think every attempt to prove the election was fair is blocked by Democrats? If you have not seen what can only be admitting obvious guilt I think you have got problems.
SCOTUS and a majority of the judges lean conservative and many of them to Trump.

Why did none of them agree with you, Lastamender?
 

Lastamender

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Only 16 people have been brought up on criminal charges for attempting to vote illegally. some of them are Republicans. Yet to many still promote the big lie. The lie that is endangering our Democracy.
The big lie is that there was no fraud. Why do you think every attempt to prove the election was fair is blocked by Democrats? If you have not seen what can only be admitting obvious guilt I think you have got problems.
SCOTUS and a majority of the judges lean conservative and many of them to Trump.

Why did none of them agree with you, Lastamender?
Because they are scared and corrupted by the corrupt people that surround them.
 
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You say the AZ audit seems sketchy, but how much do you know about how the GA audits were conducted?


Well, I know more about it now, so thanks for that. It seems that the Tennessee Star doesn't actually claim evidence that the audit (very specifically the signature audit in Cobb County) was dishonest, they just disagree with its approach.

Regardless, the reasons that I'm inclined to trust the GA audit are (1) the high state officials who oversaw it were Republicans and, at least to that point, pro-Trump Republicans who had supported and been supported by Trump. IF they were the sort of people who cheated in elections or election audits, both their political principles AND their personal self-interests would be furthered by cheating FOR Trump, not against him. As it is, Kemp and Raffensperger will almost certainly lose their offices because they rejected claims of fraud.
And (2) as the Star points out, the audit was conducted by GA law enforcement officers and I find it extremely unlikely that a substantial number of LEOs from Georgia would conspire to steal an election for Joe Biden without even one of them blowing the whistle about it. Were they handwriting experts? No. But if the fraud was truly rampant, then those guys should have been able to track down at least a few bad ones. They came up with zilch.
There simply comes a point where you can no longer keep claiming that everyone who reports "no fraud" must be ALSO be part of the vast conspiracy. For me at least, trying to shove the likes of Kemp, Raffensperger, and the GBI into the pro-Biden conspiracy pushes it well beyond the realm of credibility.
 
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The elites are in power. They control most of everything. They can do near what they want....

In the case of the 2020 election, the "elites" in power included the likes of Ducey in Arizona, Kemp in Georgia, Barr as the AG, and a slew of conservative judges at all levels of the judiciary, all people Trump personally endorsed and/or appointed to their "elite" positions.

All of them flipped loyalties and betrayed their oaths at the same time? All of them conspired together and (in many cases) doomed their careers to get their political enemies elected?
 

emilynghiem

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I support going back to the contested states that had more "unnotarized" mailin ballots than the margin of votes almost evenly tied in close races. And agree to notarize those votes to confirm actually numbers counted by agreed standards and process everyone supports.

If states still come up with close races and ties, I recommend splitting votes proportionally as well as separating tax bases by party representation and policy.

The real test for me is whether taxpayers and voters agree to pay for the policies thet vote for. If you only vote for parties or policies because you expect "other taxpayers" to pay for those policies, then we need to separate parties from govt to assess a true count of votes for internal party policies vs votes for external public policy.
 

Lastamender

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I base my opinion on what I can observe.

I have watched election results for 5 decades, and have never seen states simply suspennd vote counting -- especially in tightly contested states. In 2020, no fewer than six states did so. All were tightly contested. All had Democrat Governors. Trump was in the lead in all when they closed down and was trailing when they resumed.

That is what I observed.

What would it take to make me change my mind on what happened? Right off hand, I would say massive amounts of mind altering chemicals and a few weeks of torture.
Oh? Which states stopped counting?

Fact checkers are bought and paid for. They are not credible.
 

Faun

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I base my opinion on what I can observe.

I have watched election results for 5 decades, and have never seen states simply suspennd vote counting -- especially in tightly contested states. In 2020, no fewer than six states did so. All were tightly contested. All had Democrat Governors. Trump was in the lead in all when they closed down and was trailing when they resumed.

That is what I observed.

What would it take to make me change my mind on what happened? Right off hand, I would say massive amounts of mind altering chemicals and a few weeks of torture.
Oh? Which states stopped counting?

Fact checkers are bought and paid for. They are not credible.
LOLOL

But Trump is, right, nutjob?
 

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